Why Profiling Makes Sense and Should Be Done

[Tambourine]

Well I would like to see modern scientific racism debunked.

There is no such thing. Modern science does not support the existence of races.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well I would like to see modern scientific racism debunked.

There isn't any "modern" scientific racism unless you want to go back to the Nazi era. Genetics studies basically killed it off because they were just making things up going by physical appearance and cultural bias, not knowing much of anything about the underlying biology and nothing about genetics.

 

[George-ananda]

Surely this is a joke. White people terrorized black people for centuries in the US. They had racist massacres of black people where whole towns were wiped off the map by white mobs (heard of Rosewood?), chattel slavery, raped black women, lynched thousands of black men and women, held black people under a reign of terror in the Jim Crow South where black people lived in a constant state of extreme fear lest they make the slightest social mistake that could get them brutally murdered (like a black guy sharing a sidewalk with a white woman), etc. But you have the nerve to say that black people's problems are their own and that they are lacking morals and social responsibility. What textual vomit that is.

That does not satisfactorily explain why today their problems are more self-inflicted than other ethnic groups and they have not been able to take advantage of modern liberal society as say Asian Americans or Jews have. The victimization argument does not fully cover it as it seems both heredity and environment seem to be at play at this point in time.

 

[George-ananda]

There is no such thing. Modern science does not support the existence of races.

Certainly ethnic groups largely genetically separated from each other for tens of thousands of years do exist.

 

[George-ananda]

There isn't any "modern" scientific racism unless you want to go back to the Nazi era. Genetics studies basically killed it off because they were just making things up going by physical appearance and cultural bias, not knowing much of anything about the underlying biology and nothing about genetics.

I was talking about social scientists like those in the Bell Curve controversy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That does not satisfactorily explain why today their problems are more self-inflicted than other ethnic groups and they have not been able to take advantage of modern liberal society as say Asian Americans or Jews have. The victimization argument does not fully cover it as it seems both heredity and environment seem to be at play at this point in time.

Asian-Americans and most Jewish-Americans are more recent arrivals who never had to deal with the level of systemic, centuries-long oppression and terror that black people have had to deal with. You can't just pass some laws 50 years ago and expect almost 500 years of systemic racism toward black and brown people to magically disappear. Black people and Native Americans are the two groups who have been treated most horribly in the US. Are the problems on the reservations (indigenous ghettos, really) the problem of natives?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was talking about social scientists like those in the Bell Curve controversy.

One of the authors of that book was a political scientist and the other was a psychologist. Those fields aren't qualified to say much of anything about the reality or unreality of biological race. You have to look at anthropology, biology and genetics.

 

[Tambourine]

Certainly ethnic groups largely genetically separated from each other for tens of thousands of years do exist.

There are no ethnic communities that spent "tens of thousands of years" "genetically separated". Not only is the genetic variation between humans of different groups minimal compared to individual variation, you are also underestimating the time neighbouring ethnic groups spent in contact with one another.

Here's a map:

It doesn't show the amount of shared genetic material, but the amount of shared variations in genetic mutation.
As you can see, the amount of variation that is specific to a single community is pretty tiny. The overwhelming majority is shared across regions and continents, with the majority of genetic variations common across the entire human species.

Another interesting point:

Only a small number of loci show evidence of selective sweeps, or recent selection (adaptation). It indicates that most of the differences between local ethnic groups are not associated with adaptation. The exceptions are SLC24A5 (skin pigmentation), HERC2 (eye color), LCT (lactose tolerance), and FADS (fat metabolism).

Literally the only genetics that can potentially vary regionally, rather than across the human race, are genetics that have to do with physical appearance and diet. And there are no genes for "moral behavior", "social responsibility" or "academic performance" to begin with.

 

[Tambourine]

I was talking about social scientists like those in the Bell Curve controversy.

The (scientifically dubious, unsupported by data) explanation pushed by the author of The Bell Curve was actually that Black people frequently grew up outside traditional family structure, and had nothing to do with biological race.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yes, police need to follow their training. If they are walking into a situation where their life could be in instant jeopardy they need to be in a position where they need to affirm strong control.

Putting police people in situations like that everyday is going to affect them mentally and we can only get humans to do this terrible, difficult and stressful job. I still claim the cases of polite co-operative people suffering any harm from police is rare. Cases of police misconduct should not be ignored either.

Have you studied some of the differences in training techniques between US and overseas police forces? Do you believe police training (and equipment) in the US is often a contributory factor to problems arising?

 

[George-ananda]

Asian-Americans and most Jewish-Americans are more recent arrivals who never had to deal with the level of systemic, centuries-long oppression and terror that black people have had to deal with. You can't just pass some laws 50 years ago and expect almost 500 years of systemic racism toward black and brown people to magically disappear. Black people and Native Americans are the two groups who have been treated most horribly in the US. Are the problems on the reservations (indigenous ghettos, really) the problem of natives?

When I say ‘heredity AND environment I am not excluding environment. Social scientists find ways to separate the variables in their studies.

 

[Tambourine]

When I say ‘heredity AND environment I am not excluding environment.

The "hereditary component" is literally their skin color and nothing else.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It would be based on the widely available demographic datasets on criminal and terroristic behaviors. We can create predictive models based on many different demographic variables. I can't say anything about your specific example because I don't know the statistics. But I would guess that highly educated black women would be pretty low risk.

My point...poorly made, perhaps...is that profiling is in practice often based on stereotypes, visual appearances and somewhat arbitrary borders drawn around race, age or gender.

Someone who looks like a 20 year old Muslim man will be treated as a 20 year old Muslim man. Someone well dressed will be assumed more affluent and educated. Someone with darker skin is black. Paler skin white.

 

[George-ananda]

There are no ethnic communities that spent "tens of thousands of years" "genetically separated". Not only is the genetic variation between humans of different groups minimal compared to individual variation, you are also underestimating the time neighbouring ethnic groups spent in contact with one another.

Here's a map:

It doesn't show the amount of shared genetic material, but the amount of shared variations in genetic mutation.
As you can see, the amount of variation that is specific to a single community is pretty tiny. The overwhelming majority is shared across regions and continents, with the majority of genetic variations common across the entire human species.

Another interesting point:

Literally the only genetics that can potentially vary regionally, rather than across the human race, are genetics that have to do with physical appearance and diet. And there are no genes for "moral behavior", "social responsibility" or "academic performance" to begin with.

There is the mind boggling interplay of who knows how many genes that have an influence. The bottom line is observation and consideration as done in the social sciences.

 

[Revoltingest]

OK, but there’s an inherent trade off between bad guys getting away and good guys getting hassled. What do you prefer if no mind reading or perfect humans or system exists?

I tend to be a pro-police type (within reason).

I say limit profiling to what is legal.

 

[Tambourine]

There is the mind boggling interplay of who knows how many genes that have an influence. The bottom line is observation and consideration as done in the social sciences.

The social sciences do not observe human genetics, only behavior and social structure.

 

[Tambourine]

I say limit profiling to what is legal.

Fortunately, a government can always draft new laws that can expand what is legal.

 

[Revoltingest]

Fortunately, a government can always draft new laws that can expand what is legal.

Oh, boy... a return to the golden age of legal discrimination on
the basis of religion, race, gender, national origin, creed, sexual
orientation, family status, age, handicap, etc.

 

[George-ananda]

Have you studied some of the differences in training techniques between US and overseas police forces? Do you believe police training (and equipment) in the US is often a contributory factor to problems arising?

I more suspect the key difference In statistical outcomes is in demographic differences between the US and say Australia. The differences between whites in both countries is probably not major.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What are your thoughts? I have no doubt that this will be a highly controversial thread, but I hope that we can avoid allowing it to go off-topic.

In the world at large I agree with some profiling, but here in the USA it tends to keep people down and make them second class. Its a burden, and so you have to decide if its a due burden or something that we can do without here.