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Religious and Believers Only What Miracles are For.

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Since mankind has never been able to institute a successful system of governance, what do you believe is the solution? Even when the Jews has their land gifted to them and laws to govern their everyday lives, they still couldn't get it right....why do you think they failed? Was it God's failure or theirs?



Again, why do you think you fail when you have such good motives?
What is God waiting for? What is his promised Kingdom and how does it "come" in the Baha'i view?
What will it accomplish?

Hi Deeje,

I think that you will agree that anything short of a system under God would never be perfect especially one based upon greed and profit.

We are promised the Kingdom of God in the Bible and I believe it is being established by both God and man as God throughout history has always used man as a tool for His designs and to achieve His purpose such as in sending Jesus in the form of a Man to guide us. Just as Jesus appeared in the flesh so too I believe that the Kingdom of God as well as being in hearts will be a Kingdom on earth representing the laws of God established by His followers under His guidance.

In this Kingdom the lamb and the wolf will lie down side by side which to my understanding symbolises the antagonistic races, nations and religions of the earth. For we see today the black and white, America China and different religions hostile to one mother. In God’s Kingdom we will all see ourselves as one family or children of the same one God.

As God loves all humanity He wants us all to love one another and see no differences but see the good in each other and so I think that we are all a work in progress being prepared to enter the Kingdom of unity and oneness as we mature.

We all build it because until we are all at peace with our maker and each other the Kingdom cannot appear because it is not simply a bricks and mortar kingdom but one where hearts are united in love for God and each other. So I hope to be together with you in that kingdom. Actually we may be more closely related than we think. God bless.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think that you will agree that anything short of a system under God would never be perfect especially one based upon greed and profit.
That has certainly been very true in modern times...greed for profit is the driver of everything. But humans with selfish motives will never accomplish what only God's Kingdom can achieve IMO.

We are promised the Kingdom of God in the Bible and I believe it is being established by both God and man as God throughout history has always used man as a tool for His designs and to achieve His purpose such as in sending Jesus in the form of a Man to guide us. Just as Jesus appeared in the flesh so too I believe that the Kingdom of God as well as being in hearts will be a Kingdom on earth representing the laws of God established by His followers under His guidance.

I too believe this, but I think we just have a different view on how it will be achieved.

The one necessary ingredient to the successful implementation of the Kingdom's rule is man's co-operation with God so that his guidance will be followed and his laws obeyed. When God has given humans free will, that is a precarious balance. God will never force people to obey him so what do you believe is the solution to this dilemma? How can this level of cooperation ever be achieved when humans in this day and age are less spiritual than their last century counterparts, who were different again from theirs. Humans are getting less spiritual and more secular, more materialistic, more greedy, more lazy, more immoral, and still divided racially in their thinking.....so how will the current level of cooperation (lack of it) ever overcome these obstacles? Are Baha'i's just highly optimistic or very naive?

As we see it, in this world, God is giving everyone an opportunity to express their free will, but they also have the guidance that he has provided in his instruction manual. This gives us humans two choices....to acquaint ourselves with God's requirements and laws, and then decide if we will act on them....or not. It has to be our choice...to obey God from the heart without reservation.

But realistically, from man's history, we can see that the majority choose to please themselves rather than to please God. This ingrained selfishness can be overcome but we have to want to please God more than we want to please ourselves. You can only come to love God on that level if you really know him and see what he has done in the past, and what he is doing now, and what he will do in the future, because he has already told us all about it.

In this Kingdom the lamb and the wolf will lie down side by side which to my understanding symbolises the antagonistic races, nations and religions of the earth. For we see today the black and white, America China and different religions hostile to one mother. In God’s Kingdom we will all see ourselves as one family or children of the same one God.

Yes, and I have hope that this scripture in Isaiah will have a literal fulfillment as well. None of God's creatures will do any harm to humans or each other either. His prophesy predicts that God's worshippers will put down their weapons and make farming implements out of them. There will be no more war. But in order for all that to take place, God must remove all causes of harm and eliminate from existence all those who will not peacefully co-exist with their fellow man. For the sake of the faithful, God must eliminate the unfaithful. His Kingdom cannot function amid division and animosity.

Jesus will come and he will separate the "sheep from the goats", ushering in a new age of peace, but only after he has cleansed the earth of all who would threaten the peace of others. Its all written down for us, so it will take place as God promises.

As God loves all humanity He wants us all to love one another and see no differences but see the good in each other and so I think that we are all a work in progress being prepared to enter the Kingdom of unity and oneness as we mature.

In all of man's history, we have never seen it happen. The progress and maturity is just not there. We have less excuse in our day than any other time in the past....but here we are staring down the barrel of another war in the middle of a pandemic and race riots! How intelligent are we? How good are we at addressing what is fundamentally wrong with the way humans think and act? We are no further forward than the Barbarians of old. :(

We all build it because until we are all at peace with our maker and each other the Kingdom cannot appear because it is not simply a bricks and mortar kingdom but one where hearts are united in love for God and each other.

If you have to wait for humans to get their act together, you do understand that from the Bible's perspective, that has never happened.....and it never will. Humans will never solve the problem because humans ARE the problem. It is God's actions by means of his son that will bring in the rulership of the Kingdom.....it will "come" ready or not and "crush" all corrupt human rulership out of existence and replace them as man's only government. The prophet Daniel says it will happen in our day....in the rulership of the current world powers. (Daniel 2:44) So now is the time to decide where we stand. Its not too late until God says it is....and that time, we believe, is fast approaching.

So I hope to be together with you in that kingdom. Actually we may be more closely related than we think. God bless.
Thank you, that would be my wish as well....but it will not wait for man to be ready.....it will come when God is ready, so this is why I believe we have to prepare ourselves for it as individuals along with our fellow worshippers. Jesus said his return would be just like the days of Noah...and here we are...the earth is again filled with violence. (Matthew 24:37-39) Its time for God to act and finish this mess once and for all.
That is how we see it.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That has certainly been very true in modern times...greed for profit is the driver of everything. But humans with selfish motives will never accomplish what only God's Kingdom can achieve IMO.



I too believe this, but I think we just have a different view on how it will be achieved.

The one necessary ingredient to the successful implementation of the Kingdom's rule is man's co-operation with God so that his guidance will be followed and his laws obeyed. When God has given humans free will, that is a precarious balance. God will never force people to obey him so what do you believe is the solution to this dilemma? How can this level of cooperation ever be achieved when humans in this day and age are less spiritual than their last century counterparts, who were different again from theirs. Humans are getting less spiritual and more secular, more materialistic, more greedy, more lazy, more immoral, and still divided racially in their thinking.....so how will the current level of cooperation (lack of it) ever overcome these obstacles? Are Baha'i's just highly optimistic or very naive?

As we see it, in this world, God is giving everyone an opportunity to express their free will, but they also have the guidance that he has provided in his instruction manual. This gives us humans two choices....to acquaint ourselves with God's requirements and laws, and then decide if we will act on them....or not. It has to be our choice...to obey God from the heart without reservation.

But realistically, from man's history, we can see that the majority choose to please themselves rather than to please God. This ingrained selfishness can be overcome but we have to want to please God more than we want to please ourselves. You can only come to love God on that level if you really know him and see what he has done in the past, and what he is doing now, and what he will do in the future, because he has already told us all about it.



Yes, and I have hope that this scripture in Isaiah will have a literal fulfillment as well. None of God's creatures will do any harm to humans or each other either. His prophesy predicts that God's worshippers will put down their weapons and make farming implements out of them. There will be no more war. But in order for all that to take place, God must remove all causes of harm and eliminate from existence all those who will not peacefully co-exist with their fellow man. For the sake of the faithful, God must eliminate the unfaithful. His Kingdom cannot function amid division and animosity.

Jesus will come and he will separate the "sheep from the goats", ushering in a new age of peace, but only after he has cleansed the earth of all who would threaten the peace of others. Its all written down for us, so it will take place as God promises.



In all of man's history, we have never seen it happen. The progress and maturity is just not there. We have less excuse in our day than any other time in the past....but here we are staring down the barrel of another war in the middle of a pandemic and race riots! How intelligent are we? How good are we at addressing what is fundamentally wrong with the way humans think and act? We are no further forward than the Barbarians of old. :(



If you have to wait for humans to get their act together, you do understand that from the Bible's perspective, that has never happened.....and it never will. Humans will never solve the problem because humans ARE the problem. It is God's actions by means of his son that will bring in the rulership of the Kingdom.....it will "come" ready or not and "crush" all corrupt human rulership out of existence and replace them as man's only government. The prophet Daniel says it will happen in our day....in the rulership of the current world powers. (Daniel 2:44) So now is the time to decide where we stand. Its not too late until God says it is....and that time, we believe, is fast approaching.


Thank you, that would be my wish as well....but it will not wait for man to be ready.....it will come when God is ready, so this is why I believe we have to prepare ourselves for it as individuals along with our fellow worshippers. Jesus said his return would be just like the days of Noah...and here we are...the earth is again filled with violence. (Matthew 24:37-39) Its time for God to act and finish this mess once and for all.
That is how we see it.

I agree we can’t experience the kingdom of God on earth if humanity doesn’t turn to God but as we have freedom of choice it’s going to take a long time unless the fires of suffering burn us enough to question our own ways.

While there is so much faith in man’s ways let them come to fruition and then when we taste the consequences of our bad actions and decisions I think we will run back to God having realised His ways are the only path to true happiness
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I am thoroughly religious. Do I have your permission to participate? :)
Are you hoping to prophesy against the evils of missionaries? We are really talking about miracles and what they could be for religiously.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
Miracles don't exist. They are hoax.

Miracles do exist. Life is a miracle. This entire universe is a miracle. Everything co-existing in balance. Do you have any idea how easy it would be for life to be wiped out entirely? How easily it could be for the balance that we enjoy to be taken from us? During the time of the Spanish Flu, there was a high mortality in healthy people, including those in the 20-40 year age group, which was a unique feature of this pandemic. What if something like this were to occur again? A flu pandemic, such as the one in 1918, occurs when an especially virulent new influenza strain for which there’s little or no immunity appears and spreads quickly from person to person around the globe. We all enjoy our freedom but life is unpredictable. Anything could happen to our planet which could poison the air, the seas, disrupt the planet's biodiversity, make resources difficult to attain etc. Life on this earth has existed for thousands of years and Yahweh has miraculous preserved us alive. And how do people thank Yahweh? They thank Him by rejecting His Word, sadly.

Miracles do happen. I've seen them. No I haven't seen in person the Red Sea dividing, or Jordan splitting, or bread falling from heaven, or the Messiah walking on water, but I have seen prayers answered. People who were told they were going to die by the doctors suddenly receiving healing. I've seen prayers being answered in my life. Miracles go to confirm belief in Yahweh and miracles do happen to those who have faith and are sincere in seeking Yahweh.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
miracles are for those who cannot see.....

the parables are the light
but if you cannot see the light.....you are blind

so.....a miracle is performed
a crutch for the lame is provided

it's so you can follow
you could not see the reason to follow
so you were given a cause to follow

like hey......if ever I saw a Man walk on water
I would follow Him anywhere
and I would be afraid to close my eyes to sleep
that He might not be there when I awaken

but cause to follow is not the same as ....reason to follow

that was suppose to be found in the parables
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Miracles are stories or sleight of hand by some people to impress the ignorant. There is no evidence that any handicapped ever got his/her limbs back.
In that case why don't you stop all medication and ventilation for covid afflicted and ask them to pray in church
Let the miracle happen, if West did not have had enough of it by now.
MAYBE I saw a miracle. What IS a miracle anyway?
The miracle is that there are so many gullible.
Miracles in my opinion are very childish and immature and are one reason religion is failing to solve current day problems because they wait for miracles.
Yeah but was not the 'Maid of Heaven' appearing before Bahaollah, a miracle. Bahaollah fulfilling all the prophecies of Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sebaeans, Hindus and Buddhists. Was that not a miracle?
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think that the word "miracle" is used a little loose here. Technically, a miracle is when the natural course of events is unexplainably changed, like a person who is on a death bed and then the next day they are completely whole.
That's actually not a miracle. It's a common phenomena known variously as Terminal Lucidity, or "surging".

Terminal lucidity, rally before death or end-of-life rally, refers to an unexpected return of mental clarity and memory, or suddenly regained consciousness that occurs in the time shortly before death in patients suffering from severe psychiatric or neurological disorders.​

Technically, what the doctor experienced was more of what is called "a word of knowledge" where God unlocks a specific word for His purposes.
That's an interesting application of interpreting that term from scripture, which really nobody truly understands. I suppose it could be applied that way, but the same thing happens to non-Christians, so then if that is the "word of knowledge" as a gift of the Spirit, then God gives those same gifts to non-Christians. Are you prepared to acknowledge that?

It is said that George Washing Carver asked God to show him the mysteries of the Universe and God replied that his mind was too small to grasp the mysteries of the Universe. Then God said, "But I will show you the mysteries of a peanut" and God unravelled the mysteries to his mind and saved the farms of the south.

Word of Knowledge.
I had to look this up. He's quite the gifted storyteller. Not sure I'd take everything he says in this literally, but it is an effective way of talking up his products he devised by using peanuts. It reads like a yarn, something Mark Twain might have spun. Read it in his words:

Dr. Willis D. Weatherford, President of Blue Ridge, introduced him as the speaker. With his high voice surprising the audience, Dr. Carver exclaimed humorously:

"I always look forward to introductions as opportunities to learn something about myself ..."

He continued:

"Years ago I went into my laboratory and said, 'Dear Mr. Creator, please tell me what the universe was made for?'

The Great Creator answered, 'You want to know too much for that little mind of yours. Ask for something more your size, little man.'

Then I asked, 'Please, Mr. Creator, tell me what man was made for.'

Again the Great Creator replied, 'You are still asking too much. Cut down on the extent and improve the intent.'

So then I asked, 'Please, Mr. Creator, will you tell me why the peanut was made?'

'That's better, but even then it's infinite. What do you want to know about the peanut?'

'Mr. Creator, can I make milk out of the peanut?'

'What kind of milk do you want? Good Jersey milk or just plain boarding house milk?'

'Good Jersey milk.'

And then the Great Creator taught me to take the peanut apart and put it together again. And out of the process have come forth all these products!"​

It's a cleaver, and humorous story. I don't read it as a literal fact.

Source: George Washington Carver, his Faith, & the Peanut

But I believe that God does intervene with miracles.
That human individuals may have special gifts, that's not God intervening. The problem with believing God intervenes, is explaining why he doesn't when he surely should.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That's actually not a miracle. It's a common phenomena known variously as Terminal Lucidity, or "surging".

Terminal lucidity, rally before death or end-of-life rally, refers to an unexpected return of mental clarity and memory, or suddenly regained consciousness that occurs in the time shortly before death in patients suffering from severe psychiatric or neurological disorders.

Although what you said may be true but your application of what I said is too narrow. A real life application is a friend of mine called Candace. Born without one ear drum and without an ear. Multiple X-rays confirming that she simply didn't have it. (the other ear was fine.

Natural course - doctors said "nothing we can do".

After an evening prayer she said "I can hear out of my ear". Sent her to the doctors and they confirmed an ear drum is present and all we have to do is cut an opening (since skin covered the hole)

That would be classified as a miracle

That's an interesting application of interpreting that term from scripture, which really nobody truly understands. I suppose it could be applied that way, but the same thing happens to non-Christians, so then if that is the "word of knowledge" as a gift of the Spirit, then God gives those same gifts to non-Christians. Are you prepared to acknowledge that?

I wouldn't say "nobody" as the 9 gifts are taught in an abundance of Bible Universities. Perhaps the average person doesn't understand?

I never said God couldn't use a non-Christian. God spoke to Nebuchadnezzar and he wasn't a Christian. For that matter God spoke to Pilates wife in a dread and she wasn't a Christian.

It's a cleaver, and humorous story. I don't read it as a literal fact.

Source: George Washington Carver, his Faith, & the Peanut

:) But a good story - non-the-less (if your quote is correct)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Although what you said may be true but your application of what I said is too narrow. A real life application is a friend of mine called Candace. Born without one ear drum and without an ear. Multiple X-rays confirming that she simply didn't have it. (the other ear was fine.

Natural course - doctors said "nothing we can do".

After an evening prayer she said "I can hear out of my ear". Sent her to the doctors and they confirmed an ear drum is present and all we have to do is cut an opening (since skin covered the hole)

That would be classified as a miracle
It's a miracle the doctors missed something the first time around? That said, however, I do believe in the power of the body to heal itself, especially when directed by intention, which is what prayer does, which is focused intention. A true miracle, would not have required the doctors to cut an opening. But I'll accept that a healing happened. There are countless examples of these worldwide, in all systems of belief and faith.

I wouldn't say "nobody" as the 9 gifts are taught in an abundance of Bible Universities. Perhaps the average person doesn't understand?
They are mentioned in the Bible, but the details of what the "gift of knowledge" actually is, is lacking. It mentions it, not explains it. The various attempts to teach what it is, are speculative and dependent upon who it is explaining it, such as the Pentecostals explanation of it. "Sister Ruth had the gift of knowledge tonight." I'm unconvinced by that.

I never said God couldn't use a non-Christian. God spoke to Nebuchadnezzar and he wasn't a Christian. For that matter God spoke to Pilates wife in a dread and she wasn't a Christian.
But does God give the gifts of the Spirit to the unsaved, according to you?

:) But a good story - non-the-less (if your quote is correct)
It's a good story, "Mr. Creator," and the amusing answers "God" in this yarn tells him. Clearly, this isn't a testimony of a supernatural miracle. I have no reason to doubt the source. Do you?
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
I only heard about miracles. But with words you can say anything.

Hi Syo. Good afternoon. In today's society, we don't have the miracles yet that accompanied the great prophets of old, but I believe that time is coming. With words I can say anything, yes, but I have experienced miracles. I have seen miracles in the lives of other people who have prayed and received answers to those prayers. I'm hesitant to tell you about miracles that I have seen because I know that unless you have seen them for yourself, you are going to be sceptical. And no wonder, they are so many fake preachers and pretenders in today's society as 2 Timothy 3:13 tells us.

In any case, don't seek a sign. Don't seek a miracle to believe. People who seek miracles are led astray. The Pharisees sought this from Yahshua all the time, such as in Mark 8:11-13. Yet He did many miracles, they sought from Him more miracles. No wonder he sighed so deeply in his spirit when they came asking for signs. I recognise that sometimes the only thing that can suddenly change a persons heart from disbelief to belief is a miracle. This was the case with EliYah in 1 Kings 18. However, we have recorded many miracles in the Bible and we have to read the Bible in order to start believing what the Word says. When people start obeying the commandments, they'll see a change in their character that can only be described as a miracle and it's that that is the most important miracle of all.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
They are mentioned in the Bible, but the details of what the "gift of knowledge" actually is, is lacking. It mentions it, not explains it. The various attempts to teach what it is, are speculative and dependent upon who it is explaining it, such as the Pentecostals explanation of it. "Sister Ruth had the gift of knowledge tonight." I'm unconvinced by that.

Certainly you could be unconvinced. However, my statement still holds. It is widely taught but most people don't go to Bible school

But does God give the gifts of the Spirit to the unsaved, according to you?

Well, take the example of Cornelius with a word of knowledge. He dreams to send someone to Peter at such and such address.

Meanwhile Peter also has a dream (word of knowledge) of people coming and to go with them.

Cornelius wasn't a Christian and Peter was.

It's a good story, "Mr. Creator," and the amusing answers "God" in this yarn tells him. Clearly, this isn't a testimony of a supernatural miracle. I have no reason to doubt the source. Do you?

No, I don't. :) but love the analogy. I believe he still gave the unlocking of the secrets of the peanut as a revelation given by God.

EDIT: ADDED

It's a miracle the doctors missed something the first time around? That said, however, I do believe in the power of the body to heal itself, especially when directed by intention, which is what prayer does, which is focused intention. A true miracle, would not have required the doctors to cut an opening. But I'll accept that a healing happened. There are countless examples of these worldwide, in all systems of belief and faith.

Yes, for someone who doesn't believe there is always "an answer" that supports their belief. Maybe that is why Jesus said 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”?

Someone would say, "They just misdiagnosed and weren't really dead" and they would support that with cases where it was true but at the expense of those who really were dead - like Lazarus for 4 days and "he stinketh"
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Certainly you could be unconvinced. However, my statement still holds. It is widely taught but most people don't go to Bible school
To illustrate why I said what I said,

Throughout church history, this gift has often been viewed as a teaching gift and connected with being able to understand scriptural truth.[1] The Catholic Encyclopedia defines it as "the grace of propounding the Faith effectively, of bringing home to the minds and hearts of the listener with Divine persuasiveness, the hidden mysteries and the moral precepts of Christianity".[2]

Among Pentecostal and some Charismatic Christians, the word of knowledge is often defined as the ability of one person to know what God is currently doing or intends to do in the life of another person. It can also be defined as knowing the secrets of another person's heart. Through this revelation, it is believed that God encourages the faith of the believer to receive the healing or comfort that God offers.[1] For example, in a public gathering, a person who claims to have the gift of knowledge may describe a medical problem (such as syphilis or trench foot) and ask anyone suffering from the described problem to identify themselves and receive an effective prayer for healing.[3] According to this definition, the word of knowledge is a form of revelation similar to prophecy or a type of discernment.[1]

As you can clearly see, the Pentecostals have a particular way of understanding this, versus other Christian groups. So it is a matter of the church's particular theology that determines its meaning. It is not explained in scripture itself, but simply mentioned. My view is that whatever Paul meant, is open to interpretation, because it is not expressly explained in scripture.

Source: Word of Knowledge - Wikipedia.

Well, take the example of Cornelius with a word of knowledge. He dreams to send someone to Peter at such and such address.

Meanwhile Peter also has a dream (word of knowledge) of people coming and to go with them.

Cornelius wasn't a Christian and Peter was.
Cornelius's experienced are detailed in scripture, but nowhere does it say this is the gift of the word of knowledge. He had a vision. He heard things. Is that the gift of the word of knowledge? It doesn't say that. Lots of people have visions and dreams. But does scripture say that's the gift of the word of knowledge?

What you are doing is starting with a definition of what it is, which is based upon speculation then stated as fact. Then you find examples supporting the definition. This is not good hermeneutics.

No, I don't. :) but love the analogy. I believe he still gave the unlocking of the secrets of the peanut as a revelation given by God.
I believe humans can know a great deal more than what is apparent to us, if we set our minds correctly. But I believe this is universally true, not religion specific.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Among Pentecostal and some Charismatic Christians, the word of knowledge is often defined as the ability of one person to know what God is currently doing or intends to do in the life of another person. It can also be defined as knowing the secrets of another person's heart.

And thus, like I said, it is being taught and understood. Do other people have different views - of course. But my position isn't an anomaly.

Cornelius's experienced are detailed in scripture, but nowhere does it say this is the gift of the word of knowledge. He had a vision. He heard things. Is that the gift of the word of knowledge? It doesn't say that. Lots of people have visions and dreams. But does scripture say that's the gift of the word of knowledge?

What you are doing is starting with a definition of what it is, which is based upon speculation then stated as fact. Then you find examples supporting the definition. This is not good hermeneutics.
As I defined it, it does. Regardless whether you believe it is a word of knowledge or not... it still shows that God does use supernatural gifts to talk to non-Christians (doesn't matter if you have knowledge of scripture or not). As mentioned before Nebuchadnezzar had no knowledge but God still gave him a dream. Pilates wife was not a Christian but God still used a supernatural moment.

So unless you can refute these three examples, my position stands.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And thus, like I said, it is being taught and understood. Do other people have different views - of course. But my position isn't an anomaly.
I never implied it was. At the outset, I said Pentecostals have a particular interpretation of it. My point is, it's not something explicitly explained in scripture. Different groups have different interpretations of what that unexplained gift that Paul mentions actually is. It's speculation. You can't say, "this is what it is". At best you can say, "My group reads it this way".

As I defined it, it does. Regardless whether you believe it is a word of knowledge or not... it still shows that God does use supernatural gifts to talk to non-Christians (doesn't matter if you have knowledge of scripture or not). As mentioned before Nebuchadnezzar had no knowledge but God still gave him a dream. Pilates wife was not a Christian but God still used a supernatural moment.
But the word of knowledge is listed as one of the gifts of the Spirit. Having visions, and having a gift of the Spirit are different things. Does God give the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the "unsaved" according to you? Does God put his Spirit in them? If so, then do you believe that when practitioners of Voodoo are speaking in tongues, which they do, that this is also God? That gift is also mentioned in 1 Cor. 12.

If you accept that other religions speaking in tongues, which there are, are doing so through the Holy Spirit, then you are definitely pushing your standard Pentecostal theology beyond its boundaries of who it claims is saved verses unsaved. If you claim these are "fake-tongues", or inspired by the devil, then how do you qualify that these other gifts are from God, but not in this case? I don't see how you can have it both ways.

BTW, I'm not clear whether or not you consider yourself part of the Pentecostal or Charismatic groups. Do you?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm not sure where we are heading with all this, but regardless.

I never implied it was. At the outset, I said Pentecostals have a particular interpretation of it. My point is, it's not something explicitly explained in scripture. Different groups have different interpretations of what that unexplained gift that Paul mentions actually is. It's speculation. You can't say, "this is what it is". At best you can say, "My group reads it this way".

The problem, IMV, is that you can find beliefs all over a spectrum. As I look at the official definition given by the Catholic Church, I find it lacking. Not to mention I know many Catholics who agree with my position (because they judged the two positions?)

If you want me to say "My group reads it this way and I believe has my understanding has the greater support" - then count it as done.

But the word of knowledge is listed as one of the gifts of the Spirit. Having visions, and having a gift of the Spirit are different things. Does God give the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the "unsaved" according to you? Does God put his Spirit in them? If so, then do you believe that when practitioners of Voodoo are speaking in tongues, which they do, that this is also God? That gift is also mentioned in 1 Cor. 12.

I'm not sure where you are going with this. In Acts Chapter 2 it says that when the Spirit of God enters people they will dream dreams and have visions. Does that discount the OT times when they had dreams?

Or is there another understanding that needs to be developed.

As far as Voodoo, do I discount 2 Cor 11: 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. or are you just playing the Devils Advocate.

If you accept that other religions speaking in tongues, which there are, are doing so through the Holy Spirit, then you are definitely pushing your standard Pentecostal theology beyond its boundaries of who it claims is saved verses unsaved. If you claim these are "fake-tongues", or inspired by the devil, then how do you qualify that these others are of God, but not in this case? I don't see how you can have it both ways.

Please refer to the above answer. Or, if you are really interested, rephrase. (EDITED)

I never implied it was. At the outset, I said Pentecostals have a particular interpretation of it. My point is, it's not something explicitly explained in scripture. Different groups have different interpretations of what that unexplained gift that Paul mentions actually is. It's speculation. You can't say, "this is what it is". At best you can say, "My group reads it this way".

As I said, after judging interpretations (which there can be hundreds in any subject) - I believe mine has the greater logic and support. But I don't hold it against you if you believe otherwise. You certainly haven't proven my position wrong. Listing other people's position doesn't invalidate mine. So, read both and come to your own viewpoint.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As far as Voodoo, do I discount 2 Cor 11: 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. or are you just playing the Devils Advocate.
No. I'm bringing that up because I know that is the response. Yet curiously enough, when pagans have these gift of the word of knowledge, that that is not Satan, but God? How are you discerning this? How do you dismiss other religions as Satan inspired when they manifest the same gifts?

BTW, nowhere does it say that Satan can fake the gifts of the HS. Can Satan fake the fruits of the Spirit? Isn't that saying what the Pharisees said about Jesus, that his gifts and miracles were the devil? Yet, Jesus answered that the same way I would upon hearing this selective dismissal of these universal gifts of the Spirit. "Can a house divided against itself stand?"


As I said, after judging interpretations (which there can be hundreds in any subject) - I believe mine has the greater logic and support. But I don't hold it against you if you believe otherwise.
Everyone believes that how they think is the most reasonable. It's our natural biases. Greater support? That depends what your criteria for proper support is.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No. I'm bringing that up because I know that is the response. Yet curiously enough, when pagans have these gift of the word of knowledge, that that is not Satan, but God? How are you discerning this? How do you dismiss other religions as Satan inspired when they manifest the same gifts?

That isn't hard to answer: 1 John 4: 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You would never have a Voodoo person acknowledge Jesus Christ, confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. You can test the spirits

BTW, nowhere does it say that Satan can fake the gifts of the HS. Can Satan fake the fruits of the Spirit? Isn't that saying what the Pharisees said about Jesus, that his gifts and miracles were the devil? Yet, Jesus answered that the same way I would upon hearing this selective dismissal of these universal gifts of the Spirit. "Can a house divided against itself stand?"

Why are you changing the goal posts from "gifts" to "fruit".

Acts 16: 16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Yes, there are spirits that try to imitate God's gifts - and even acknowledged that Paul was a servant of God.

Everyone believes that how they think is the most reasonable. It's our natural biases. Greater support? That depends what your criteria for proper support is.
 
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