As in Adam all die (what about Eve?)

[Windwalker]

Not sure where to post this. What are Christian views on Eve's role?
A perfect life for a perfect life - but there were two perfect lives in Eden? etc.
Just curious.

The Genesis story describes the creation of Eve as a "complement" to Adam. That word means to complete the other person. In other words, humans need other humans to complete themselves, because we are created as social creatures. Eve completes Adam, and Adam completes Eve.

Are you asking for something specific beyond that?

 

[idea]

Good question....

As free willed moral agents in full control of their faculties...with no defects or impediments, both Adam and his wife were not victims of a sinful nature, so their choices were wilful and deliberate acts based on the workings of their own minds and hearts.

Why did the devil target the woman and not Adam first?
Because Adam was better educated than his new wife. He had waited a long time for her and he was besotted with his new mate.

Satan was assigned as a "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden, (this is a guardianship role) which placed him right there observing all that was taking place. He saw Adam's reaction to receiving his wife, and plotted his course accordingly.

The devil targeted the woman to get to the man, thus separating them from their Creator.
He convinced the woman

What those three rebels did had to be undone by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Good question....

As free willed moral agents in full control of their faculties...with no defects or impediments, both Adam and his wife were not victims of a sinful nature, so their choices were wilful and deliberate acts based on the workings of their own minds and hearts.

Why did the devil target the woman and not Adam first?
Because Adam was better educated than his new wife. He had waited a long time for her and he was besotted with his new mate.

Satan was assigned as a "covering cherub" in the garden of Eden, (this is a guardianship role) which placed him right there observing all that was taking place. He saw Adam's reaction to receiving his wife, and plotted his course accordingly.

The devil targeted the woman to get to the man, thus separating them from their Creator.
He convinced the woman that she would be better off if she ate the fruit because then she would be like God, knowing good and bad for herself. He also lied about the penalty. So she was deceived and she ate.

1 Timothy 2:13-14....
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor."

She knew the penalty but believed the lie......Adam was not deceived, but deliberately took the fruit to join his wife in rebellion and eventual death. Which is exactly what the devil was hoping for.

There were several scenarios that could have taken place.....
Exercising free will, the woman chose to disobey but she did not have to. She repeated what her husband had told her about the forbidden fruit, so she could have told the serpent to get lost.....but she didn't, so her deliberate actions merited the death penalty.

Her husband could have refused to take the fruit from her, and Adam would have lost his wife, but not his own life. In time God would have probably provided a new mate with Eve's conduct used as a warning example of where disobedience to God can take you.

But the devil hoped to separate both of them from God so that he could then have them and all their children serve him as a god, creating his own personal empire.....it is apparently an ambition that he sought after observing the creation of lower intelligent creatures who could see him as a god.

The Creator's words to the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28, were a thinly veiled address to the devil...
"‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“You were the model of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.
You were adorned with every precious stone. . . .

They were prepared on the day you were created.
14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.
15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you. . . .

Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor."

This once glorious creature was corrupted by his own beauty.....and wanted to be worshipped.

What those three rebels did had to be undone by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I'm still confused. Why "in Adam all die", not "As in Eve all died", or as "in Adam and Eve all die" ?

And it was not a life for a life, not 1:1. It was a life for 2 perfect lives.

And if they were really perfect, why, with their perfect minds, did they choose to eat the fruit? Seems like "perfect" people would not eat the fruit?

 

[idea]

Eve's role in what? In the biggest picture, she's the mother of us all. I don't agree with the sexist interpretation of blaming her more than Adam for the fall of man. It's unjust. I personally prefer the Islamic take where they both repented and are basically recognized as saints and friends of God (although the Catholic Church actually recognizes both Adam and Eve as saints). After all, they're pretty much metaphors for all humans and our weaknesses.

She isn't blamed - " as in Adam all die", right? I guess without Adam there would be no kids, so his choice was not just about Eve. Adam's choice was about kids, while Eve's choice was for wisdom / becoming God.

 

[idea]

Hmmm...that's interesting. I wonder where they got that idea? Its not in the Bible.

Making heroes out of villains is not something God has ever done according to my studies. Since the first humans were not burdened with a sinful nature like they handed onto their children, there is actually no basis to forgive them. The angels that followed satan are likewise up for permanent elimination from existence. That is true justice. Mercy is given only when it is merited. There was not one word of remorse expressed by either of them, nor was a single sacrifice offered in apology. They knew what the penalty meant.

What about Saul to Paul etc., isn't that a hero out if villain? Isn't the whole point repentance and making heros out of villains?

We don't know the whole story, can fill in missing details as an optimist or a pessimist I suppose.

 

[idea]

In traditionnal Islamic beliefs, the Old Testament and the New Testament as you know them are the work of corrupt and imperfect people who picked and chose from the prophets of God techings, twisted their words and deeds when they penned them down. In other words, they think your Bible is filled with lies, half-truth, omissions and, sometimes, kernels of truth and that the only perfect revelations from God comes through the Qu'ran and his last prophet Muhammad. That you don't find in your holy scriptures their teachings and their version of those events is only proof that they are indeed corrupted.

What is the oldest found copy of the Qu'ran? Just curious. It splits ways with the Bible with the twins right? Who the birthright is passed to? Isaac vs Ishmael or something like that? Sorry, I'm not as familiar with it.

 

[idea]

What do you mean by a perfect life for a perfect life?

The garden of Eden is a place where animals talk, where knowledge can come from eating. There is no law there, so nudity and other sins do not exist. There is no killing. There is no death. The two people there are, however, incompetent. They have not eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. Eve sees the fruit is nourishment and eats, and then she understands good & evil. She then gives to Adam, so Adam understands, too. Then they have the power of the gods, the power to choose right from wrong. It is up to you to decide if that was a mistake, "Child of Eve." We couldn't make the choice if they hadn't taken the fruit.

The story poses a question indirectly. "Is it better to know or not to know?" "Is it worth mortality, suffering, death?" "Should we shake off the judgment of gods?" The answer is rhetorical, because the Jews believe the law is good. The answer to the question must be "Yes it is worth any price." That's what I think the story is saying.

You know, 1 Cor 15:22 a life for a life, Jesus paid the price of Adam - one perfect life for another. Seems like Jesus+wife would need to balance Adam +wife?

 

[idea]

I find the story of Eve fascinating. As Deeje mentioned, she was deceived. I like to look at that portion because if we can find out how she was deceived, we can eliminate some suffering in our own lives.

This is what God said, " Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

This is what Eve said, "Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

I noticed the difference. Eve added to what God had said. Like any scheme, you have to convince someone that a lie is a truth if you are going to take advantage of that person.

God never said you can't touch it. Now, the Serpent can begin to catch the fish with the dangling lie at the end of the fishing line.

Next, the evil one begins to seed doubt into Eve. Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Here they have perfect peace, the whole of the earth and the bounty thereof, a relationship with God that Satan didn't have, having it all wasn't enough. He made her think that the 5 drops of water that was missing in a full glass meant that the glass was completely empty. (I wonder how many people are upset because they don't have what someone else has and become bitter instead of rejoicing in what they DO have and being content)

So she touches the apple and nothing happened. Of course nothing happened because God never said she couldn't touch it. But in her mind, for lack of knowledge and for not studying the word of God, God must have lied because nothing happened. So if she touched it and nothing happened, she took the next step and bit on the hook of the lie and ate the fruit.

In other words, if we believe a lie is true, suffering has now started.

A good example: People say, "God has put this sickness on you to teach you something" - something that is nowhere to be found in scripture when in reality God want people to be healed. Someone believes this lie and death slowly begins to envelope them.

Or, "God is punishing you for all you did wrong", causing people to think that God goes around with a big bat to smack you when you do wrong when in reality Jesus already took the beating so that you would be free of all condemnation and thus, because of religious erroneous thinking, suffering continues.

It was not the tree of lies, it was not the tree of death, it was the tree of knowledge, the tree of wisdom. Why would so many religions start with a story coloring knowledge as the path to death and sin?

 

[idea]

I'm not at all sure what you're asking or, for that matter, why you are focusing on "Christian views" of Jewish scripture.

Like Adam, Eve is a character in an origin myth often interpreted in such a way as to cast her as the person primarily responsible for the origin of sin.

So how do Jewish people resolve it? No Jesus, no atonement, for those who are religious, is someone supposed to come to pay the price of Adam's sin? How does the story end for Jewish traditions?

For Muslims too I suppose Jesus is just a prophet, not Saviour? So how does it get worked out? How is justice served?

Sorry for all the questions, trying to understand the main jist of it all.

 

[Kenny]

It was not the tree of lies, it was not the tree of death, it was the tree of knowledge, the tree of wisdom. Why would so many religions start with a story coloring knowledge as the path to death and sin?

Never said it was a tree of death. Can you quote where I said that?

In Christian context - God never wanted a path of death for mankind that’s why He fixed it with a path of life

 

[epronovost]

What is the oldest found copy of the Qu'ran?

The eldest Qu'ran we found is the Ma'Il Qu'ran. It orginitates in Saudi Arabia and contains about 2/3 of the modern Qu'ran. It was written about a century after Muhammad's death, some fragment of quranic texts might be older than that, but most of the quranic narrative was penned down a century or two after the death of their prophet.

By comparison, if it might help, the earliest fragment we have the Old Testament are dated back from the first century BC while the earliest fragment of the New Testament we have date back from the early 3rd century AD. For complete manuscript or quasi complete manuscript you will have to wait for Codexes from the 10th century AD.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So how do Jewish people resolve it? No Jesus, no atonement, ...

1. Jews are not monolithic.
2. Atone for what?

 

[Rival]

So how do Jewish people resolve it?

Have you read what David did after his sin with Bathsheba?

The Book of Jonah is also a good one, although it's about non-Jews the message is there.

Solomon in 1 Kings 8:44

‘If Your people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatever way You shall send them, and they pray to the Lord towards the city that You have chosen and the house that I have built for Your name, then hear in heaven their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause."

Teshuvah, or Repentance | My Jewish Learning

 

[idea]

1. Jews are not monolithic.
2. Atone for what?

Atone for everyone's sins, you know, resolve the problem of evil with both justice and mercy.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You know, 1 Cor 15:22 a life for a life, Jesus paid the price of Adam - one perfect life for another. Seems like Jesus+wife would need to balance Adam +wife?

Oh, I think get your drift, now.

Genesis says Eve is the mother of all the living, but in the gospel John 7:38 Jesus says "Whoever believes in me, as scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within him." Seems relevant to your context. Maybe that would answer why he doesn't need a wife.

I'm allowing for sake of conversation that Jesus pays for sins, as you suggest, though I think that is actually a figure of speech for forgiveness particularly forgiveness among those who take communion. I think that a lot of things are figures of speech which can be taken too far, sometimes. For example suppose I was taking you to get baptized and I said "We're going to bury your old man." You shouldn't presume that I'm saying we're going to kill your dad. Similarly if I said you'd been saved by the blood of the lamb you shouldn't presume that meant I was going to smear you with nasty lamb blood. For similar reasons I don't presume that Jesus can literally pay for your sins with punishment placed upon himself nor that God would extract your sins with a syringe and inject them into someone else. Instead I presume that Jesus inspires you to change, thus paying for your sins. You see him accused, yet he doesn't complain. His obedience also justifies that you aren't a 100% loss, thus reversing the judgment against all of Adam's descendants. If he with his frail and tempted body can live spiritually then so can you by that same spirit. I'm sure I could explain that better, and I think figures of speech are very powerful. I think they often get taken literally and misunderstood.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Atone for everyone's sins, you know, resolve the problem of evil with both justice and mercy.

I'm sorry, but I find that to be literally senseless.

 

[The Anointed]

I find the story of Eve fascinating. As Deeje mentioned, she was deceived. I like to look at that portion because if we can find out how she was deceived, we can eliminate some suffering in our own lives.

This is what God said, " Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

This is what Eve said, "Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

I noticed the difference. Eve added to what God had said. Like any scheme, you have to convince someone that a lie is a truth if you are going to take advantage of that person.

God never said you can't touch it. Now, the Serpent can begin to catch the fish with the dangling lie at the end of the fishing line.

Next, the evil one begins to seed doubt into Eve. Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Here they have perfect peace, the whole of the earth and the bounty thereof, a relationship with God that Satan didn't have, having it all wasn't enough. He made her think that the 5 drops of water that was missing in a full glass meant that the glass was completely empty. (I wonder how many people are upset because they don't have what someone else has and become bitter instead of rejoicing in what they DO have and being content)

So she touches the apple and nothing happened. Of course nothing happened because God never said she couldn't touch it. But in her mind, for lack of knowledge and for not studying the word of God, God must have lied because nothing happened. So if she touched it and nothing happened, she took the next step and bit on the hook of the lie and ate the fruit.

In other words, if we believe a lie is true, suffering has now started.

A good example: People say, "God has put this sickness on you to teach you something" - something that is nowhere to be found in scripture when in reality God want people to be healed. Someone believes this lie and death slowly begins to envelope them.

Or, "God is punishing you for all you did wrong", causing people to think that God goes around with a big bat to smack you when you do wrong when in reality Jesus already took the beating so that you would be free of all condemnation and thus, because of religious erroneous thinking, suffering continues.

" Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3: 22; Then the LORD God said, “Now the man has become like one of us and has knowledge of what is good and what is bad. He must not be allowed to take fruit from the tree that gives life, eat it, and live for ever.”

A good example: People say, "God has put this sickness on you to teach you something" - something that is nowhere to be found in scripture when in reality God want people to be healed. Someone believes this lie and death slowly begins to envelope them.

Then I heard the Lord say, “Whom shall I send? Who will be our messenger?”
I answered, “I will go! Send me!”
9 So he told me to go and give the people this message: “No matter how much you listen, you will not understand. No matter how much you look, you will not know what is happening.” 10Then he said to me, “Make the minds of these people dull, their ears deaf, and their eyes blind, so that they cannot see or hear or understand. If they did, they might turn to me and be healed.”

The following are the words that Jesus was commanded to say by the Lord God our savior, who had filled his obedient servant with his spirit.

Matthew 13: 10; Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?”
11Jesus answered, “The knowledge about the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12For the person who has something will be given more, so that he will have more than enough; but the person who has nothing will have taken away from him even the little he has. 13The reason I use parables in talking to them is that they look, but do not see, and they listen, but do not hear or understand. 14So the prophecy of Isaiah applies to them:

‘This people will listen and listen, but not understand; they will look and look, but not see, 15 because their minds are dull, and they have stopped up their ears and have closed their eyes. Otherwise, their eyes would see, their ears would hear, their minds would understand, and they would turn to me, says God, and I would heal them.’

 

[Deeje]

I'm still confused. Why "in Adam all die", not "As in Eve all died", or as "in Adam and Eve all die" ?

Because Adam was not deceived, his actions after the disobedience of his wife, determined the outcome for all his children. If he had refused the fruit and remained obedient, he would have lost his wife, who would have justly paid for her own sin with her own death, but by joining her, Adam condemned the whole human race who came from them. It was his choice that determined our future.

And it was not a life for a life, not 1:1. It was a life for 2 perfect lives.

It actually was “a life for a life”. Adam and his wife paid the penalty for their own sin; Jesus came to redeem the perfect life that Adam lost for all their children. One act of disobedience condemned the human race, and one act of obedience rescued them.

And if they were really perfect, why, with their perfect minds, did they choose to eat the fruit? Seems like "perfect" people would not eat the fruit?

The woman was deceived...she believed a lie.....was there an excuse for that when the law was clearly stated along with the penalty?

“Perfect” doesn’t mean that there are no choices. Free will is based on evaluating any situation, which includes any consequences for actions. She was aware of the consequences because she told the serpent about the death penalty, yet when the devil lied to her and told her she would not die, she reconsidered her options. He appealed to selfishness and it worked. She then presented Adam with some options of his own. Since he was not deceived, it was his decision to join his disobedient wife, regardless of the consequences.

What about Saul to Paul etc., isn't that a hero out if villain? Isn't the whole point repentance and making heros out of villains?

Saul also had some choices to make. He was determined to serve the interests of his God by punishing these Christians for their defection from Judaism. His motive was good, but his actions betrayed a misplaced loyalty, so in seeing his zeal for the worship of his God, Jesus gave him an unusual ‘tap on the shoulder’ and redirected that zeal for true worship in a better direction. Saul could have rejected this event as the work was of the devil, but he humbly accepted the assignment and did a complete 360 degree turnaround. Saul wasn’t a villain, but saw that his actions were out of line with the truth, so he obediently did as Jesus directed him. He then became the apostle Paul.

We don't know the whole story, can fill in missing details as an optimist or a pessimist I suppose.

We can use the rest of scripture to fill in much of the details. Genesis sets the scene for all that follows. It’s the only way to make sense of why Jesus had to come and offer his perfect life for ours.

 

[epronovost]

but he humbly accepted the assignment and did a complete 360 degree turnaround.

The expression is make 180 degree turn as in going in the opposite direction. If you make a 360 degree turn you make a full circle and right where you started.

 

[The Anointed]

Plant a tree on a deserted and barren Island, go back in 50 years time to Kill that one life that you planted, and unless you kill every Plant that has grown from the seed of the original plant, it still lives.

Eve is reunited with her Lord, only when the body of mankind is destroyed after the thousand year rule of Christ, at the close of the seventh day from the day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, and died in that day at the age of 930, Eve is reunited to her Lord six days later.

 

[RabbiO]

So how do Jewish people resolve it? No Jesus, no atonement, for those who are religious, is someone supposed to come to pay the price of Adam's sin?

Are you asking about original sin? That’s a Christian concept. Apparently you do not know much about Judaism.