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Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Brian2

Veteran Member
What is a "Jew in beliefs" who doesn't belong to Judaism?

Well if I was Isaiah or David or Samuel for example I would be a Jew in my beliefs (as well as genetically) but I would not belong to Judaism. Iows Judaism seems to be an interpretation that is not essential to be a Jew.

You heard wrong. Sorry.

But it does look that way in Daniel 26

Edit: by the way, happy birthday!

Thank you.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Well if I was Isaiah or David or Samuel for example I would be a Jew in my beliefs (as well as genetically) but I would not belong to Judaism. Iows Judaism seems to be an interpretation that is not essential to be a Jew.
I see. It seems to me that you're one of those people who think that Judaism is a post-exile invention. Traditional Judaism disagrees with the notion.
But it does look that way in Daniel 26
There's a difference between saying that you think verse X says something and saying that the rabbis (and Jews in general) also thought the same thing that you do (perhaps I should've added that bit to my earlier quote).
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I see it gives our lives meaning, it gives us the path to be born again from flesh into our spiritual selves. Jesus chose that path to show us what we can be in spirit and know that Christ always lives within us and we bring Christ out by living a selfless deed filled life, in service to each other.

Baha'u'llah put it this way, (note, I put in bold where I see it is inclusive of Jesus the Christ and all past Messengers)

"The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities!"

The sacrafice of Jesus the Christ is eternal and our path to salvation, it will never be outdated.

Regards Tony

If the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ is eternal and our path to salvation then why would Baha'u'llah have to come to be in chains for us and why does Baha'i tell us that the other dispensations have been abrogated?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That position is also that of the Jew and the Muslim. It is all in the way the Covenant is read and our personal humility. I see the major covenant is that God will send the Messengers and our first part to play is not to reject them.

Stand up anyone that thinks they are guided by the Holy Spirit given by a God. Those that do, face the tests given by scripture and pass or fail.

Regards Tony

The Hebrew scriptures actually tell us of the New Covenant and so in theory the Jews await it and it's bringer, but some Jews say the New Covenant is not going to happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even if their scripture tell them it is really going to be given. The Jews seem to think that they have all they need in the scriptures. They do not realise they need to be born again.
The Muslim scriptures tell them that Mohammad is the the final prophet according to them.
Christians also look to their scriptures and realise Jesus is it and He will return to finish things up in the world and judge us and rule as King over God's Kingdom which is brought to earth.
What is so special about Baha'u'llah that I should know that He is a Messenger from God when he disagrees with my scriptures?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The written after the fact reasoning was written by humans in the moment of those humans and living as the book writer in person. Not afterwards.

Afterwards is owned by natural conditions, that own no preaching about causation, which is just scientific philosophical relativity for scientists.

Earth O as a body is natural first, its heavenly gases natural first and origin, so was the male self before he spoke stories or theories in the sciences.

What science argues today, are self present but use information as if self is not present...and then even ignores that self is only present due to sperm and an ovary...then his biology reasoning falsely contends with that cellular small information ideal with all other science forms of his studies.

Which does not infer nor include the fact that those 2 small bodies of information grew into a human baby who grew into the adult science self, liar.

Science in modern day life totally ignored the relativity of the Jesus Christ teachings.

As science of the Satanic occult alchemy had also been outlawed, the common return and practices always brought about new male reasoning and theorising against the self destructive UFO occult Nature of the alchemist sciences.

Why it was reasoned.

And it is only self DNA/genetic ownership that is the storyteller self...not anyone else.

The name in each country of the science attack already owns in male self presence a variation to Genetics and DNA, hence always quotes his conscious idealisation in self present body/chemical and DNA life form.

Which is not relevant any other ideal of self...it is just self wisdom in the sciences.

Jesus was in fact a quoted GOD LAW O about how the probability calculation said that the life of sacrifice saved....meaning all life, for we no longer live as a human perfection without any flaw....which means beauty and also health in any condition.

So one human is ugly, another is beautiful, one contradicts the other...what was relatively taught in biological Genetic medical healer advice. So the cause was stated to be owned by the DNA genetics in Jerusalem, historically the reason for that advice...Muslim DNA males overtook and rebuilt and reutilised the Temple and pyramid ownership sciences....so the worst affected were in Jerusalem as the advice said.

Our family DNA said the Jews were the worst life affected/sacrificed.

So they proclaimed that their advice was correct.

Rome however in the re use of the Temple science was also attacked...so the agreement was an equal relative DNA advice. Why the name Jesus was that agreement.

For the name Zeus..............Zeus (British English / zj uː s /, North American English / z uː s / ; Ancient Greek : Ζεύς, Zeús [zdeǔ̯s]) is the sky and thunder god in ancient Greek religion, who rules as king of the gods of Mount Olympus

Je determined the reference to Jerusalem....so instead of Zeus, it was altered to a communal agreed reference Je sus. The very reason. To say it was communal.

Which stated that historically the O God planet inherited a spatial womb attack on human life, as the agreed statement what was personally witnessed. As an event.

You cannot use that event of witness today for any science reason, it would own no common logic. History is history and it is lived historically in the moment.

2012 said it would be the End of the return sacrifice of life and witnessing the IMAGE of Jesus/male life gone/removed in the cloud cause....ground water mass loss.

We never were taught that 2012 meant the returned sacrifice of life...would make no common sense when spatial conditions own natural cooling/evolution.

Science in nuclear 2012 power plant model, however did re introduce the sacrifice of our human life....why the mind today is totally confused about being taught relative future belief about stopping attack causes/radiation sciences....to the event not occurring. To life being re sacrificed, as if we returned in natural evolution history, had evolution removed and living a virtual reality again.

Time shifting is how it is taught today....as if Earth is re living ancient human history...when you cannot personally shift in time....the Earth evolution however can...by its losses.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The Hebrew scriptures actually tell us of the New Covenant and so in theory the Jews await it and it's bringer, but some Jews say the New Covenant is not going to happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even if their scripture tell them it is really going to be given. The Jews seem to think that they have all they need in the scriptures. They do not realise they need to be born again.
The Muslim scriptures tell them that Mohammad is the the final prophet according to them.
Christians also look to their scriptures and realise Jesus is it and He will return to finish things up in the world and judge us and rule as King over God's Kingdom which is brought to earth.
What is so special about Baha'u'llah that I should know that He is a Messenger from God when he disagrees with my scriptures?
Humans being born again, means by human sex, and not any other reasoning.

To be saved/healed in DNA genetics from one history to another means that if radiation occult science was stopped the mutated DNA sickness owned in that life....eventually would heal...and when you are reborn in a future that DNA would no longer be sick or mutated.

How biological medical Healer sciences was taught which was never occult nuclear science or its purposes....where the argument always stood.

Science owns a multi variable discussion of the relevance of being informed.

For since when does nuclear science use our bio life body for an energy resource function involving the body mass/energy of O God the Earth? Unless in their data/figures they know that a portion of the human life body cell health is going to be destroyed and removed....in the belief of a machine reacting?

Makes no other form of common sense logic to be inferring self presence to a stone planet energy O mass science named God.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
But it does look that way in Daniel 26
Here, I'll show you how Jews see the verse. It says:
"And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
It says "an anointed one", not "the anointed one" or "the Messiah" (as some Christian translations prefer to use whenever they translate verses they think refer to Jesus). On this thread there have been posted links to a number of Jewish interpretations of the verse, but none of those include the belief that this verse involves the death of the one true Messiah ben David. That's simply reading in something that isn't there.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The hundred-dollar question is: Saved from what?

Saved from the death that our sins bring on us.

The question is what was the payment for? Jesus did not say that He gave His life as a ransom for any original sin committed by Adam and Eve. Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus besought God to confer upon Him the honor of sacrificing Himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

Jesus was sent because He was the only one who could live a sinless life and be a spotless sacrifice as a sin offering as Isa 53:10 tells us He would be. So He offered Himself to set us free from bondage to sin and it's consequences. Jesus sacrifice makes any other sacrifice not necessary as Baha'u'llah seems to say.

I believe deeds are important, but faith is also important.

I Christianity good deeds are a consequence of our faith and are not a means of salvation.

There is only one Jesus and one gospel message; Baha’is just differ from Christians in how they interpret the gospel message or should I rather say what we differ on is what we consider to be the most important part of the gospel message.

It does not matter if the Dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. That does not mean we do not have to accept what was revealed previously. We have to accept everything Jesus and all the other Manifestations of God taught and we have to believe what their Missions were if we are to be true to the Unity of God:

Believe that God sent the Messengers of the past and believe the messages they brought (the messages according to Baha'i) but if the dispensation is abrogated, there is no benefit from their message or deeds and so you cannot be saved through the blood of Christ. Is that what you mean?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm pretty sure Baha'is believe in a lower nature in humans and they do not believe in a literal Satan but symbolise Satan and say he is this lower nature in us.
There is obeying the Messenger and being good enough in Baha'i as opposed to salvation being by the grace of God as in Christianity.
But I guess the concept of salvation is probably different to a Biblical one, which really is "eternal life" on the one hand and "death" on the other. Exactly what these terms mean is vague to people like me but there are others who are sure of what they mean even if they disagree with each other

It is important to not that it is only by God's grace that anyone is saved.

This is fundamental to Baha'i as well.

There is a two fold obligation on accepting the Messengers, first is Faith and then living the life.

It is God that gives Faith and takes it away and no one knows their end.
If the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ is eternal and our path to salvation then why would Baha'u'llah have to come to be in chains for us and why does Baha'i tell us that the other dispensations have been abrogated?

The question is indeed the quandary we face. What is abrogated is the Laws as these are renewed in each Dispensation. This is explained in detail in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

It shows us that we do not have to reject God because of the veil on Names. God is seen in all Names and all the Messengers.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Hebrew scriptures actually tell us of the New Covenant and so in theory the Jews await it and it's bringer, but some Jews say the New Covenant is not going to happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even if their scripture tell them it is really going to be given. The Jews seem to think that they have all they need in the scriptures. They do not realise they need to be born again.
The Muslim scriptures tell them that Mohammad is the the final prophet according to them.
Christians also look to their scriptures and realise Jesus is it and He will return to finish things up in the world and judge us and rule as King over God's Kingdom which is brought to earth.
What is so special about Baha'u'llah that I should know that He is a Messenger from God when he disagrees with my scriptures?

I say it's special if all the scriptures talk about such a day and then a Message is given saying it is bringing in that day.

The quandary is we all get to consider if it is special or if it is not.

I can say each day the world fulfill more and more of what is already foretold in the Baha'i Writings, uncannily in fact.

As such I, hope for you your safety and happiness.

Regards Tony
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The Bible self warning to living humans as they lived with science doing trans mutation of stone mass into the gain of gold says that the stone remained present and in presence whilst it was transported into a new fusion of mass, just a conversion.

How that affects the science mentality today is proven to have affected it with non realistic advice.

Sodom and Gomorrah was said to have existed being caused to sexual changes being the basis of any living being...their sexual self is origin and the purpose of all conscious ability to think and relate information through psyche.

Science said never infer to self being a creator male entity or female in science, as updated conscious awareness.

Not that the past was wrong....how the conscious expression about self creating was wrong...and that organization was a variable amongst other organizations and it belonged historically to the male holy selves, biologists in medical healer science.

Not God theism in Genetics Genesis....real biologists in medical practice.

What you are all wrong about.

o the ovary is incepted with sperm, change is inferred by the male Creator awareness to force change that body, to make it less, but then adding another body into it increased its Creator ability.

And imposed that reasoning to God the stone body history with given radiation UFO mass....but that was a ONE of event.

So historically they would have claimed extra energy was given to God, yet God rationally owned a converted mass that equalled its same mass...MASS, natural.

Today such statements as I know cosmic radiation background, yes it is cosmic radiation background in its naturally owned presence. What are you studying it for?

Being science no longer owning anyone to challenge them, question their authentic reasoning to reason, to own information to then force what they claim is relative in natural to be forcibly changed.

For if you first claim I am self first, I can think as that self first as a natural thinker, yet take natural thinking another step to machine and then reaction, then what you first thought is then changed.

Science should ask itself what is cosmic radiation back ground changed?

As being relative to relativity, thinking constantly for change.

2012 END was never relevant in modern day science, so they stopped using biblical probabilities as an updated occult organization...for it no longer was relative to idealising occult reasoning.

Therefore everyone should ask, who then is trying to impose that we move back in time as life to a history that was already lived on Earth in much higher and eviler living conditions of suffering? Such as plagues etc. and a commentary of Earth incoming natural disasters and cosmological attacking bodies?

As a huge list from the year 0AD to the Year 2020 to be relived as a theme....we travelled back in time by our time machine converter? For that is what you own a machine that science today says shifts time.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
no value.

Well that is evidently not true as people get a lot of wisdom out of it. I can say that from personal experience. Plus it has literary and creative value, such as the creativity in writing the book of Revelation. People learn a lot about Koine Greek from them. Are you sure you don't mean "no value" in terms of something specific?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Here, I'll show you how Jews see the verse. It says:
"And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
It says "an anointed one", not "the anointed one" or "the Messiah" (as some Christian translations prefer to use whenever they translate verses they think refer to Jesus). On this thread there have been posted links to a number of Jewish interpretations of the verse, but none of those include the belief that this verse involves the death of the one true Messiah ben David. That's simply reading in something that isn't there.

Everyone on Earth today would say that if they believe in GOD the stone quotes about changing and giving GOD the one body names for fusion/fission change, then he did. For he did not invent modern day science power plant as based on the Temple pyramid Jesus themes.

Yet they would say look how harmed and abominated life has become by the changing human mentality in self presence and self express SION, and sexual behaviour changes by the multitude of newly expressed human emotive behaviours and sexual being in relationship ideals.

Marriage of 2 natural human being parents, parents for everyone on Earth with GOD the body stone face/fusion...in the sight of GOD One is our human Nature married...to see the children changing into the Sodom and Gomorrah theme of the cities of GOD...meaning nations of Earth fusion of all jewels, EL fusion crystalline powers changing.

How it was taught as relative that when 2 fallen angels change on the ground face...then the warning signs of the angels have arrived....and then the cities of GOD will be destroyed, which are in fact the cities of look a like human cities embedded in the body of stone mountains...as I was taught look at the stone facure that looks like it has buildings embedded in the structures of mountains.

Photos of which I have posted for human evidence against their own self destruction....for we are about the timed review of living when life gets destroyed...as human reasoning to PI O and also O PHI quotes about the falling of the spirits of GOD O by gas or spirit mass removal out of above us in the Heavenly realms and below us, in gain of the removal SIN..sink holes.

As I personally do not wish my family to own this human science occult UFO cause...then have a true think about why you discuss this God science occult relativity teaching, for self idealism of why you should not support occult technologies.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
The evidence without the assumption of no supernatural events, points to a time of writing before the Temple destruction otherwise the traditional methods would not have come up with the early dates they did.
Interestingly the gospel with a traditional dating method giving a late date is the gospel that has not got the prophecy of the temple destruction.
If you want to assume the gospels are lies until archaeology shows otherwise that's your decision.
The modern methods are not necessarily more accurate and necessitate ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. The older methods actually did not assume that God was doing miracles or prophesying, they just used the evidence available in the texts and other historical documents etc. BUT the newer methods do use the assumption that prophecy is not true.
What is the internal evidence besides someone claiming such? We must avoid circular reasoning, saying that a book is true because it says it is true, otherwise we would accept anything. When it comes to ancient methods, they did not have the technology to date items and determine whether information was reliable or not, so they had to use tradition and word of mouth, which is understandable. These days we have technology and methods that can actually date items and information, which makes our methods superior.

One cannot determine whether the gospels are lies though. We can only come to most likely conclusions based on information we have. One shouldn't accept claims that people make though without evidence in this day and age, so there has to be outside evidence to show that the gospels are true. Otherwise we might as well believe anything we wish. We need a consistent standard.

You also haven't demonstrated which method is more reliable. You are just making statements about others without showing how they come to their conclusions. Please do so.

The supernatural cannot be taken into account because by definition those events would not be able to be examined as they don't follow natural processes. If we had to take the supernatural into account we would come to infinite possibilities because there is no standard to examine anything on. In addition there is no proof of miracles that can be examined, so claiming the supernatural is pointless.

Please show this evidence that you keep speaking of. And bare in mind that you cannot use the prophecies themselves, except what they say, because that would be circular reasoning.



Yes context is important in understanding scripture but Isa 9 is a Messianic prophecy and that is part of the context of the Isa 7 prophecy.
Some people might just say that Matthew was using the Septuagint which is translated "virgin" but the link between Isa 7 and Isa 9 does seem to be there imo.
It is there because you wish it to be. You are proof texting and ignoring the immediate context.


They certainly see the OT different to how I do and they translate Isa 9:6,7 in different ways to eliminate the Divine element for the child. They also change the plain understanding of the child ruling on the throne of David forever to something more in tune with their beliefs. But some Jews have seen the passage as Messianic.
OK. Please demonstrate that they intentionally changed the understanding of verses to suit their agenda?



Maybe I see that because I know some of the history. Before the Emmanuel prophecy God is saying that the Kings will not invade and conquer Judah, just trust God. Ahaz tells Isaiah that he will not ask for a sign because he had already made up his mind about asking Assyria for help. After the Emmanuel sign is given the prophecies turn to destruction and bad times for Judah because of Assyria.
Yet Isaiah 7 is about giving Ahaz hope? That doesn't seem to match what you are saying.



Traditionally the Psalm is a Psalm of David and that is written at the opening of the Psalm.
Polycrates it seems was first executed and then his body suspended/crucified as an example. The method used for crucifixion was probably not nailing the hands and feet.
Do you really want to say that the Psalm is written by someone describing a Persian crucifixion and then putting it in the Hebrew sacred poems list? Would that eliminate it as being prophetic of Jesus crucifixion?
Emphasis on "probably". And yes I do want to say that the psalmist possibly took the idea of crucifixion from a contemporary source, if that is indeed what the Psalmist was talking about. And no, that in itself would not eliminate it from being prophetic about Jesus.



What is it, someone describing a crucifixion or not about crucifixion at all?
The point is that it describes what the gospels say happened to Jesus, who is known to have been crucified. But of course for a skeptic nothing of this matters because the gospels were written to fit the OT bits and pieces taken out of context anyway. Not that I'm saying you are a skeptic, but there is a sliding scale I guess after belief and it is all sceptical of the truth of the gospels and has to explain them away in some cases.
It may be hard to read Psalm 22 and pick out necessarily a crucifixion but if one knows what happened to Jesus it would be easy to see that the Psalm is about Him.

Just a note, we are all skeptical. You are a skeptical of other religions for instance. Being a skeptic is something we should all strive to be, but skeptic and skeptical are two words meaning two different things.

I contend with you on these matters because you aren't providing explanations that demonstrate that your interpretation of things is the only way. You aren't eliminating the possibility that the gospels could have taken bits and pieces out of context. The OT texts that you are using aren't explicitly stating your conclusions and on further examination the context doesn't match. You have to rely on assumptions and eisegesis rather than exegesis to come to your conclusions, which is the reason why many OT scriptures do not come to your conclusions when examined in isolation from the NT claims. You are reading into the text that which is not obviously there.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hebrews 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That is not about a covenant, but even if it was, what about the Jews who also believe in an everlasting covenant that they are under? Logically speaking, if the Jews had an everlasting covenant the Christian covenant could not supersede it. Do you understand the problems you run into when you say a covenant is everlasting?
All of the Messengers of God made covenants with their followers
"Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. Moses made a covenant concerning the promised Christ, and announced the good news of His advent to the world. Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. The Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning the Báb, and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty, Bahá’u’lláh, and gave the glad-tidings of His coming, for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by the Báb. Bahá’u’lláh made a covenant concerning a Promised One Who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years."
Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 358

Sorry, my mistake, it was Heb 13:20

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

The Mosaic Covenant was not meant to be everlasting, it was till the coming of the New Covenant. (Jer 31:31-34 etc) It is this New Covenant which is everlasting. There was nothing in the Mosaic Covenant concerning the promised Christ Jesus even if Moses did say that a prophet like him (Moses) would come and the people should listen to him.
Adam did not bring in a Covenant. God made a Covenant'
God made a covenant with Noah that He would never again destroy all life on earth with a flood and it was an unconditional Covenant and an everlasting Covenant. (Gen 9:8-17)
God made a Covenant with Abraham to make him fertile and the father of nations and that He would give Abraham and his descendants the land of Canaan. It was a Covenant that was to endure through all of Abraham's descendants and was conditional on Abraham and his male descendants being circumcised. Ishmael was to father 12 tribal heads who would become a great nation. It was through Isaac/son of Sarah that the enduring covenant of being their God and giving them Canaan was to go through. (No doubt this is one of the sticking points between Jews and Islam which says the Jews corrupted the scriptures about this)
(See Genesis 17) There is nothing about Moses in this covenant.
Abdul got things wrong.

However, these covenants were only applicable to the followers of that religion. When that religious dispensation was abrogated they might still “believe” they are under that covenant, but according to God we are no longer operating under that covenant. However, there is an everlasting covenant all believers are under, and that is the covenant that states that God would never leave mankind alone without guidance from a Messenger.

The Bible tells us what the Covenants said and the Noahic, Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants still stand for those under them,,,,,,,,,(and all are under the Noahic covenant.
I don't know where you get your everlasting covenant from but I am telling what the Bible says and that is also what you supposedly believe.

Yes, I recall that is how you interpret that verse, but in light of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, I interpret the sheep as everyone in the world.

Yes the gentiles is everyone else in the world and these are the ones Jesus calls also since he is the one whom God would use to restore and bring back Israel and save the gentiles (Isa 49:1-6)
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I believe that the Holy Spirit was given to Jesus disciples on the day of Pentecost but I do not believe that John 14:26 and John 15:26 are referring to that event. I believe they are referring to the Holy Spirit that was sent by God when Baha’u’llah appeared.

Jesus was promising the Advocate who is the Holy Spirit in John 14:26 to His disciples of the day and saying that this Advocate would remind them of what He had told them.
John 15:26 tells us that the Advocate is the Spirit of Truth.
When read together we see that the Spirit of Truth was promised to Jesus disciples of His day and would remind them of what He would told them and would testify about Jesus.

In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have this:

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All of this happened before Baha’u’llah came, so these are prophecies that Baha’u’llah fulfilled.

Peter said that Pentecost was what the prophet Joel spoke of (Acts 2:16) and that also means that Pentecost was in the last days. It also says other things that will happen before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.
And really I don't think you could say that Baha'u'llah was responsible for events that happened a long time before he came. You could say that they happened in the lead up to the great and glorious day of the Lord.
But a meteor shower the earth going dark in one part for a day and a big earth quake are really not earth shattering things. Things like that do happen.

There are all kinds of prophecies that Baha’u’llah fulfilled and the prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled are cited in Thief in the Night by William Sears.

One or 2 would be fine, not a whole book of them.

It applies to all of Jesus’ words. Although some of those words are not pertinent to this age they are all part of the eternal religion of God, which can never be abrogated:

So Jesus words become part of the history of God's religions and Messengers when they are deemed to be abrogated because they part of the dispensation of Jesus for His dispensation only. That sort of makes the statement of Jesus about His words not passing away, irrelevant and muted.

For example?

Examples of parts of the Bible which are denied and replaced by the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha are written about in this post. Eg John 14:26, John 15:26. You deny that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit that was given at Pentecost.
Another might be John 14:3 where Jesus promises to return and Acts 1:9-11 where Baha'i denies that the same Jesus will come back in the same way the disciples saw Him go into heaven.
I could go on for a while with examples if you like.
How about Luke 1:32 where it is said that Jesus is the one to sit on the throne of David forever as in Isa 9:6-7?
How about Acts 8:26-40 where Isa 53 is shown to be a prophecy about Jesus? etc etc
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Here, I'll show you how Jews see the verse. It says:
"And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
It says "an anointed one", not "the anointed one" or "the Messiah" (as some Christian translations prefer to use whenever they translate verses they think refer to Jesus). On this thread there have been posted links to a number of Jewish interpretations of the verse, but none of those include the belief that this verse involves the death of the one true Messiah ben David. That's simply reading in something that isn't there.

In context, using modern biblical criticism, I think it originally referred to the martyrdom of Onias III during the Maccabean Revolt:


Onias III - Wikipedia


Onias III (Hebrew: חוֹנִיּוֹ‎ Ḥōniyyō), son of Simon II, was High Priest during the Second Temple period of Judaism. He is described in scriptures as a pious man who opposed the Hellenization of Judea.[1]

According to II Macc. iv. 26, Menelaus was not an Aaronite, but brother of Simon and thus also a Benjaminite. When Menelaus removed some vessels from the Temple to curry favor with the Syrian nobles of the Seleucid Empire, Onias accused him publicly and then fled to the asylum of Daphne, near Antioch, where Menelaus, aided by the royal governor Andronicus, had him secretly assassinated, in defiance of justice and of his oath. The murdered priest was deeply mourned by both Jews and Greeks, and the king also, on his return, wept for him and sentenced Andronicus to death.[4]

The passages in Daniel 8:10-11 ("casting down some of the host and stars...the prince of the host"), 9:26 ("shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself") and 11:22 ("...and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant") are generally referred to the murder of Onias.[5][6]
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Well that is evidently not true as people get a lot of wisdom out of it. I can say that from personal experience. Plus it has literary and creative value, such as the creativity in writing the book of Revelation. People learn a lot about Koine Greek from them. Are you sure you don't mean "no value" in terms of something specific?
Yes, there is something specific. I have a problem with the literal resurrection. I understand the spiritual resurrection, BUT in the nt it seems the resurection is of the flesh. In orthodox christianity at least, they thing the flesh body will rise again and they say it's written in the nt. How can I say this is value???
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

It can be considered that it is showing the progression from Jesus to Muhammad on to Baha'u'llah, as Baha'u'llah came from Assyria and can be seen as the King from Assyria.

I thus wonder if the Two Kings may tie into the Two witnessess of Revelation and be a reference to Muhammad and Ali. The Land of the two kings being Assyria (Persia)

So before the Christians reject the wrong and choose the right, we have the Revelation of Muhammad and as the book of Revelation also offers, was laid waste and a time brought upon us like no other, before Christains accept the King from Assyria.
None of these kings were good guys...
Ahaz assumed the throne of Judah at the age of 20 or 25. Sometime later his kingdom was invaded by Pekah, king of Israel, and Rezin, king of Syria, in an effort to force him into an alliance with them against the powerful state of Assyria. Acting against the counsel of the prophet Isaiah, Ahaz appealed for aid to Tiglath-pileser III, king of Assyria, to repel the invaders. Assyria defeated Syria and Israel, and Ahaz presented himself as a vassal to the Assyrian king. Not only was Judah’s political situation unimproved but Assyria exacted a heavy tribute and Assyrian gods were introduced into the Temple at Jerusalem.​
And I'm sure if the ancient Assyrian Empire can be equated with Persia. It looks, if anything, Assyria might have conquered the area.
Using Science and Reasoning, this is obviously a Spiritual Vision of the Spiritual Jesus the Christ.
What ever really happened with the alleged "resurrection" of Jesus, who knows. But the gospel writers make it clear that they claim to have seen him alive.
Acts 1:1 I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive.

Luke 24:36 Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”​

"...Thus it is recorded: "Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain."
So I take it that the "Qá'im" has revealed the other 69 meanings?
 
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