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Why the Long Wait?

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Why did God wait for 4,000 years before sending the redeemer? Verse references would be helpful.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Why did he wait four billion years before creating moral agents that might need a redeemer?

Better yet--why did he create people with the full knowledge that they had flawed characters and would need a redeemer in the first place? Why not just create perfect beings with free will? After all, he loves good and hates sin right?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Better yet--why did he create people with the full knowledge that they had flawed characters and would need a redeemer in the first place? Why not just create perfect beings with free will? After all, he loves good and hates sin right?
Good point. The world was already populated with sinless animals behaving properly, according to their natures. Then, suddenly, a moral disaster appears.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Why did God wait for 4,000 years before sending the redeemer? Verse references would be helpful.
Why post the same thread twice in 15 hours? I know you changed the title slightly and posted it in a different sub-forum, but it’s the same question and there is still no restriction on who can respond to your query.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hitchens asked: Why wait the 100 or 200 thousands years of man's evolutionary ancestors?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
2 Peter 3:8
That is being quoted in a very specific context and has nothing to do with the number of actual years that passed between Adam's sin and the arrival of Jesus. Perhaps I could rephrase the question by noting the number of generations between the two events.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Why post the same thread twice in 15 hours? I know you changed the title slightly and posted it in a different sub-forum, but it’s the same question and there is still no restriction on who can respond to your query.
Then I'm baffled! I was just trying what you suggested. Any chance you could tell me exactly where it should go? Maybe a link?

I tried to delete the OP in this forum, but couldn't see how to do that.

Thanks for the info.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Better yet--why did he create people with the full knowledge that they had flawed characters and would need a redeemer in the first place? Why not just create perfect beings with free will? After all, he loves good and hates sin right?
I do not believe we were born in sin. I believe were were born good, but we have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature, so we need free will in order to choose between good and bad actions.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

The full passage can be read here: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

If we were all created perfect, there would be no purpose for this life, since the purpose of this life is to make free will choices and act upon them and thereby acquire the spiritual qualities that we will need in the afterlife.

So if there was no original sin, why did Christ have to sacrifice Himself?

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
Some Answered Questions, p. 118

The full passage can be read here: 9: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
 
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RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
I
Then I'm baffled! I was just trying what you suggested. Any chance you could tell me exactly where it should go? Maybe a link?

I tried to delete the OP in this forum, but couldn't see how to do that.

Thanks for the info.
I didn't tell you to move the thread. I didn't even suggest you move the thread. The only thing I did was respond to your befuddlement after someone else suggested the thread might have been better placed in DIR and you did not know what a DIR is.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Then I'm baffled! I was just trying what you suggested. Any chance you could tell me exactly where it should go? Maybe a link?

I tried to delete the OP in this forum, but couldn't see how to do that.

Thanks for the info.
Same Faith Debates
This is the most constrained debate area. In the title add something like "bible believers only" or "Christians who accept canon only" or "Creationists only". Staff will honor your choice.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Why did God wait for 4,000 years before sending the redeemer? Verse references would be helpful.


How about this: God's system requires no redeemer. God hasn't sent one.

My question: Why do people feel they need a redeemer?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
That is being quoted in a very specific context and has nothing to do with the number of actual years that passed between Adam's sin and the arrival of Jesus. Perhaps I could rephrase the question by noting the number of generations between the two events.
Ah.
So to god one day being a kin to a thousand years only applies in that one specific situation?
One wonders if by the same logic every thing Paul says to that one specific church in that one specific town at that one specific time only applies to that one specific church in that one specific town at that one specific time as well?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I do not believe we were born in sin. I believe were were born good, but we have two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature, so we need free will in order to choose between good and bad actions.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

The full passage can be read here: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

If we were all created perfect, there would be no purpose for this life, since the purpose of this life is to make free will choices and act upon them and thereby acquire the spiritual qualities that we will need in the afterlife.

So it there was no original sin, why did Christ have to sacrifice Himself?

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
Some Answered Questions, p. 118

The full passage can be read here: 9: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS

Trailblazer wrote..... So it there was no original sin, why did Christ have to sacrifice Himself?

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; “And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: ‘On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die.’ For this reason, Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it.”

As Adam (Who was aware the he had sinned) lay dying, Eve (Who lives under deception) asked him when she would follow and she was told that she would be united to him in 6 days time,


At the close of the great Sabbath of one thousand years, the great pregnant androgynous body of EVE, who has become the body of Mankind is incinerated, and Eve is reunited with her Lord.

Have you ever asked, how one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens?

The earth takes 365.256 days to do one circuit (One Year) of our central sun.

For Neptune, the farthest known planet from our sun, (One year) takes almost on average 165 earth years to complete one circuit of our central sun.

The Sun is dragging us around our Milky Way galaxy at around 800,000km/h, taking around 250 million years to complete a single orbit of our central Black Hole. One complete circuit of the Galactic centre, is also called a Cosmic Year.

The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above us.

How long do you believe that it would take the outermost fringe of the Oort Cloud to do one circuit (One Year) of the central point of our central sun?


 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
Ah.
So to god one day being a kin to a thousand years only applies in that one specific situation?
One wonders if by the same logic every thing Paul says to that one specific church in that one specific town at that one specific time only applies to that one specific church in that one specific town at that one specific time as well?
Well, you could ignore context, but you'll not get the true picture. That is true of any body of writing, whether profane or religious.

Have you never understood that the same word or idea can have a completely different meaning depending on the context?
 
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