I prefer not to be 'pigeon-holed' but from what I post it is evident that I believe a disciple of Jesus should be born-again of the Spirit of God. I also believe it is important not to be a loner, so I meet with other born-again believers. In the past, I have attended various church denominations, including a unitarian meeting (until I sensed the error), but am now much happier in a house church (without denomination!).
Let me say first of all that I really appreciate your sincerity and understand your beliefs, since I once shared many of them myself.
I often wonder about ‘non-denominational’ churches in view of Paul’s words at 1 Corinthians 1:10. Here in Australia, mainstream churches are drying up as we as a nation become more and more secular and materialistic.....so some decades ago three of those churches who were struggling to stay afloat, merged for their mutual benefit.They called themselves "The Uniting Church" because there is no way that their individual doctrines could agree, so because they will never be "United", there is a suggestion in the title that they are accepting of each others beliefs and difference which are put aside for the benefit of the church's survival. Mostly I guess because they all accept the core doctrines inherited from the RCC.
What you have written above is interesting, and should help in the process of unraveling this complex issue of whether God has come to earth.
I think this comes down to who God is, and whether there was ever a need for God himself to become a human in order to save mankind. To me that is akin to a dinosaur wanting to live in the body of a bacteria in order to save the bacteria. That is the kind of divide I see between God and humans.
I'm fully aware that Spirit has no gender, so what I'm particularly keen to explore is the idea of whether or not God's Spirit can be divided.
Indeed, the spirit is often spoken of as divided between large groups of people.
e.g. Numbers 11:25 recounts the situation with Moses feeling overwhelmed at the responsibility given to him
for the welfare of his vast nation.....and his father-in-law recommending that he get some assistance.
"Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him [Moses] and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it." (ESV)
How do you take "some" of a person off one man and divide it up between 70 others?
And of course there is Pentecost when the holy spirit "filled' 120 of Jesus' disciples gathered in an upper room, enabling them to speak in foreign languages to preach to visitors in the city from foreign lands.
When Stephen was about to die at the hands of the infuriated Jews, because he had castigated them with a stinging truth, he was granted a vision....
Acts 7:51-57....
51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, 53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”
54 Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. 55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him." (ESV)
You notice that Stephen was filled with holy spirit when he was granted this vision.....whom did he see? He saw Jesus at the right hand of God. Was the holy spirit absent from the heavenly scene because it was busy 'filling' Stephen? If it can be in several places or people at once, why was it not seen in heaven with the rest of the trinity?
In fact when Jesus and his Father are spoken about together, the holy spirit rarely rates a mention as a trio...no more is this well demonstrated than Jesus own words to his Father in John 17:3...
"And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Again, there is "the only true God" but it isn't Jesus because he adds AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent". Where is the third equally important component of the trinity? Why is eternal life NOT based on a knowledge of "him"?
I believe that Jesus received the Holy Spirit without any division. As a human, Jesus already had his own body, soul and spirit [Do you believe this?]
I believe that Jesus was 100% human but not the product of normal human reproduction. To be viewed as "Jewish" one had to be born of a Jewish mother, which Jesus was. But in order
not to carry the defective (sinful) genes of Adam, he couldn't have a human father. To be born sinless, his life in heaven was transferred to the womb of this specially chosen, unmarried virgin. Her virginity was essential so that Jesus' credentials would be as the "son of God" rather than a sinful son of Adam. This would prove that he could pay the "ransom" which was a set "price". You see, the ransom demanded something that no other human could furnish.....Jesus had to be Adam's equivalent because God's law demanded that a debt be paid in full. A "redeemer" had to have the full price, so a "life for a life" meant a sinless life had to be offered for the sinless life that Adam lost for his children, sold into this 'slavery' (to sin and death) through no fault on their part. (Roman 5:12)
The mechanics of the ransom tell us why Jesus cannot be God. It would be like paying a million quadriillion dollars ransom for something worth only a few thousand dollars by comparison.
Since you have an entirely different understanding of the words "soul" and "spirit" as they are used in the Bible, that will lead us to another rabbit hole.
so the coming of the Holy Spirit at baptism was a coming down of God's Spirit without division or limitation. For this to be true, Jesus must have fulfilled all the 'ministries' of the Holy Spirit within the church. Jesus was, therefore, an apostle, a prophet, an evangelist, a pastor and a teacher. He was also many other things, including our High Priest.
I see you putting your own qualifiers on your statements as if they were absolute truth. I do not see them that way. What does it mean when you say..."a coming down of God's Spirit without division or limitation. For this to be true, Jesus must have fulfilled all the 'ministries' of the Holy Spirit within the church"....that statement means very little to me.....like church jargon.
The coming down of God's spirit upon his son along with his declaration of approval says to me that when Jesus presented himself to begin his role as Messiah, God equipped him for that role by giving him all that was necessary through the operation of holy spirit to carry it out. His baptism in water was a symbolic death and resurrection, signifying that Jesus the man, now 'died' and was 'raised' to become Jesus the Christ (anointed one). As God's anointed one he did carry out various roles whilst remaining the son of God. But he was also referred to as "God's servant". (Acts 3:13) A servant is not equal to his Master, but obediently carries out his Masters instructions. Jesus did exactly that. (John 5:19)
So I see in Christ all the power and glory of God. The reason for this must lie in the fact that Jesus, as God's only begotten Son, was perfectly faithful and could 'house' an undivided Holy Spirit. [You might remember that even Moses was unable to enter the house of God when the Holy Spirit (Shekinah) was present].
It was the High Priest's job to enter the Most Holy once a year with the blood of the prescribed sacrifice. But God spoke with Moses (most than likely through his Logos) in a luminous cloud that appeared above the Ark of the Testimony.
Numbers 7:89...
" And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the Lord, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him."
Exodus 25:22....God said to Moses....
"There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel."
IMO, the difference between Jesus Christ and the rest of the believers is the difference between the head and the body. The head is the boss, and each part of the body functions in accordance with the leading of the head. Since the Holy Spirit flows from the head to the parts, it separates to perform different functions, where necessity calls. Each believer in the body of Christ has varying amounts of faith, and receives grace in accordance with faith and talent. Paul describes this body, as in Ephesians 4:14-16. The point being, that the Holy Spirit is ONE within the body of Christ, and therefore the head and body unite as one in the Son of God. The temple of God [the Spirit of Christ] is therefore a spiritual body that exists on earth, amongst believers, and in heaven, in the head, Jesus Christ.
Again, we have a very different view as to
who make up the "body of Christ".
I agree that Jesus is the head, no question....but who are the body and what is their function?
Since these alone go to heaven, what do they do there according to your understanding?
To address your statement above, I believe that we first need to answer these questions.....[/quote]
