Atheism and arrogance

[PureX]

So I suppose the Taliban, ISIS, Evangelicals in the USA, etc. are not going by what was written in their particular texts - and taking it literally - and why we have so many different belief systems? It's like what, thousands of years, for change to occur, and the consequences of such (persecution), all because - it is written! This is the main issue with religions taking on the role of being our moral arbiters - and apparently based on some supernatural phenomena - they are just not open to rational debate/argument over such things - because - it is written. For all their benefits, they are often as much a drag on our progress.

They are as "rational" as you or I are. They simply hold to a different criteria of rationalization.

I have a friend who was raised in a home with a violent, physically and emotionally abusive father. He, his sister, and his mother all suffered the ongoing abuse of this ogre for decades. When the family priest used to come to visit, for dinner, he would get my friend alone and sexually molest him. So did an older cousin. And no one ever did anything about it. Even the man who preached about salvation every Sunday was just another liar and abuser, doing as he pleased when no one was looking. So my friend grew up believing that the world is a very 'Darwinist' environment where the strong do as they please to the weak, and get away with it. And there will always be someone stronger. So the best thing we can do is try and appease the ogres and hope they attack and abuse someone else, instead of us, when the urge strikes them.

He spent his life working in a brokerage house, serving the greed of the rich and powerful (the ogres of our society), riding their coattails through the markets to gain a few extra shekels for himself, and hoping they would spare him from their abuse, as a loyal servant.

He has been a die-hard republican all his life, and will undoubtably vote for Trump a second time. And nothing I could ever say to him will ever dissuade him from his dark and dour view of humanity and of the world. Because all his experiences in life have shown him that his dark and dour view of existence is accurate, and that people like me are just "irrational" ideological fools, living in some pretty fantasy-land where the strong can't just do whatever they want to the week, for their own pleasure, and get away with it.

And I can't say that he's wrong. Only that he's not entirely right.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't declare them sinners, but someone committing a homosexual act would be sinning. That is permissable to say. It's actually required at times. We need to speak up against wrongdoing..

In that case, I would like to speak out against the position of this post. I find it to be wrong and evidence of bigotry. Justifying such views because an ancient book promotes those views and it claims a deity supports those views is, in my mind, a dereliction of the duty to be compassionate and thoughtful.

In my view, a religion that makes such claims is automatically immoral. And we need to speak up against such wrongdoing.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, it is not that simple. We might even be able to agree on something despite not agree on how we arrive at what we share.

So in other words, in a limited sense we might share some few values, but it doesn't mean, that we share a world view or overall have the same ethical values.

Values aren't handed to us by absolutely inerrantly true sky fairie scripture.
(We see this in how such believers cannot agree on morals & truths.)
We have what we have due to genetics & environment.
There is no proving values to be true or false.
If you're OK with persecuting homos, then such are you values.
I have no proof you're wrong.
But I do suggest considering the advantages of tolerance towards
those who do no harm to others. It could even benefit you some day.

 

[viole]

It seems you are starting from the ignorant presumption that creating the whole universe was a hard or great task for its creator.

Well, if that required Him to rest for one day, I would say it costed Him quite a bit.


Ciao

- viole

 

[Revoltingest]

Just because I froobed the OP does not mean I want to bash those who disagree with the OP
Yes I have my view of atheism and other topics from the OP.
But, I do respect that my view isn't the only true answer to the topic in discussion.
Honestly I can not change an atheist or a homsexual person, nor is that my goal. I once wanted that. But hey, that is none of my business.

And yes I get it, why people judge me when I speak. I have a tendency to stick my opinions in to things I should not.

I am just a human with many flaws

Very many flaws.
But with maturity & work, you could some day become like me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No. A homosexual does not have to commit homosexual acts.

Actually all that has been done regardless of the belief system in the previous societies.

Values aren't handed to us by absolutely inerrantly true sky fairie scripture.
(We see this in how such believers cannot agree on morals & truths.)
We have what we have due to genetics & environment.
There is no proving values to be true or false.
If you're OK with persecuting homos, then such are you values.
I have no proof you're wrong.
But I do suggest considering the advantages of tolerance towards
those who do no harm to others. It could even benefit you some day.

Yeah, we don't disagree here.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Very many flaws.
But with maturity & work, you could some day become like me.

Are you sure I want to become like you

 

[PureX]

I don't declare them sinners, but someone committing a homosexual act would be sinning. That is permissable to say. It's actually required at times. We need to speak up against wrongdoing.

But you are not the arbiter of all "wrongdoing". You are just a guy with an opinion. Same as everyone else. You have neither the authority nor the wisdom to declare the sins of others. And to presume that you do is very arrogant of you.

I'm speaking from the pov of the Abrahamic religions.

We can all read the religious texts for ourselves, and form our own opinions about what they mean to us. We don't need or want you doing that for us. We may be interested in YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS, and why you have chosen to hold them (that is partly why we're here), for the purposes of discussion. But your moral judgments are irrelevant, and unwarranted. You don't know anything more about right and wrong and God and existential purpose than anyone else, here.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Very many flaws.
But with maturity & work, you could some day become like me.

I am glad I with maturity and work never became like you as for the differences in overall world view. I like how you take your own subjectivity for granted. I take mine to for granted, I just know it is subjective. How about you?

 

[Revoltingest]

I am glad I with maturity and work never became like you as for the differences in overall world view. I like how you take your own subjectivity for granted. I take mine to for granted, I just know it is subjective. How about you?

What a strange question.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What a strange question.

No, I am honest. The best possible system for humans is not really that, because it is subjective or do you have an access to a truth that the rest of us don't have, because we are not like you?

 

[Piculet]

But you are not the arbiter of all "wrongdoing". You are just a guy with an opinion. Same as everyone else. You have neither the authority nor the wisdom to declare the sins of others. And to presume that you do is very arrogant of you.

This is the tactic used by disbelievers to prevent unity among believers.

 

[Polymath257]

This is the tactic used by disbelievers to prevent unity among believers.

Or, it is a statement of fact that believers, through their arrogance, want to deny.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I am honest. The best possible system for humans is not really that, because it is subjective or do you have an access to a truth that the rest of us don't have, because we are not like you?

Subjectivity & objectivity....we can have both.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This is the tactic used by disbelievers to prevent unity among believers.

Well, the problem is that I am also a believer and I am only an unbeliever for your point of view, which makes you an unbeliever, because you don't accept that there are other believers than you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Subjectivity & objectivity....we can have both.

Proof or evidence, please. You know how it is.

 

[Mock Turtle]

They are as "rational" as you or I are. They simply hold to a different criteria of rationalization.

I have a friend who was raised in a home with a violent, physically and emotionally abusive father. He, his sister, and his mother all suffered the ongoing abuse of this ogre for decades. When the family priest used to come to visit, for dinner, he would get my friend alone and sexually molest him. So did an older cousin. And no one ever did anything about it. Even the man who preached about salvation every Sunday was just another liar and abuser, doing as he pleased when no one was looking. So my friend grew up believing that the world is a very 'Darwinist' environment where the strong do as they please to the weak, and get away with it. And there will always be someone stronger. So the best thing we can do is try and appease the ogres and hope they attack and abuse someone else, instead of us, when the urge strikes them.

He spent his life working in a brokerage house, serving the greed of the rich and powerful (the ogres of our society), riding their coattails through the markets to gain a few extra shekels for himself, and hoping they would spare him from their abuse, as a loyal servant.

He has been a die-hard republican all his life, and will undoubtably vote for Trump a second time. And nothing I could ever say to him will ever dissuade him from his dark and dour view of humanity and of the world. Because all his experiences in life have shown him that his dark and dour view of existence is accurate, and that people like me are just "irrational" ideological fools, living in some pretty fantasy-land where the strong can't just do whatever they want to the week, for their own pleasure, and get away with it.

And I can't say that he's wrong. Only that he's not entirely right.

Who am I to argue that life isn't bad for many - see my latest thread.

But you can't argue with the fact that there is no higher authority (for many) than God or some other divine reality, for which one has no reasonable redress or argument - and that tends to come from belief in some written text, enforced by appropriate religious authorities (like every Sunday for many). I think that is the essential difference (and danger) between religious beliefs and any other ideology.

 

[Revoltingest]

Proof or evidence, please. You know how it is.

We begin with subjective values.
Then we can be objective about their application in the real world.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We begin with subjective values.
Then we can be objective about their application in the real world.

But that is not both. The values are not both subjective and objective. They are subjective. So again, what is the evidence that you have for the best possible system for values(politics and ethics)?

 

[Revoltingest]

The values are not both subjective and objective. They are subjective.

That's what I said.
Using the values as premises, one may reason objectively from them.
Thus humans have both subjectivity and objectivity.

So again, what is the evidence that you have for the best possible system for values(politics and ethics)?

I have none....only personal preferences.
What do you have?