The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[YoursTrue]

LOL keep going, what else you have? And that's not saying that Jesus is Michael but keep going.

No it isn't, but...it is saying that an angel can be taken for Yahweh. Yes, I'll keep going. So at least you have one "scholarly" comment that an angel can be like God. And spoken of as God. Since you believe Jesus is God equal to the other two persons, then obviously the Catholic encyclopedia is saying that an angel represents, speaks for, God. Can be called God. Hmmm isn't that interesting? Not Jehovah's witnesses. You asked. But don't worry, glad you're following along because we'll continue figuring more which I'll get to later as soon as possible.
I just wonder before I get into much discussion what theologians and commentators if any you would learn from before I start quoting any.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not arguing but it would be nice sometimes to present biblical reasoning. It appears that the Catholic encyclopedia says that Catholic theology has it that an angel can be presented as ... Yahweh. That's first in the discussion about angels in the Bible being called God. Others will follow.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told that Adam was known pre-mortally as the Archangel Michael. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus Christ was known pre-mortally as Michael either. In order to find credence in the LDS belief, you'd have to start by acknowledging that not all spiritual truth is found within the pages of the Bible, and that nowhere in the Bible does God imply that this is the case or declares that He will not speak to other people in other times and places. All of the references to Jesus being previously known as Michael are in the LDS scriptures known as The Doctrine & Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. Since you do not accept these volumes as legitimate sources of truth, there's no need for me to provide specific scriptural citations for you.

I will say, however, that there is considerable evidence in the Bible that Jesus Christ was the individual spoken of in the Old Testament as Jehovah. Now, before you conclude that this means I believe in the Trinity, or in the notion that the Father and the Son are one and the same, let me just point out, that the Latter-day Saints do not refer to the Almighty God as "Jehovah," as you do. Instead, we refer to Him as "Elohim." So we believe that God the Father = Elohim and that Jesus Christ = Jehovah. There are dozens of passages in the Old Testament in which specific terms are used to describe or reference Jehovah. Those exact same descriptions are later applied to Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

 

[YoursTrue]

Nowhere in the Bible are we told that Adam was known pre-mortally as the Archangel Michael. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus Christ was known pre-mortally as Michael either. In order to find credence in the LDS belief, you'd have to start by acknowledging that not all spiritual truth is found within the pages of the Bible, and that nowhere in the Bible does God imply that this is the case or declares that He will not speak to other people in other times and places. All of the references to Jesus being previously known as Michael are in the LDS scriptures known as The Doctrine & Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. Since you do not accept these volumes as legitimate sources of truth, there's no need for me to provide specific scriptural citations for you.

I will say, however, that there is considerable evidence in the Bible that Jesus Christ was the individual spoken of in the Old Testament as Jehovah. Now, before you conclude that this means I believe in the Trinity, or in the notion that the Father and the Son are one and the same, let me just point out, that the Latter-day Saints do not refer to the Almighty God as "Jehovah," as you do. Instead, we refer to Him as "Elohim." So we believe that God the Father = Elohim and that Jesus Christ = Jehovah. There are dozens of passages in the Old Testament in which specific terms are used to describe or reference Jehovah. Those exact same descriptions are later applied to Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

I understand your comment, and while I agree that conclusions as to what certain things mean are not always explicitly described in the Bible. Since we are talking basically about the trinity in this thread, in reference to the correctness of the Athanasian Creed, it appears you do not agree with Athanasius. As for other commentators about Michael being another reference to Christ in some cases, I will continue that line of thought using non-Witness theologians. So first I start with the Catholic encyclopedia recognizing no doubt that an angel can be called God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Nowhere in the Bible are we told that Adam was known pre-mortally as the Archangel Michael. Nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus Christ was known pre-mortally as Michael either. In order to find credence in the LDS belief, you'd have to start by acknowledging that not all spiritual truth is found within the pages of the Bible, and that nowhere in the Bible does God imply that this is the case or declares that He will not speak to other people in other times and places. All of the references to Jesus being previously known as Michael are in the LDS scriptures known as The Doctrine & Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. Since you do not accept these volumes as legitimate sources of truth, there's no need for me to provide specific scriptural citations for you.

I will say, however, that there is considerable evidence in the Bible that Jesus Christ was the individual spoken of in the Old Testament as Jehovah. Now, before you conclude that this means I believe in the Trinity, or in the notion that the Father and the Son are one and the same, let me just point out, that the Latter-day Saints do not refer to the Almighty God as "Jehovah," as you do. Instead, we refer to Him as "Elohim." So we believe that God the Father = Elohim and that Jesus Christ = Jehovah. There are dozens of passages in the Old Testament in which specific terms are used to describe or reference Jehovah. Those exact same descriptions are later applied to Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

Who's saying that Adam was known pre-mortally as the archangel Michael? The rest of your post is interesting, but will require study and deep discussion. The tetragrammaton is presented thousands of times in the Hebrew portion of the Bible. While there are interpretations as well as proclaimed revelations, the Bible is the considered word of God. When the Ethiopian eunuch went to Jerusalem to worship, he did not realize about Jesus, but God's spirit impelled Philip to explain it to him. That is all within the pages of the Bible.
Acts chapter 8: So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. 31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so He did not open His mouth"
What a wise man the Ethiopian eunuch was!

 

[Katzpur]

Who's saying that Adam was known pre-mortally as the archangel Michael?

That's an LDS belief.

The rest of your post is interesting, but will require study and deep discussion. The tetragrammaton is presented thousands of times in the Hebrew portion of the Bible. While there are interpretations as well as proclaimed revelations, the Bible is the considered word of God. When the Ethiopian eunuch went to Jerusalem to worship, he did not realize about Jesus, but God's spirit impelled Philip to explain it to him. That is all within the pages of the Bible.
Acts chapter 8: So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. 31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so He did not open His mouth"
What a wise man the Ethiopian eunuch was!

Sorry, but you lost me completely. All I'm saying is that we believe the references to Jehovah (at least the majority of the time) are references to the pre-mortal Jesus. I'm afraid I don't see how your comments have anything to do with what I'm saying.

 

[YoursTrue]

Who's saying that Adam was known pre-mortally as the archangel Michael?

That's an LDS belief.

OK, we gotta start somewhere. That is not technically in the Bible is it? And I'm curious as to how it is that someone discerned that Adam was known pre-mortally as the archangel Michael from the pages of the Bible? (pre-mortally? what does that mean?) Questions, lots of questions.

 

[Katzpur]

Who's saying that Adam was known pre-mortally as the archangel Michael?

OK, we gotta start somewhere. That is not technically in the Bible is it? And I'm curious as to how it is that someone discerned that Adam was known pre-mortally as the archangel Michael from the pages of the Bible? (pre-mortally? what does that mean?) Questions, lots of questions.

No, it's not technically in the Bible. It's LDS doctrine, though. We don't believe the Bible to be a complete record of God's dealings with mankind, for one thing. We believe He continues to reveal truths to His children even to this day. We believe the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price to also contain revelations from God, and among these are the that Adam was known pre-mortally as Michael, and Jesus as Jehovah. .

As to what we mean when we speak of a pre-mortal life (aka "the Pre-Existence"), we don't believe that we just suddenly came into existence either at the moment of conception or at the moment of birth, but that long before He created our earth itself, the Almighty God created the spirits that would someday inhabit the physical, mortal bodies we now have. Each of us is, therefore, a spirit child of God. We believe that each of us lived in God's presence for many, many years prior to a mortal body being created for us at our conception by our earthly parents, and that the spirit God created for each of us entered into our unborn body, giving it life.

The Bible doesn't explicitly teach of our pre-mortal existence, but it definitely does hint at this doctrine. I can provide you with a few verses if you're interested. Most Christians today are unaware that a belief in the pre-existence of man was very common during the first few centuries of Christianity, even though it was later abandoned. And yes, I recognize that this is a fairly radical departure from traditional Christian belief.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, it's not technically in the Bible. It's LDS doctrine, though. We don't believe the Bible to be a complete record of God's dealings with mankind, for one thing. We believe He continues to reveal truths to His children even to this day. We believe the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price to also contain revelations from God, and among these are the that Adam was known pre-mortally as Michael, and Jesus as Jehovah. .

As to what we mean when we speak of a pre-mortal life (aka "the Pre-Existence"), we don't believe that we just suddenly came into existence either at the moment of conception or at the moment of birth, but that long before He created our earth itself, the Almighty God created the spirits that would someday inhabit the physical, mortal bodies we now have. Each of us is, therefore, a spirit child of God. We believe that each of us lived in God's presence for many, many years prior to a mortal body being created for us at our conception by our earthly parents, and that the spirit God created for each of us entered into our unborn body, giving it life.

The Bible doesn't explicitly teach of our pre-mortal existence, but it definitely does hint at this doctrine. I can provide you with a few verses if you're interested. Most Christians today are unaware that a belief in the pre-existence of man was very common during the first few centuries of Christianity, even though it was later abandoned. And yes, I recognize that this is a fairly radical departure from traditional Christian belief.

Thanks for explaining. I don't mind if you give me a couple of scriptures but I'm pretty sure I will have a different take on them. Because there must be a foundation for understanding what may be questionable. At least as far as I am concerned. I'd also like to see anything from the Bible that leads a person to believe that the premortal Adam was Michael.