The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[YoursTrue]

that still doesn't answer my question.

Yes, it does. You just fail to see the answer. By the way, is there only one "true" God, or might another, such as Shiva or Vishnu be a true god also?

 

[sojourner]

We all come from heaven? Exactly how do you figure? You think my mother did not have sexual relations with my father and an angel spoke to her and I just "came about"?

If Jesus is fully human, and if we are fully human as well, then if Jesus (a fully human person) came from heaven, we must all (being equally fully human) come from heaven. If Jesus came from heaven, but we do not, what does that say? Does it say that there's a difference between Jesus and the rest of us? What is that difference?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's immaterial. It doesn't answer my question.

I'll say it again -- embryos do not make decisions. In other words, they don't 'think.'

 

[sojourner]

Yes, it does. You just fail to see the answer. By the way, is there only one "true" God, or might another, such as Shiva or Vishnu be a true god also?

1) My question regarded Jesus' authority to be a gatekeeper if he was fully human. Are you saying that he's not fully human? If not, then what's the other "part" of Jesus?
2) God is God, Jehovah, YHVH, Great Spirit, Illitexi Wiracocha, Vishnu, Allah, etc. God is known by many names, and yet is the Unnameable One.

 

[sojourner]

I'll say it again -- embryos do not make decisions. In other words, they don't 'think.'

This applies to gatekeeping for God... how?

 

[YoursTrue]

If Jesus is fully human, and if we are fully human as well, then if Jesus (a fully human person) came from heaven, we must all (being equally fully human) come from heaven. If Jesus came from heaven, but we do not, what does that say? Does it say that there's a difference between Jesus and the rest of us? What is that difference?

LOL, at that point I'd leave your classroom, hoping not to laugh out loud. So the embryo was god, according to you.

 

[YoursTrue]

1) My question regarded Jesus' authority to be a gatekeeper if he was fully human. Are you saying that he's not fully human? If not, then what's the other "part" of Jesus?
2) God is God, Jehovah, YHVH, Great Spirit, Illitexi Wiracocha, Vishnu, Allah, etc. God is known by many names, and yet is the Unnameable One.

I'll try to keep it simple. You don't make sense, and at least you have the integrity to say that you really think Vishnu could be the one true God Jesus prayed to. LOL, ok, outta there...have a nice day.

 

[YoursTrue]

This applies to gatekeeping for God... how?

Well, I said outta there, but you got me. See -- Jesus was not god/man in any form or shape equal to the One True God he was praying to. And have a nice day. Bye for now.

 

[YoursTrue]

@sojourner -- and IF gatekeeper applies to Jesus, who said he was the ONLY way -- how about Vishnu and other gods? Maybe you think he sent them to other gods? (You're funny, by the way.)

 

[sojourner]

LOL, at that point I'd leave your classroom, hoping not to laugh out loud. So the embryo was god, according to you.

It doesn't matter what's "according to me." I'm asking you a simple question: if there's a difference between Jesus and the rest of us, what is that difference?

 

[sojourner]

I'll try to keep it simple. You don't make sense, and at least you have the integrity to say that you really think Vishnu could be the one true God Jesus prayed to. LOL, ok, outta there...have a nice day.

You're evading. If Jesus presents as having different experiences from every other human being, what does that say about Jesus?

 

[sojourner]

Well, I said outta there, but you got me. See -- Jesus was not god/man in any form or shape equal to the One True God he was praying to. And have a nice day. Bye for now.

Then what was Jesus?

 

[sojourner]

@sojourner -- and IF gatekeeper applies to Jesus, who said he was the ONLY way -- how about Vishnu and other gods? Maybe you think he sent them to other gods? (You're funny, by the way.)

There is only one God, yes?

 

[1213]

This argument has already been debunked. See #344

Sorry, I disagree with that. Bible tells God is greater than Jesus and I don’t think you can debunk that in any way.

In the post, it is said: “The word greater denotes a difference in rank or position.” I agree with that and it means they are not the same.

 

[SLPCCC]

The Deity of Christ: Scriptural Proof​

• John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV

• John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. NIV
• Philippians: 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God

• Titus 2:13, "while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

• 2 Peter 1:1, ..."the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ,"

If you deny Christ as God, you are denying scriptures.

 

[SLPCCC]

Sorry, I disagree with that. Bible tells God is greater than Jesus and I don’t think you can debunk that in any way.

In the post, it is said: “The word greater denotes a difference in rank or position.” I agree with that and it means they are not the same.

We agree that the word "greater" denotes a difference in rank or position. Jesus was not the father, but he was the son; however, he was equal in nature with God.

1) God and Jesus are both Saviours

• Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
• Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

2) God and Jesus are both called Lord or Lords

• Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
• Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

3) God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

4) They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

• Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

6) They both are said to have created all things

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7) Jesus is called God by Thomas, Peter, Paul, and John 1:1

• John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
• Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

8) Jesus' name means "With us is God"

• Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

9) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

10) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

11) God calls Jesus God

• Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

12) Jesus says that he will raise his body from the dead

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." ...he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this...
• John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”

13) Jesus says if you see him, you see the father

• John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

Also:

1. God calls Jesus Mighty God.
2. At John 1:1 the word is God
3. Jesus is prayed to
4. Jesus is worshiped

 

[SLPCCC]

In actuality, a proper understanding of how you say God calls Jesus God depends on several factors. One of which is the proper understanding of the meaning of the Psalm.

I'm beginning to think you are too indoctrinated. You need to pray to Jesus. I'll keep praying for you too.

 

[SLPCCC]

Christology is important for Trinity doctrine. All Gospels acknowledge Jesus as Christ but there were different perceptions of Jesus as Christ - early Christologies. What do you think about "low Christology" as in the gospel of Mark and Ebionites?

I'm aware of them and find them interesting. But that's why I was wondering how Athanasius convinced the Church that Arian was a heresy. The Apostolic Fathers, tradition, and scripture had to be his sources. I see that they teach the deity of Christ.

 

[YoursTrue]

Let's say you are right. Jesus is not God. You still have to see the fact that:

1. God calls Jesus Mighty God.
2. At John 1:1 the word is God
3. Jesus is prayed to
4. Jesus is worshiped

Therefore, you should call on the name of Jesus in prayer and worship and be saved.

Jesus is not God in the sense you ascribe to. He is not a co-equal among three.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm beginning to think you are too indoctrinated. You need to pray to Jesus. I'll keep praying for you.

I pray to the God and Father of Jesus by means of Jesus. Something you might not understand but hopefully you will.