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Duties of the Messiah (Primarily Aimed at Christians)
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
Look, I am actually trying to be charitable. All I've asked is for Christians to give verses from the Tanakh - which has thousands of them - that describe what the Messiah is meant to do and be. Since Christianity is a religion based around their percieved messiah, who they believe is predicted in the Tanakh, it shouldn't be too hard.
Just remember: you started this mess. My challenge to you is to guess how many posts it will take before someone quotes 2 Timothy or Revelations.
* (extra points if its a "double application" and both are quoted in the same post)
rosends
Well-Known Member
So a entire chapter, linear in its logic can be mined for isolated passages and the claim can be made that those snippets, in a vacuum, then refer to something else?
rosends
Well-Known Member
So you are claiming that Rabbi Kimchi (a non-Christian, writing well after the fact) was saying that the text is about 2 kinds of exiles? You aren't commentating on the text, but invoking the opinion of a Jewish scholar, and now saying that this Jewish scholar meant something which would give foundational basis to Christianity even though it is never mentioned or considered in Judaism? That the "double application" is from the mouth of a rabbi who would not have believed in a double application? Sure, combine this with an "in a vacuum" selecting of text from anywhere else and you can support whatever you want. But by that logic, the first amendment says "congress shall make no law" so why does congress make laws?
He was likely an Hellenized Jew in the diaspora. He was almost certainly basing his gMt 1:22-23 on a Greek translation and, therefore, demonstrated no close associate with the Hebrew text. Unfortunately you guts ended up stuck with your Virgin Birth legend.It was Jewish Matthew who said it.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
My favorite verses about the Old Testament Messiah is that His coming with power, glory and rule
of the nations is met with mourning by the Jews - for they see it's the same lowly man they killed.
That's in Zech 9 and 12 if I recall.
Its a great question @Rival. I visited our cities synagogue for the first time earlier this month. The Jewish community hosted our interfaith council. The purpose of our council is fundamentally about promoting better relations between faith communities. We avoid contentious topics such as messianic claims. We know each other’s views but are comfortable with diversity of thought and recognise we are unlikely to change each other’s beliefs.
What is much more important than belief is the manner we conduct ourselves and the attitudes we take to each other. So with those thoughts in mind the question you ask is important not just for Jews and Christians, but Baha’is from a Christian background too. Muslims largely avoid the argument by declaring both the Tanakh and NT corrupt and superseded by the Quran.
It is clear from the NT Jesus was an itinerant Jewish preacher who taught an almost exclusively Jewish audience with reference to the Tanakh. Jesus and His Disciples understood Jesus to be a fulfilment of some Jewish Prophecies at a time of intense Messianic expectation.
Its all a matter of interpretation of course. Here’s a few verses for starters:
Jesus' name will be 'Immanuel'. Matthew 1:22-23, Isaiah 7:14
'Out of Egypt I called my son'. Matthew 2:18. Hosea 11:1
A ruler will come from Bethlehem. Matthew 2:6, Micah 5:2
The massacre of the innocents. Matthew 2:18, Jeremiah 31:15
Beyond the Jordan, the people who sat in darkness saw a great light. Matthew 4:15, Isaiah 9:1-2
He Himself took our infirmities/ and bore our sicknesses. Matthew 8:17, Isaiah 53:4
Prophetic praise of Jesus, His character and ministry to the Gentiles. Matthew 12:18-21, Isaiah 42:1-4
He will speak in parables. Matthew 13:35, Psalms 78:2
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Matthew 21:4-5, Zechariah 9:9
Thou knowest.
So... how do the Sages know when it is talking about the Messiah?
I wasn't offended. i hope I didn't come across as such. I actually had a smile on my face.
BUT, if i give them as requested, why do you debate them?
Just kidding.
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Damnit Adrian time I hate arguing with you!
He's not called Emmanuel though; the angel tells Mary to call him Jesus.
This one is about Israel.
This one is about the Jews in exile.
This is about Israel.
Israel, arguably.
This is about Israel and/or Isaiah himself.
This is in first person from the author of the psalm.
Yep.
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Because this is a debate thread
I am looking for you to show me verses that support things like G-d sacrificing Himself as the Messiah (Heaven forbid); belief and salvation through the Messiah; the Torah no longer being necessary because of the Messiah (G-d forbid) and these kinds of things. These are the things that fit the Christian concept of Messiah so where are they predicted? Where does it say the Messiah has to do these things? And if they're not predicted what's the justification for them?
I think the Torah is very necessary!Because this is a debate thread
I am looking for you to show me verses that support things like G-d sacrificing Himself as the Messiah (Heaven forbid); belief and salvation through the Messiah; the Torah no longer being necessary because of the Messiah (G-d forbid) and these kinds of things. These are the things that fit the Christian concept of Messiah so where are they predicted? Where does it say the Messiah has to do these things? And if they're not predicted what's the justification for them?
I don't think so. I think he was a Jew following the Pharisees who were anti-Hellenistic in interpretation.
I believe this was part of it too.
53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
So where are Jesus' children?
I don't want to have my church rise or fall based on my inept posts, so I'll just wait this one out.
I think my answer is pure gold and rocks the boat.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
Greets. I was just about to take a nap when I logged on and saw this question. Thought I would share some thoughts. Firstly, I respect the Jews. I lived for a long time in a large community of Jews in Glendale, Colorado. Had several neighbors that were Jews. In fact I would babysit my neighbor's son after school until she got off of work and they were both Jews. And I have had many stimulating conversations with Jews. The orthodox Jew and a Jehovah's Witness have a lot in common. I think it is improper to disrespect another person's beliefs. And when I can use what a person believes in to help persuade them to understand something I try.
Even Paul said 'I became all things to all people that I might somehow save some.' He was a Jew. And when he was around Jews he still performed the Jewish customs so as not to offend a Jew. When the Sanhedrin was trying to convict him to death he used a rift that was between the Jewish sects of the Sadducees (who did not believe in the resurrection) and the Pharisees. Paul said he was being condemned on the fact that he believed in the resurrection. That got a lot of Pharisees to actually take his side.
The very first prophecy I can think of referring to the Messiah is in Genesis 3:15. Talking to the serpent Jehovah God said:
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”-Genesis 3:15.
The serpent was not the source of the deception against Eve. So God was talking to the spirit that used the serpent to lie to Eve. He said that there would be two offspring. One of the serpent, and one of the woman. This Messiah, the seed, or offspring, would crush the head of the serpent.
After the flood Jehovah turns his attention to his faithful servant Abram and turns his name to Abraham (meaning father of a crowd or many). And he said this about the offspring (singular, not plural, that is to one person, the Messiah that was to come, and not all his descendants):
"And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”-Genesis 22:18.
So by means of the Messiah all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Everyone would be blessed by means of him. Not just the Jews.
Jehovah God made his covenant with Abraham on Nisan 14, 1943 B. C. E. 430 years later Moses lead the Israelites out of slavery to the Egyptians on Nisan 14, 1513 B. C. E. Just as was foretold that they would be there for 400 years:
"Then He said to Aʹbram: “Know for certain that your offspring will be foreigners in a land not theirs and that the people there will enslave them and afflict them for 400 years."-Genesis 15:13.
Later God reaffirmed that covenant with Abraham's son Isaac, the son through Sarah, and not his concubine Hagar (who birthed Abraham his firstborn Ishmael). Abraham also had 6 other sons with a concubine after Sarah died. -Genesis 25:1, 2. One of them was Midian. Later a priest of Midian would give his daughter Zapaorrah to the Messiah, Moses.
Jacob's name was turned to Israel, and on his deathbed he foretold that Messiah would come through the lineage of his forth son, Judah:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiʹloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong."-Genesis 49:10.
Here we are told that peoples (plural not just the Jews) would serve the Messiah. That is he would be king over them. The commander's staff and the scepter both represent authority and power to rule.
Almost 2,000 years after God made the covenant with Abraham, an everlasting promise that would never be broken, he continued to reveal his purpose concerning the covenant to Abraham, and made the covenant with King David:
"I will raise up your offspring after you, your own son, and I will firmly establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my name, and I will firmly establish the throne of his kingdom forever."-2 Samuel 7:12, 13.
The Messiah would thus be king and have an everlasting rulership.
That the Messiah was not only to rule as king but also as priest is seen in the prophecy of Psalm 110:
Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”
Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force.
In splendid holiness, from the womb of the dawn,
You have your company of young men just like dewdrops.
Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever
In the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!”
-Psalm 110:1-4.
This actually tells us that the Messiah would rule in the midst of his enemies and subdue them. And it has been sworn, an oath, by God himself that he is a priest, "In the manner of Melchizedek."
How could a priest come out of the tribe of Judah if the tribe of Levi had the priesthood? This was not a priesthood based on the Mosaic law covenant given to the Israelites. We are told by Jehovah God in this prophecy that is not the case. It is a priesthood in the manner of Melchizedek.
Now Melchizedek was the king and priest of Salem before any offspring came out of Abraham's loins. And it was the priest Melchizedek who blessed Abraham, and by extension all of his descendants. And the one who blesses is greater than the one being blessed. So the priesthood and kingship the Messiah would attain is of far superior and lasting value than that of the priesthood of Levi and Aaron.
The Isarelites weren't even supposed to have a human ruler under the Mosaic law. It was their insistence on having one that God finally relinquished and had Samuel anoint Saul of the tribe of Benjamin as king, and then later David of the tribe of Judah. Among others.
So we have seen that the Messiah would crush and end the rebellion that started in the garden of Eden, by giving a head wound to the serpent. He would come in the line of Judah, he would command the subjugation of many peoples, not just the Jews. That all peoples of the earth would be blessed by means of him. That he would have an everlasting kingdom and would rule as king and priest forever.
That he was God's son and that God would give his son not only the rulership over Isreal but over the entire earth is told us in prophecy in Psalm 2:
"Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
He said to me: “You are my son;
Today I have become your father.
Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance
And the ends of the earth as your possession."
-Psalm 2:7, 8.
So the Messiah receives the entire earth as his inheritance. Jehovah God gives it to him to rule.
Daniel forsees the coronation of the Messiah. And it is not done on earth, but heaven itself:
“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."-Daniel 7:13, 14.
In this vision the "son of man," the designation given to this spirit creature in heaven, gains access to the very throne of Jehovah God. That means this spirit would become human, he would be born on earth as a "son of man," and thus rightly carry this title as well as "son of God." And the Ancient of Days, that is Jehovah God, would give him rulership, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve even him.
So the Messiah will rule the entire earth. It is a heavenly kingdom. And Daniel also tells us that by means of the government in heaven all present human rulerships will be brought to nothing:
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever."-Daniel 2:44.
This is a very small, but very important glimpse of what the Hebrew Scriptures tell us about the Messiah and what he will do for humankind. There are many other prophecies!
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