Why I believe in Christ

[Spirit of Light]

Have you ever actually read the bible? If so, where does Matt 27 say that Jesus was a god, and why Jesus asked his god why it had forsaken him when he was being executed by the Romans for sedition?

Yes have read the Bible.

And Jesus said unto him; “thou sayest” which is the same as if he had said, "I am" (see Matthew 26:25 compared with Mark 14:62), and that this was the sense of his answer is clear from (John 18:36). Though, at the same time, he let him know that his kingdom was not of this world. That he was not a temporal king, nor did he lay any claim to any earthly dominions; and therefore, neither he nor his master Caesar, had anything to fear from him.

He was only a king in a spiritual sense, over the Israel of God; such as received him, as the Messiah, and believed in his name. I do not believe that Pontius Pilate meant this in a way that would trap Jesus. I believe he truly wanted to know if Jesus truly was the king of the Jews. Jesus, here again, did not give him an answer that would settle the matter. He just said, you say I am.

 

[metis]

You seem to be laboring under that falacy that Judaism gave birth to Christianity. It did not.

You've gotta be kidding.

I'm done.

 

[Mitty]

Yes have read the Bible.
And Jesus said unto him; “thou sayest” which is the same as if he had said, "I am" (see Matthew 26:25 compared with Mark 14:62), and that this was the sense of his answer is clear from (John 18:36). Though, at the same time, he let him know that his kingdom was not of this world. That he was not a temporal king, nor did he lay any claim to any earthly dominions; and therefore, neither he nor his master Caesar, had anything to fear from him.
He was only a king in a spiritual sense, over the Israel of God; such as received him, as the Messiah, and believed in his name. I do not believe that Pontius Pilate meant this in a way that would trap Jesus. I believe he truly wanted to know if Jesus truly was the king of the Jews. Jesus, here again, did not give him an answer that would settle the matter. He just said, you say I am.

None of your personal opinion changes the fact that Jesus didn't claim to be a god when he cursed his god for forsaking him while he was being executed by the Romans for sedition and falsely claiming to be the "King of the Jews".

 

[Mitty]

You seem to be laboring under that falacy that Judaism gave birth to Christianity. It did not.

So why did Jesus say that every jot and tittle of OT law still applies till heaven and earth pass when all is fulfilled (Matt 5:17-19) if you claim that Christianity didn't evolve from Judaism?

Or are you referring to Paulianity and not Christianity, given that Paul never even met Jesus and didn't refer to Jesus' life and his message of tolerance?

 

[OtherSheep]

Yes have read the Bible.

And Jesus said unto him; “thou sayest” which is the same as if he had said, "I am" (see Matthew 26:25 compared with Mark 14:62), and that this was the sense of his answer is clear from (John 18:36).
Though, at the same time, he let him know that his kingdom was not of this world. That he was not a temporal king, nor did he lay any claim to any earthly dominions; and therefore, neither he nor his master Caesar, had anything to fear from him.

He was only a king in a spiritual sense, over the Israel of God; such as received him, as the Messiah, and believed in his name.
I do not believe that Pontius Pilate meant this in a way that would trap Jesus.
I believe he truly wanted to know if Jesus truly was the king of the Jews. Jesus, here again, did not give him an answer that would settle the matter. He just said, you say I am.

--Matthew 26:22 says the others asked if it was them. Jesus never answered them. Judas, when he asked, is told "thou sayest"... pretty much like 'you wouldn't ask if it couldn't be true'.
--The Kingdom not of this world was only a threat to Jerusalem.
--The "king in a spiritual sense" would have set up the Davidic Kingdom, which would have made Jesus the King in a literal sense... THEN, not in the time of the Kingdom on Earth... but the Pharisees have to be removed for that to work at all. When the False Prophet is tossed into... some say the sun... the Davidic Kingdom will come.
--Pilate was being an honest judge, all the way through.
--Jesus is saying that He knew Pilate believed Him to be the Messiah. All through the questioning, Jesus is speaking to someone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah. Pilate's world-weary "what is truth" is the man whose soul is crying out for some kind of truth, anywhere. In Jesus, Pilate has found the source.

 

[Mitty]

--Pilate was being an honest judge, all the way through.
--Jesus is saying that He knew Pilate believed Him to be the Messiah. All through the questioning, Jesus is speaking to someone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah. Pilate's world-weary "what is truth" is the man whose soul is crying out for some kind of truth, anywhere. In Jesus, Pilate has found the source.

And that's why the Romans executed him for sedition and mocked him as the false "King of the Jews" if they believed that he was the deliverer of the Jews from the Roman oppression (ie a messiah) as you claim. Which is why Peter denied knowing Jesus to avoid being executed for sedition too (Matt 26:69-74), and why the Jews avoided retaliation from the Romans also.
History of the Jews in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia.

You know it makes sense!!!

 

[danieldemol]

"Why do you not believe in Chirst?"

I don't believe in Jesus being God because He is too imperfect to be called God, for example there is stuff he didn't know (Matthew 24:26), he had to grow in wisdom (Luke 2:52) unlike the Omniscient God, he seemed unaware of scientific facts such as that death existed in the world long before Adam was born etc

 

[mmarco]

I don't believe in Jesus being God because He is too imperfect to be called God, for example there is stuff he didn't know (Matthew 24:26), he had to grow in wisdom (Luke 2:52) unlike the Omniscient God, he seemed unaware of scientific facts such as that death existed in the world long before Adam was born etc

You must understand that in the person of Christ, God assumed truly the human nature; He was a true man, like each of us, except for sin. In Christ, God renounced to His infinite knowledge and power, and lived as a common human being, and He suffered and died like a common human being. Therefore Jesus had the same culture of a Jew of 2000 years ago.
God is out of time, and in His "out-of.time" existence He is always alive , omniscient and omnipotent.
In His omnipotence, God has also the power to enter time and history as a human being in order to prove to us how much He loves us.

 

[danieldemol]

In Christ, God renounced to His infinite knowledge and power

If God renounced His knowledge and power, then how do you know He is God and not just a man without infinite knowledge and power? For example suppose I told you I am God, and you asked me to prove it by telling something only you would know, it seems too easy to just say "I have renounced my infinite knowledge" as any fraud could do that.

Also why would it even be necessary to renounce infinite knowledge to prove how much God loves us? I would argue that keeping that infinite knowledge would prove that it was God, and that it was necessary to prove it was God to prove it was God who loved us and not an imposter.

Finally I disagree that Jesus was sinless, Jesus did not build the temple of the money changers, men did, therefore the temple belonged to those men who built it and Jesus had no right to go on a rampage overturning the property of others there.

 

[mmarco]

If God renounced His knowledge and power, then how do you know He is God and not just a man without infinite knowledge and power?

It is the greatness of His teachings and of the concept of divine love that He taught that is sufficient to prove to me that Chirst is God.
The idea that God loves us to the point to assume the human nature and suffer a terrible death in order to save us, entered history through Jesus Chirst. Since I believe that God is the source of all true love and true goodness, the christian concept of divine love proves to me that Christ is the true God.

Also why would it even be necessary to renounce infinite knowledge to prove how much God loves us?

Because, in this way, Jesus lived as a true human being and suffered and died as a true human being.

I would argue that keeping that infinite knowledge would prove that it was God, and that it was necessary to prove it was God to prove it was God who loved us and not an imposter.

Actually, Jesus performed also many miracles; omniscience was by means necessary for Him to prove He was God.
However, my point is that, even if we cannot see directly His miracles, we can understand that He is God because of the greatness of His message.

Finally I disagree that Jesus was sinless, Jesus did not build the temple of the money changers, men did, therefore the temple belonged to those men who built it and Jesus had no right to go on a rampage overturning the property of others there.

Absolutely false. The temple was not built by the money changers, who were absolutely guilty for using the temple as a market; the temple is a place for prayer.

 

[danieldemol]

Absolutely false. The temple was not built by the money changers, who were absolutely guilty for using the temple as a market; the temple is a place for prayer.

I did not say it was built by the money changers, I said it was built by men. And since when is a place for prayer a place for throwing a tantrum?

 

[mmarco]

I did not say it was built by the money changers, I said it was built by men. And since when is a place for prayer a place for throwing a tantrum?

A place for prayer must be used for prayer; it is obvious. Those who use a temple as a market to make money are guilty, and since Chirst is God, He has the authority to punish them.

 

[danieldemol]

It is the greatness of His teachings and of the concept of divine love that He taught that is sufficient to prove to me that Chirst is God.
The idea that God loves us to the point to assume the human nature and suffer a terrible death in order to save us, entered history through Jesus Chirst. Since I believe that God is the source of all true love and true goodness, the christian concept of divine love proves to me that Christ is the true God.

I would suggest that you have a very twisted sense of goodness if you believe that God required the cruel death of either God's self or God's Son in order to grant forgiveness. Such things may well be sufficient proof to the heavily indoctrinated, but to me it is a bizarre-ity, not a sign of normal love or compassion.

Say you wronged me, and asked for my forgiveness. And I said, "sure, but not till I kill myself or my son will your repentance be acceptable." Would this truly be loving of me? Would it be true goodness of me? I'm just not seeing your point at all. But perhaps I never will get why you entertain such weird conclusions as I have not recieved your indoctrination.

 

[mmarco]

I would suggest that you have a very twisted sense of goodness if you believe that God required the cruel death of either God's self or God's Son in order to grant forgiveness.

You have totally misunderstood my meanng. Let me try to explain my view.
I believe that God loves us infinitely, and He desires to lead each of us to the true life and true and eternal happiness, a condition existing only in communion with God. But God cannot tolerate evil and sin, because they are incompatible with His good and holy nature. A deep interior change is then necessary for all of us to reach the eternal happiness; we must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires. God has the power to change us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in comunion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).
In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ's Passion.

In conclusion, it is our obstinate egoism, pride, sinful desires and distrust in God that makes Christ's Passion necessary.

 

[Mitty]

[

You must understand that in the person of Christ, God assumed truly the human nature; He was a true man, like each of us, except for sin. In Christ, God renounced to His infinite knowledge and power, and lived as a common human being, and He suffered and died like a common human being. Therefore Jesus had the same culture of a Jew of 2000 years ago.
God is out of time, and in His "out-of.time" existence He is always alive , omniscient and omnipotent.
In His omnipotence, God has also the power to enter time and history as a human being in order to prove to us how much He loves us.

Did Abraham's god assume truly the human nature too when that god shared a meal with Abraham and had a face to face discussion about the number of righteous children in Sodom before the god went down to Sodom to count them, since it was neither omniscient or omnipresent (Gen 18)?

 

[Mitty]

Yes have read the Bible.

Hmmmm!!!

And Jesus said unto him; “thou sayest” which is the same as if he had said, "I am" (see Matthew 26:25 compared with Mark 14:62), and that this was the sense of his answer is clear from (John 18:36).

Since you claim that you have read the bible, then what has Judas asking Jesus "Master, is it I" (Matt 26:25) got to do with Jesus saying that "I am" and not Judas (Mark 14:62) and Jesus saying that he lived in a fantasy world (John 18:36) and why Peter denied knowing Jesus and cursed him to avoid being executed by the Romans for sedition too (Matt 26:60-75 Mark 14:66-72)?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So, basically not in the lifetime of any human living before the tribulation period, only those who have endured the persecution of the antichrist during the tribulation period? As I said, No. That's not for us. Only a very small, select few, in some future dystopian nightmare.......This is so battle-torn. I'm looking for love. Not some victors in some ego-climax at the end of times.

I find No anti-Christ person is Scripture but anyone who is against Jesus is: anti-Christ.- 1 John 2:18,22
Not the ' end of times ' but the 'end time' of badness on Earth - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13
Earth abides forever according to Ecclesiastes 1:4 B, so it is the end of the wickedness on Earth - Psalms 92:7
The coming time of separation on earth of Matthew 25:31-33,37 has nothing to do with any one particular person.
Armageddon is Not some nightmare because God will bring an end to war on Earth - see Psalms 46:9
What will trigger the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 is when the nations surprisingly turn on the religious world.
As the end came hard and swift in Noah's day, and hard and swift for Sodom and Gomorrah, so the end of the wicked will be hard and swift.
The 'executional words from Jesus' mouth' will rid the Earth of the wicked as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
Then, Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

[
Did Abraham's god assume truly the human nature too when that god shared a meal with Abraham and had a face to face discussion about the number of righteous children in Sodom before the god went down to Sodom to count them, since it was neither omniscient or omnipresent (Gen 18)?

Remember: Parents are responsible for minor children, so those children would Not have grown up to be righteous adults - 1 Corinthians 7:14 B.
We can't read hearts but God knows the point of No repentance.
This will prove true at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Which is why Moses & Noah & Abraham & David weren't saved and never went to heaven (John 3:13) even though David was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:6-7).

Those who died before Jesus died can have a happy and healthy physical resurrection during Jesus' millennial reign over Earth.
This is why the ' future tense ' is used that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection............Acts of the apostles 24:15

 

[Mitty]

Those who died before Jesus died can have a happy and healthy physical resurrection during Jesus' millennial reign over Earth.
This is why the ' future tense ' is used that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection............Acts of the apostles 24:15

Do you have any evidence that Moses & Noah & Abraham believed in Jesus, or is that why they never went to heaven (John 3:13) even though Acts 24:15 says that both the just and unjust will be resurrected? And is this why both believers and unbelievers are saved and even if they don't tithe to preacher-men selling after-death salvation (1Tim 4:9-11)?