Did God Create the Universe, or Did the Universe Create God?

[Sunstone]

Assuming, for the moment, that there exists a god, on what rational basis, if any, could it be determined that the god was (or was not) a naturally occurring feature of the universe?

Please do not answer that we would know god was of supernatural origin if we could determined that god governed the universe. That would be a failure to acknowledge that god could be an emergent property of the universe, for it is conceivable that an emergent property could be 'greater' than what it emerges from.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We don't know.

 

[Fool]

Assuming, for the moment, that there exists a god, on what rational basis, if any, could it be determined that the god was (or was not) a naturally occurring feature of the universe?

Please do not answer that we would know god was of supernatural origin if we could determined that god governed the universe. That would be a failure to acknowledge that god could be an emergent property of the universe, for it is conceivable that an emergent property could be 'greater' than what it emerges from.

love the uncaused cause, perpetuates itself. god created man in his image to recreate the creating.

 

[sun rise]

Assuming, for the moment, that there exists a god, on what rational basis, if any, could it be determined that the god was (or was not) a naturally occurring feature of the universe?

Since the OP specifically mentioned "rational basis", my answer is there no no rational basis that would allow me to definitively answer the question.

The non-rational bases of experience and scriptures are excluded from this thread by design.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't know how I should respond.

The gods are not transcendent for me, so the two questions end up being the same. The question ends up being "did the gods/universe create the gods/universe?" I mean... yes? I guess? On the rational basis that gods = universe by matter of definition for me?

 

[King Phenomenon]

Universe is another name for god minus moral code

 

[PureX]

When an artist creates a painting, or a sculpture, or a piece of music, he or she then sets it free and sends it out into the world on it's own.

When we encounter that 'art-work', we do not encounter it with it's maker. And we don't know anything about it's maker. Yet as we encounter this artwork, and experience it, and consider it's many details, we begin to "meet it's artist" within it. The artwork begins to reveal the mind and heart and spirit of the artist that created it through all those details. And then because of this 'connection' the artwork gives us to it's maker, we begin to understand or intuit the world through the artist's mind's eye. And experience the world as the artist was experiencing it.

The created 'artwork' is a representational embodiment of it's creator. And if, in the case of universal existence, the 'artwork' is an ongoing event, then the mind and spirit of the "artist" is being revealed to us by it, in time. And that is the "emergent God", I think, of which you speak. It's not that the universe is creating God. It's that the universe is manifesting it's creator as it is fulfilling itself.

Just as are we.

 

[ppp]

Universe is another name for god minus moral code

Or agency. Or subjectivity. Or eternity. Or ability.

 

[idea]

I think the problem lies within the question, as I do not believe there is an origin for any of it. To me, there is no beginning, no ex-nihilo creation, everything has always existed/inter-exists changing form.
The Beginning. by Brig Klyce

 

[idea]

When an artist creates a painting, or a sculpture, or a piece of music, he or she then sets it free and sends it out into the world on it's own.

When we encounter that 'art-work', we do not encounter it with it's maker. And we don't know anything about it's maker. Yet as we encounter this artwork, and experience it, and consider it's many details, we begin to "meet it's artist" within it. The artwork begins to reveal the mind and heart and spirit of the artist that created it through all those details. And then because of this 'connection' the artwork gives us to it's maker, we begin to understand or intuit the world through the artist's mind's eye. And experience the world as the artist was experiencing it.

The created 'artwork' is a representational embodiment of it's creator. And if, in the case of universal existence, the 'artwork' is an ongoing event, then the mind and spirit of the "artist" is being revealed to us by it, in time. And that is the "emergent God", I think, of which you speak. It's not that the universe is creating God. It's that the universe is manifesting it's creator as it is fulfilling itself.

Just as are we.

You could say the artist lives within the art, just as the art lives within the artist. All are inspired and interconnected to one another.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When an artist creates a painting, or a sculpture, or a piece of music, he or she then sets it free and sends it out into the world on it's own.

When we encounter that 'art-work', we do not encounter it with it's maker. And we don't know anything about it's maker. Yet as we encounter this artwork, and experience it, and consider it's many details, we begin to "meet it's artist" within it. The artwork begins to reveal the mind and heart and spirit of the artist that created it through all those details. And then because of this 'connection' the artwork gives us to it's maker, we begin to understand or intuit the world through the artist's mind's eye. And experience the world as the artist was experiencing it.

The created 'artwork' is a representational embodiment of it's creator. And if, in the case of universal existence, the 'artwork' is an ongoing event, then the mind and spirit of the "artist" is being revealed to us by it, in time. And that is the "emergent God", I think, of which you speak. It's not that the universe is creating God. It's that the universe is manifesting it's creator as it is fulfilling itself.

Just as are we.

That's a beautiful way to put it. A step more, when engulfing onesef in the spirit of the painting/artist, let's say, how does one derive morals and edict based on the painting?

I know many religions value tradition to give gratitude or Practice in gratitude creation/creator but to those who find in creation the edict of the creator (or the other way around) how does one do so using this analogy?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Assuming, for the moment, that there exists a god, on what rational basis, if any, could it be determined that the god was (or was not) a naturally occurring feature of the universe?

Please do not answer that we would know god was of supernatural origin if we could determined that god governed the universe. That would be a failure to acknowledge that god could be an emergent property of the universe, for it is conceivable that an emergent property could be 'greater' than what it emerges from.

I'd say god is the core/flow/the act of the universe (or everything and living that exist) that shapes, forms, and (in human perspective) create or brings things into being from random things (lack of better word).

Here is something of interest:

(6:55 min segment)

Some say god is the order of the universe. Maybe we put order in the universe, and god is the function or motor that shapes that random universe into being.

As for morals, edicts, etc... maybe this is a deist perspective, I don't know. Shaping the universe into being doesn't signify there is means for humans to interact with it as a person or entity.

 

[Valjean]

How bizarre!
This is Medieval French, (and I'm skeptical about some of the pronunciation)
Quite fascinating, though. Thanks.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Universe is another name for god minus moral code

"God" is another name for "I can't figure it out for myself."

 

[King Phenomenon]

"God" is another name for "I can't figure it out for myself."

Yeah I can't figure him out 100%

 

[PureX]

That's a beautiful way to put it. A step more, when engulfing onesef in the spirit of the painting/artist, let's say, how does one derive morals and edict based on the painting?

I know many religions value tradition to give gratitude or Practice in gratitude creation/creator but to those who find in creation the edict of the creator (or the other way around) how does one do so using this analogy?

I have made many works of art. And have always been surprised by the many different ways in which the people looking at them "read" them. They would all get the essential content (message and meaning) of the artwork, but they would all relate how they intuited that content differently. Some perceive story narratives, some perceive emotional narratives from colors and shapes, many are unable to verbalize their intuitions, but will tell me in detail how they feel in response to seeing the artwork.

People are different. They relate themselves to the world, and understand that relationship in different ways. But they are still people, and the world is still the same world. And the intuitions of it are still similar enough for us to be able to live together in relative harmony. Demanding lockstep would be foolish. It can't happen. But nevertheless, there us commonality. And hopefully enough of it to keep us from destroying each other.

 

[ChristineM]

Assuming, for the moment, that there exists a god, on what rational basis, if any, could it be determined that the god was (or was not) a naturally occurring feature of the universe?

Please do not answer that we would know god was of supernatural origin if we could determined that god governed the universe. That would be a failure to acknowledge that god could be an emergent property of the universe, for it is conceivable that an emergent property could be 'greater' than what it emerges from.

The question does not make sense to me, you are asking for both an assumption and a rational determination for an irrational idea.

However, i love the old french house of the rising sun. There are still (unfortunately fewer each year) occitan speakers in our village and the video reminded me that there is really no definitive old french but several languages. The vid is sung in langue d'oïl, a combination of dialects spoken in northern france.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have made many works of art. And have always been surprised by the many different ways in which the people looking at them "read" them. They would all get the essential content (message and meaning) of the artwork, but they would all relate how they intuited that content differently. Some perceive story narratives, some perceive emotional narratives from colors and shapes, many are unable to verbalize their intuitions, but will tell me in detail how they feel in response to seeing the artwork.

People are different. They relate themselves to the world, and understand that relationship in different ways. But they are still people, and the world is still the same world. And the intuitions of it are still similar enough for us to be able to live together in relative harmony. Demanding lockstep would be foolish. It can't happen. But nevertheless, there us commonality. And hopefully enough of it to keep us from destroying each other.

Do you agree there are many truths about creation and thereby one person's truth may lead to the creator when looking at creation while someone else looking at the same thing derive meaning and truth elsewhere (no creator)?

 

[PureX]

Do you agree there are many truths about creation and thereby one person's truth may lead to the creator when looking at creation while someone else looking at the same thing derive meaning and truth elsewhere (no creator)?

To continue the art analogy, a work of art embodies it's creator on many levels; intent, design, execution, content, context, etc.,. But none of this can be "read" by the viewer unless the artwork is presumed intentional. Even if the viewer cannot determine that intent, he must have assumed there was an intent behind the act of creating the artwork and showing it to him. As it would not be there, otherwise. The artwork could not have created and shown itself. Someone did it, and did it for a reason, which is why it's there. Without that presumption of intent, there is no point in looking for anything of the creator, as it could not be recognized.

 

[Thief]

Spirit First

otherwise.....substance is 'self' starting
self creating
self motivated

and science would lean to say......NAY