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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Did you think the following translators read koine Greek? I don't read it, but I can look it up in an interlinear sometime..But that is not really your point, is it? Because you seem to believe Mary was NOT a virgin and that the story was taken from some other account.
So, do you think the following translators (other than the 2 out of more than 25 translations) read Koine Greek or perhaps you think they all translated improperly, as it seems you are implying?

Luke 1:27
New International Version
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

New Living Translation
to a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of King David.

English Standard Version
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary.

Berean Study Bible
to a virgin pledged in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary.

Berean Literal Bible
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the name of the virgin was Mary.

New American Standard Bible
to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

New King James Version
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

King James Bible
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Christian Standard Bible
to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Contemporary English Version
with a message for a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to Joseph from the family of King David.

Good News Translation
He had a message for a young woman promised in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was a descendant of King David. Her name was Mary.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

International Standard Version
to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

NET Bible
to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.

New Heart English Bible
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
To a virgin who was engaged to a man from the house of David, whose name was Yoseph, and the name of the virgin was Maryam.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The angel went to a virgin promised in marriage to a descendant of David named Joseph. The virgin's name was Mary.

New American Standard 1977
to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

King James 2000 Bible
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

American King James Version
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

American Standard Version
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Douay-Rheims Bible
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Darby Bible Translation
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name [was] Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.

English Revised Version
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Webster's Bible Translation
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Weymouth New Testament
to a maiden betrothed to a man of the name of Joseph, a descendant of David. The maiden's name was Mary.

World English Bible
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Young's Literal Translation
to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name is Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin is
The particular translation doesn't matter. Many translations don't go back to the "original" Greek texts -- they merely change the wording of other translations. I'm telling you that the word doesn't mean "virgin." It means "young woman." The story is so ingrained in the cultural imagination that to use anything other than "virgin" would destroy the mythos of the story.

However, let's go with your belief that it really, historically was a virgin birth. In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm? You're only supporting the argument that Jesus is divine.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The particular translation doesn't matter. Many translations don't go back to the "original" Greek texts -- they merely change the wording of other translations. I'm telling you that the word doesn't mean "virgin." It means "young woman." The story is so ingrained in the cultural imagination that to use anything other than "virgin" would destroy the mythos of the story.

However, let's go with your belief that it really, historically was a virgin birth. In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm? You're only supporting the argument that Jesus is divine.
It has already been explained to you that divine can mean of God, among other variations.
"of, from, or like God or a god." You might look at this definition.
"To err is human, to forgive divine" means that everyone makes mistakes, but we should try to be like god and forgive one another. Divine basically means relating to, coming from, or like God or a god. (dictionary.com)
 

1213

Well-Known Member

1) God and Jesus are both Saviours…

The difference is, Jesus acts in the power of God, he could not do it without God, therefore God is the true savior and Jesus is "only" the mediator between God and men.

Jesus therefore answered them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
John 5:19

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

…2) God and Jesus are both called Lord or Lords

Jesus is the King of Jews and kings can be called lord also.

…5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

But can he be almighty, when it is said this:

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28

God has exalted Jesus, and God remains greater than Jesus.

…6) They both are said to have created all things

Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him …

I think it is good to notice, it says “through him”. God created though Jesus.

…7) Jesus is called God by Thomas, Peter, Paul, and John 1:1

John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"…

Not really, he says "My Lord and my God!”, they both were there, because as the Bible tells, God dwells in Jesus.

… the Father who lives in me does his works. …
John 14:10-14

…8) Jesus' name means "With us is God"

Yes, and as said before, God dwells in Jesus and therefore it can be said, God is with us.

…9) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Bible tells God has given His name to Jesus.

…keep them through your name which you have given me…
John 17:11

…10) When Jesus uses "I Am" …

Paul does the same, is he also God?
(For example Acts 26:29)

…11) God calls Jesus God

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Also, other beings have been called god the same way:

I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
Psalms 82:6-7

…12) Jesus says that he will raise his body from the dead
John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." ...he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this...

But, Jesus tells he speaks what God has commanded him to speak, so, are those words of Jesus, or words of God?

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

…13) Jesus says if you see him, you see the father

John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

Yes, God is in Jesus and comes visible in Jesus, because Jesus is the image of God. Person who has seen the image, has seen also God.

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 1:14
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It has already been explained to you that divine can mean of God, among other variations.
"of, from, or like God or a god." You might look at this definition.
"To err is human, to forgive divine" means that everyone makes mistakes, but we should try to be like god and forgive one another. Divine basically means relating to, coming from, or like God or a god. (dictionary.com)
You're grasping at straws here. Either Jesus is 1) human, or 2) divine. Which is it?
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
The difference is, Jesus acts in the power of God, he could not do it without God, therefore God is the true savior and Jesus is "only" the mediator between God and men.


Jesus is God-Man.

  1. Are you aware that Jesus is worshiped?
  • Heb. 1:6, "Let the angels do proskuneo to him."
  • Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

The Lamb receives Worship
  • REVELATION 5:11-14: “And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, ‘Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.’ And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, ‘To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.’ And the four living creatures kept saying, ‘Amen.’ And the elders fell down and worshiped.”

2. Are you aware Jesus is prayed to?
  • John 14:14 “If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do.”
  • My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You're grasping at straws here. Either Jesus is 1) human, or 2) divine. Which is it?
First, the word 'divine' does not mean 'god a trinity of 3 co-equals.' To be clearer, the word divine means: of God, in other words, "relating to, coming from, or like God or a god." (dictionary.com) Jesus is most assuredly 'of God,' and is described as Mighty God at Isaiah 9:6. He is not, however, god-in-human-form, as if God is trapped in the flesh, somehow co-equal to two other persons in a unit of 3. Jesus demonstrated that he was the foretold Messiah.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus is most assuredly 'of God,' and is described as Mighty God at Isaiah 9:6.
Ok. So you're admitting that Jesus is divine.

He is not, however, god-in-human-form,
One wonders, though, how you can reconcile such a statement in light of passages like Philippians 2 and Isaiah (Emmanuel).

So you've answered my question. Jesus is not human. Jesus is divine. Correct?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The particular translation doesn't matter. Many translations don't go back to the "original" Greek texts -- they merely change the wording of other translations. I'm telling you that the word doesn't mean "virgin." It means "young woman." The story is so ingrained in the cultural imagination that to use anything other than "virgin" would destroy the mythos of the story.

However, let's go with your belief that it really, historically was a virgin birth. In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm? You're only supporting the argument that Jesus is divine.
I KNOW what the word almah means. Perhaps you didn't think so. On the other hand, you indicate that it is like a myth that Mary was really a virgin.
Also, and noticeably, you say 'many' translations don't go back to the original Greek texts as if these translators were shoddy in their work, including the Douay-Rheims, the King James and many others..Yes, almah is a Hebrew word, and as used in the Hebrew portion of the Scriptures certainly inclines on the side of meaning virgin, although technically it means young woman. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Mary had sexual relations and was not a virgin when she conceived Jesus.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ok. So you're admitting that Jesus is divine.


One wonders, though, how you can reconcile such a statement in light of passages like Philippians 2 and Isaiah (Emmanuel).

So you've answered my question. Jesus is not human. Jesus is divine. Correct?
(lol...is that what you think I said? <smile>) When Jesus was on the earth, he had divine qualities. As another said here, Adam had divine qualities. There is a different between Adam and Jesus, though. (Don't you think so?)
Do you think he was he God in human form yet equal to the other two persons of the godhead? Furthermore, what is your definition of divine? I gave you a definition. And I agree with it. Jesus was and is divine, since he came from God, went back TO God. Does the word divine mean to you that Jesus is "God, a person equal to the other two persons called God?" (Please explain if you will.) That Jesus came from God and had divine qualities from God is clear. But -- <soft smile here> -- he is not and was not "God-the-son-in-the-flesh equal to two persons called God the Father and God the Holy Spirit."
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
First, the word 'divine' does not mean 'god a trinity of 3 co-equals.' To be clearer, the word divine means: of God, in other words, "relating to, coming from, or like God or a god." (dictionary.com) Jesus is most assuredly 'of God,' and is described as Mighty God at Isaiah 9:6. He is not, however, god-in-human-form, as if God is trapped in the flesh, somehow co-equal to two other persons in a unit of 3. Jesus demonstrated that he was the foretold Messiah.

The word divine has more than one meaning. Divine also means: Godhead, Lord, Creator, Maker, Divine, God Almighty, Almighty, Jehovah

The JWs use the other meaning of divine which is, godlike. But John 1:1 says that "the Word was God", not the Word was divine. Only God is prayed to; only God is worship, only God forgives sins and only Jesus is called God with a capital "G".
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Yes, God is in Jesus and comes visible in Jesus, because Jesus is the image of God. Person who has seen the image, has seen also God.


Colossians 1:14

It sounds like you agree with me here. God is in Jesus but not the father who is in heaven. Jesus is God-man. The Father is God. They both God.
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
The difference is, Jesus acts in the power of God, he could not do it without God, therefore God is the true savior and Jesus is "only" the mediator between God and men.

Jesus therefore answered them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
John 5:19

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Right because Jesus is in a lower position but he is still God. These are two persons. Father God and Jesus Gon-man. They are not the same. One is the father and the other the son.


Jesus is the King of Jews and kings can be called lord also.

That's a false comparison. None of them are given the title of Jesus such as God with a capital "G" or Son of God, etc.

But can he be almighty, when it is said this:

For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
1 Cor. 15:27-28

God has exalted Jesus, and God remains greater than Jesus.


I think it is good to notice, it says “through him”. God created though Jesus.

Yes, because Jesus humbled Himself to the Father. But he still is God. Like a wife humbled herself to her husband it does not make her a lesser human.

Not really, he says "My Lord and my God!”, they both were there, because as the Bible tells, God dwells in Jesus.

Now you making something up. The scriptures does not say that. It just says that when he saw Jesus Thomas responded that way. Don't add your own words.

Also, other beings have been called god the same way:

I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
Psalms 82:6-7

None of them are called God with a capital "G" as in the "Word was God" And none were able to forgive sins, be prayed to and be worshiped.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I KNOW what the word almah means. Perhaps you didn't think so. On the other hand, you indicate that it is like a myth that Mary was really a virgin.
Also, and noticeably, you say 'many' translations don't go back to the original Greek texts as if these translators were shoddy in their work, including the Douay-Rheims, the King James and many others..Yes, almah is a Hebrew word, and as used in the Hebrew portion of the Scriptures certainly inclines on the side of meaning virgin, although technically it means young woman. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Mary had sexual relations and was not a virgin when she conceived Jesus.
You neglected to answer the question I put to you. "In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm?"
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
When Jesus was on the earth, he had divine qualities.
Do other human beings have "divine qualities?" What are the differences in those qualities? Do other human beings have "divine qualities" that call them out as somehow "special?"

Jesus was and is divine, since he came from God, went back TO God.
Right. So Jesus is not human. He's divine. Correct?

That Jesus came from God and had divine qualities from God is clear.
What's unclear is what you're saying about Jesus and about divinity. Above you said that "Jesus was and is divine." Here, you claim that "Jesus had divine qualities." It appears as though you're hedging. So let's just settle this: Is Jesus divine? Yes or no.

Let's take another tack here:
is the Father divine? What makes him so?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You neglected to answer the question I put to you. "In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm?"
Let's look at your idea for a moment, then consider beyond that, if you will. One, you think Mary had sexual relations to get pregnant with Jesus, isn't that right? Two, you don't believe almah means or implies virgin. And three, you probably don't believe Adam was formed by God from dust and then God caused him to breathe. So if you can't follow that line of order, all I can tell you it was a miracle. But since you believe the creation of Adam by God, and Eve from Adam's rib is a myth, no use thinking for you about how Jesus came to be from a young woman who was not having relations with a man.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
The Deity of Christ: Scriptural Proof


  • John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV
  • John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. NIV
  • Philippians: 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God
  • Titus 2:13, "while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
  • 2 Peter 1:1, ..."the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ,"
If you deny Christ as God, you are denying scriptures.

Uh no your not . Read your own scripture Philippians 2:6 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage:

If he was God he would have used his Godship for his own advantage so all of us on earth would know he was God and worship in his religion. Then his gospel would have been written about by many authors who were not Christian at the time and we would all believe. Why would he not want that?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Let's look at your idea for a moment, then consider beyond that, if you will. One, you think Mary had sexual relations to get pregnant with Jesus, isn't that right? Two, you don't believe almah means or implies virgin. And three, you probably don't believe Adam was formed by God from dust and then God caused him to breathe. So if you can't follow that line of order, all I can tell you it was a miracle. But since you believe the creation of Adam by God, and Eve from Adam's rib is a myth, no use thinking for you about how Jesus came to be from a young woman who was not having relations with a man.
you're evading. In what way are full human beings born without benefit of human sperm? It's an easy question. Why don't you just answer it?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
That's a false comparison. None of them are given the title of Jesus such as God with a capital "G" or Son of God, etc.

By what I know, in the original text there is no capital “G”. And even if there is, it does not mean they are the same and as Bible tells, there is only one true God.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

It is interesting how people who claim Jesus is God, don’t really believe what he says.

None of them are called God with a capital "G" as in the "Word was God" And none were able to forgive sins, be prayed to and be worshiped.

They could be written with capital “G” as well. And why could they not declare forgiveness, if all disciples of Jesus can also forgive sins?

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

And, when some other people are also worshiped in the Bible, does it mean they are also God?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
It sounds like you agree with me here. God is in Jesus but not the father who is in heaven. Jesus is God-man. The Father is God. They both God.

Sorry, I don’t think that is what the Bible tells. I believe what the Bible tells.
 

1213

Well-Known Member

Are you aware that Jesus is worshiped?...
2. Are you aware Jesus is prayed to?

John 14:14 “If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do.”

So, if I ask something from you, does it mean I pray you?

Are you aware that there are other people in the Bible also who are worshiped?

Bathsheba therefore went to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. The king rose up to meet her, and bowed [shachah, proskuneo, also translated worship, meaning bow down] himself to her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a throne to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
1 Kings 2:19

Is Bathsheba also God?
 
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