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Moses said, Unto him ye shall hearken

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You should read about them. :)

Atonement as I understand it (I'm not a Rabbi) would come from a higher order offering / sacrafice called an Olah offering as opposed to a Pesach offering. Olah is a higher order, Pesach is a lower order.

Burnt offering (Judaism) - Wikipedia

What you say has interesting repercussions. Does the son of Joseph precede the son of David on earth? If so, was Jesus [at his first coming] the suffering servant, the son of Joseph? Did Jesus fulfil all the law regarding Pesach, but not Yom Kippur? Will Yom Kippur be fulfilled at the [second] coming of the King of Kings?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I do not view Luke as authoritative, I don't recognize him as an expert on Jewish expectations (which were, in any event, varied), and I certainly don't consider him to be a source of Torah insight.

I think you'll find that he had excellent insight! Let's not forget that he was there, mixing with the people, and recording the events.

An open-minded approach to this challenge would be to read the words of Luke and criticize the text where you believe you have found mistakes. I'd be interested to know what you find!
 

Mitty

Active Member
The Jewish religious authorities brought the case against Jesus, and Pilate at first considered it purely a matter of Jewish law; until they claimed that Jesus was undermining the authority of Rome.
Which is why the Romans executed him for sedition, and why they mocked him as the false "King of the Jews".

Pilate knew that Jesus had been proclaimed king by his followers [Matthew 27:11], but he also knew that the religious authorities did not want to see a public notice proclaiming a belief that they did not hold to be true ['We have no king but Caesar']. [John 19:19-22] Pilate refused to change the wording, despite the chief priests lobbying for a change.
In other words a handful of people also thought that Jesus had an inherited right to be the Jewish king because of his link to David based on the genealogy for his adoptive father (Matt 1) and for his supposed biological father (Luke 3), even though paternity is just a matter of opinion. Which is why Peter denied knowing Jesus to avoid being executed for sedition too.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
That the passage sets guidelines to identifying who is and who isn't a proper prophet, without it being a prophecy towards any specific individual.

Deuteronomy 18:15. 'The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him shall ye hearken;'

Are you seriously suggesting that this verse does not refer to a specific person?

Why, therefore, do both Peter (Acts 3:22) and Stephen (Acts 7:37) quote this verse when speaking to fellow Jews in the first century?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you seriously suggesting that this verse does not refer to a specific person?
Yes, I am.
Why, therefore, do both Peter (Acts 3:22) and Stephen (Acts 7:37) quote this verse when speaking to fellow Jews in the first century?
Classic Christians reading Jesus into every verse of the Torah. Please don't forget that Jeremiah essentially emulated this passage when he spoke to the Chananiah ben Azur in ch. 28. Chananiah prophecied in the name of God but falsely, and so died:
"But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'"

"Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the prophet: 'Hear now, Hananiah; the LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie.
'Therefore thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will send thee away from off the face of the earth; this year thou shalt die, because thou hast spoken perversion against the LORD.'
So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month."​
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Which is why the Romans executed him for sedition, and why they mocked him as the false "King of the Jews".

In other words a handful of people also thought that Jesus had an inherited right to be the Jewish king because of his link to David based on the genealogy for his adoptive father (Matt 1) and for his supposed biological father (Luke 3), even though paternity is just a matter of opinion. Which is why Peter denied knowing Jesus to avoid being executed for sedition too.
I very much doubt that the common folk in the first century checked out Jesus' genealogy. What attracted the crowds was the authority of his teaching and the power of his ministry.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes, I am.

Classic Christians reading Jesus into every verse of the Torah. Please don't forget that Jeremiah essentially emulated this passage when he spoke to the Chananiah ben Azur in ch. 28. Chananiah prophecied in the name of God but falsely, and so died:
"But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'"

"Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the prophet: 'Hear now, Hananiah; the LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie.
'Therefore thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will send thee away from off the face of the earth; this year thou shalt die, because thou hast spoken perversion against the LORD.'
So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month."​
This has nothing to do with 'that prophet' who would be like Moses!
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
This has nothing to do with 'that prophet' who would be like Moses!
Hey, you brought an entire passage. I showed the clear connection between part of it and Jeremiah. Hence, that emphasizes flaws in your theory that the entire passage is a prophecy towards a specific person. Voila.
 

Mitty

Active Member
Deuteronomy 18:15. 'The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him shall ye hearken;'

Are you seriously suggesting that this verse does not refer to a specific person?

Why, therefore, do both Peter (Acts 3:22) and Stephen (Acts 7:37) quote this verse when speaking to fellow Jews in the first century?
In other words Moses was telling his three million relatives that Joshua was going to become their prophet/leader when he kicked the bucket in the near future after wandering aimlessly around the middle east deserts for the last forty years.
 

Mitty

Active Member
I very much doubt that the common folk in the first century checked out Jesus' genealogy. What attracted the crowds was the authority of his teaching and the power of his ministry.
So why did the writers of Matt 1 and Luke 3 try to link Jesus to David who was a Jewish king and said that he was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:6-7)?
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm glad we've put that to rest.


I thought you wanted to discuss Deuteronomy 18:15. Or was that simply pretense?

There is no "prophet greater than he was" in the text. Moses was advising the Israelites who are about to enter Canaan without him. He cautions:

[09] When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to imitate the abhorrent practices of those nations.

[10] Let no one be found among you who consigns his son or daughter to the fire, or who is an augur, a soothsayer, a diviner, a sorcerer,

[11] one who casts spells, or one who consults ghosts or familiar spirits, or one who inquires of the dead.

[12] For anyone who does such things is abhorrent to the LORD, and it is because of these abhorrent things that the LORD your God is dispossessing them before you.

[13] You must be wholehearted with the LORD your God.

[14] Those nations that you are about to dispossess do indeed resort to soothsayers and augurs; to you, however, the LORD your God has not assigned the like.

[15] The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed.​

About which we have ...

Rashi

מקרבך מאחיך כמני [THE LORD THY GOD WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEE A PROPHET] FROM THE MIDST OF THEE, OF THY BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO ME — This means: One who is as I am, from your midst, of your brethren, יקים לך WILL HE RAISE UP UNTO THEE in my stead, and so likewise from prophet to prophet throughout all ages.​

Ramban

‘Like myself,’ one who is like I am, from among your brethren. ‘Will raise up for you’ in place of me and so from prophet to prophet through the generations. This is the explanation of Rashi. And R’ Avraham Ibn Ezra says ‘like me,’ meaning just as I am a prophet of the Lord and not a magician or soothsayer. It could be that the phrase ‘from among you’ is to say that you can trust his words because he is your brother from among you. And so it appears to me that ‘like myself’ means that he will be trustworthy to speak as a prophet of the Lord so that you can believe him just as you believe me.​

Chizkuni

מאחיך כמוני, “from amongst your brethren, someone like me;” Moses refers to Joshua in this verse.​

And, in the JPS Torah Commentary: Deuteronomy, Milgrom writes:

The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet That is, "Instead, the Lord your God will raise up for you a profit." This is the direct continuation of verse 14, indicating that Israel is to turn to prophets for the service that pagans seek from diviners and magicians. Since prophets are raised up by God, who will put His word in their mouths, they are His agents, and by turning to them one turns to God.

from among your own people Literally, "from among your own brothers," as on 17:15.

like myself The comparison refers only to the prophetic role that Moses played as God's spokesman.​


Yes, but problems are to be confronted and resolved. There are no guarantees.
If I may be so bold, who might you say is your prophet now? (In this generation? Was it Rebbe Schneerson?)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The Jewish religious authorities brought the case against Jesus, and Pilate at first considered it purely a matter of Jewish law; until they claimed that Jesus was undermining the authority of Rome.

Pilate knew that Jesus had been proclaimed king by his followers [Matthew 27:11], but he also knew that the religious authorities did not want to see a public notice proclaiming a belief that they did not hold to be true ['We have no king but Caesar']. [John 19:19-22] Pilate refused to change the wording, despite the chief priests lobbying for a change.
Here's da thing: if someone believes that Jesus existed and the trial before Pilate took place, do you think he also believes he performed miracles? See, that's the question...
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 18:15-22 speaks of a coming Prophet. Muslims like to associate this passage with Muhammad, whilst Christians believe the Prophet is Jesus Christ.

What do Jews believe?

It appears that your thread has been addressed by various people who are not Jewish. Do you really want to know how Jews view the Torah and the reason why what we say about the Torah is reliable?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I think you'll find that he had excellent insight! Let's not forget that he was there, mixing with the people, and recording the events.

An open-minded approach to this challenge would be to read the words of Luke and criticize the text where you believe you have found mistakes. I'd be interested to know what you find!

We dont' consider Luke to be authoratative for a number of reasons. The information in the text is not accurate of history around the time it is claimed to describe. In fact, even in Christian scholarship the authorship of the gospels is heavily debated.

I created a playlist that can help you with understanding the issues.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXECa6N2EVJVk6DFRCTRtYjeCCwd3kTR-
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So why did the writers of Matt 1 and Luke 3 try to link Jesus to David who was a Jewish king and said that he was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:6-7)?

Because Matthew and Luke were written much later and were more than likely written by people trying to create an origin story for a person whose history is completely absent from Jewish sources from the period. That fact that Matthew and Luke have different genelogies and nothing in the NT explains the differences means that even later Christians have had to create reasons why both are different.

There have been a lot of claimed mashiahh's in Jewish history and there have been many attempts to try to claim each one of them as the guy when they don't meet the requirements found in the Hebrew Tanakh.

There is a good series of videos called "A Rabbi Cross Examines the New Testament." See the link HERE. Here is another one HERE.

Also, this article may help.

Who's genealogy is given by Luke?
 
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