• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Brian2

Veteran Member
Again, "Jewish-based" does not make it Judaism.

No of course not, but Judaism is something that developed over the years and being a Jew (in beliefs) does not mean that you belong to Judaism.

a. there were other messianic claimants who, along with their disciples and followers, were considered non-Jewish in their ways. The most famous example of this was Shabtai Tzvi and his cult of Shabtaim and subsequently, the Frankists.
b. It all comes down to: is this guy and/or his followers calling for abolishment of Torah? Are their beliefs in line with Torah or not? Christianity isn't. Shabtaism wasn't. Frankism wasn't. Bar-Kochva, on the other hand, was backed up by some of the greatest rabbis of his generation.

I have heard that in the scriptures the Messiah is supposed to come before the temple was destroyed (Daniel 9:26) and that when the Sandedrin was dissolved by the Romans the Rabbis were dismayed because it meant to them that the Messiah should have come. (Gen 49:10)
But of course you now have different interpretation for Gen 49:10 and maybe have had a different interpretation all along for the Dan 9 passage. Yet it certainly could point to the time when the Messiah would come.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Also, with some of the "prophecies" in Matthew 2 it is possible to create the event that fulfilled the out of context prophecy. Like the killing of the kids by Herod and the trip to Egypt by Jesus and the family.

Those prophecies can be interpreted to be about Jesus when it was known that these events actually happened in Jesus life, otherwise it just lies. Knowing the typology that Israel is a type of the Messiah and knowing the prophecy surrounding the passage in Jeremiah where the children are no more. (Jer 31) could lead someone to use the passages as prophecy about Jesus.

Yes, and any religion that is going to use previous religions to justify itself, I think will do and have to do it. They all need "proof" from things prophesied to be able to say, "See they we are right there as plain as day." But it's never plain as day. Like I've asked Baha'is about that sure, they've got verses to show The Bab and Baha'u'llah were talked about in the Bible, but how about Muhammad? And they had them. As vague and out of context as can be, but they were there.

Most of the prophecies are there as plain as day, esp for someone who knows Jesus life and what Jesus said the Messiah would do according to the scriptures. Some are harder to see however even if they can be worked out. This is different to Islam and Baha'i where the Hebrew scriptures and New Testament have to be denied in part and twisted for those religions to have support in prophecy.

The things that I'm always questioning the Baha'is on is... the prophecies in Revelation that make it sound like all the trials and tribulations happen before the Return of Christ. Plus, the one from the gospels that says there will be wars and rumors of wars, but that is not yet the end. And since we still have wars and rumors of wars, how can "The Christ" have already come and gone? Of course they have a perfectly reasonable explanation, for them. Just like Christianity can say to Jews, "Jesus is going to fulfill all those other things later, when he comes back."

The OT has prophecy of the Messiah being killed and rejected by the Jews and even about a resurrection and the subsequent suffering of the Jews and the Messiah revealing Himself to the Jews at the end and their mourning because of Him.
But you are right about the Baha'is and their completely closed mind to what the Bible actually says. It's all interpretation to them even if that interpretation ends up denying what the passages say. It is a denial of and replacement of many passages in the Bible with the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The documents should be examined the same way all other documents are examined. It should stick to the standard we currently use unless the method can be improved with better technology. The assumption that a God influenced the methods is just an assumption so should be disregarded.

It should work like this:
-The examiners examine the texts using current methods without assumptions besides the evidence we have regarding previous archaeological discoveries.
- Those methods will determine when the books were written.
- If the are discovered to have existed before the prophecy was said to be fulfilled then accept it.

The evidence without the assumption of no supernatural events, points to a time of writing before the Temple destruction otherwise the traditional methods would not have come up with the early dates they did.
Interestingly the gospel with a traditional dating method giving a late date is the gospel that has not got the prophecy of the temple destruction.
If you want to assume the gospels are lies until archaeology shows otherwise that's your decision.
The modern methods are not necessarily more accurate and necessitate ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. The older methods actually did not assume that God was doing miracles or prophesying, they just used the evidence available in the texts and other historical documents etc. BUT the newer methods do use the assumption that prophecy is not true.

I do believe that the link between the whole context is there as it seems absurd to me that the writer would not be able to stick to the context. And yes, the common theme is children promised as signs for the time. Like with my study of Romans, I think that one might only be able to understand the context once one really understand the intro chapters. And maybe also studying Kings and Chronicles to pinpoint what was happening at the time Isaiah was talking about.

Yes context is important in understanding scripture but Isa 9 is a Messianic prophecy and that is part of the context of the Isa 7 prophecy.
Some people might just say that Matthew was using the Septuagint which is translated "virgin" but the link between Isa 7 and Isa 9 does seem to be there imo.

Isaiah 9:6-7 can be seen as messianic if taken out of context. We have to sort out the context first. We are also not taking Jewish prejudice into account although they have good insight into what the context is as they examine the OT more thoroughly than anybody else from what I have seen. Also to say that they are stuck in tradition is to disregard their religious beliefs. They believe that there was an oral law as well as a written one which was passed down. They see the OT different to how you do.

They certainly see the OT different to how I do and they translate Isa 9:6,7 in different ways to eliminate the Divine element for the child. They also change the plain understanding of the child ruling on the throne of David forever to something more in tune with their beliefs. But some Jews have seen the passage as Messianic.

These verses say nothing about Ahaz not trusting God.

Maybe I see that because I know some of the history. Before the Emmanuel prophecy God is saying that the Kings will not invade and conquer Judah, just trust God. Ahaz tells Isaiah that he will not ask for a sign because he had already made up his mind about asking Assyria for help. After the Emmanuel sign is given the prophecies turn to destruction and bad times for Judah because of Assyria.

Depends when one dates Psalm 22. According to tradition it is dated to 1000BC. According to secular scholarship, the first part is dated to before 587 BC and the second part to 4th C BC. If secular scholarship is correct then crucifixion would have been known to people of the time, as the oldest known reference to crucifixion dates to 522 BC when the Persians crucified Polycrates. I dunno how they come to the dating conclusion so that is as far as I will go with that.

Traditionally the Psalm is a Psalm of David and that is written at the opening of the Psalm.
Polycrates it seems was first executed and then his body suspended/crucified as an example. The method used for crucifixion was probably not nailing the hands and feet.
Do you really want to say that the Psalm is written by someone describing a Persian crucifixion and then putting it in the Hebrew sacred poems list? Would that eliminate it as being prophetic of Jesus crucifixion?

Reading Psalms 22 though doesn't give the reader the idea of someone being crucified unless one reads into it, as it mentions nothing about wooden cross being erected and a person being placed on one, which is a vital element.

What is it, someone describing a crucifixion or not about crucifixion at all?
The point is that it describes what the gospels say happened to Jesus, who is known to have been crucified. But of course for a skeptic nothing of this matters because the gospels were written to fit the OT bits and pieces taken out of context anyway. Not that I'm saying you are a skeptic, but there is a sliding scale I guess after belief and it is all sceptical of the truth of the gospels and has to explain them away in some cases.
It may be hard to read Psalm 22 and pick out necessarily a crucifixion but if one knows what happened to Jesus it would be easy to see that the Psalm is about Him.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It is not a fact. That is your opinion.

A fact is founded upon Truth and as such Baha'u'llah does or does not fulfill prophecy.

Your opinion is that He does not.

My opinion is that He does so, 100%

One of us logically then does not base their opinion in Truth and I can say I would give my life for my choice at any moment.

Regards Tony

You sound like someone who is reasonable and logical. Are these statements/prophecies in the Bible true?

John 14:2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Acts 1:9Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Luke 1:30 “Do not be afraid Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

Isa 9:6-7 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the ILORD of hosts will perform this.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot believe in a religion that teaches that 67% of people are not saved and then say God does not disregard them. It just doesn’t comport with logic.
So what is God going to DO with all those people on Judgment Day?

It seems to me that God is going to do to each as He sees fit. IMO some will be saved and others not.

Baha’is do not have a concept of salvation they way Christians do because we do not believe in original sin. However, we have what we all our “twin duties” towards God, and if we fulfill these duties we will have done what God wants us to do and that will put us in the best position to “get to heaven” as it is termed.

Is the idea that Adam did cannot have sinned as a Messenger in Baha'i or does it also mean that you don't think that humanity is punished for the sin of one man. I also do not believe we humans are punished for the sin of one man. Each of us is judged on what each of us has done. I also believe in God's mercy, as Shoghi Effendi said.

To get the guarantee, you need both faith in Baha’u’llah and good deeds, but I do not think that means that only Baha’is will be in heaven... That would not be justice and it would not make sense, since there was a time before Baha’u’llah came when people who were near to God died, so I think they will be in heaven.

Does that mean that the death of Jesus to take on Himself what is due for our sins was meaningless, and that He did not really have to go through that?
Are your good deeds a means of earning the right to be in heaven do you think?

Of course, it is a requirement that Baha’is believe in Jesus, so we have our bases covered. :D

Maybe not with a different Jesus and a different gospel message,,,,,,,,,,,,,and not if the other Messengers dispensation is abrogated as you said.

That is because some parts on the old model wore out because they were not everlasting. ;)
All religions wear out eventually, and then they need to be renewed.

As I said the covenant of Jesus is everlasting (Heb 13:21) That covenant includes the promise of the Holy Spirit. That means that no other Messenger is needed, since we have the guidance of God already.

The fact that Baha’u’llah came to fulfill and complete the work Jesus left unfinished does not take any glory away from Jesus.

What work was left unfinished by Jesus except the OT promises of what the Messiah would do?

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
That verse above is about the unity of mankind but it is also about the eventual unity of all the religions into one common faith, which God has ordained as the remedy for healing mankind:

I see the other sheep as the gentiles.
Do the following verses show that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit and is the Spirit of Truth?
Is John 14:26 a promise to Jesus disciples that the Holy Spirit will remind them of all Jesus said to them?
Do you think that the Advocate/Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth was given to Jesus disciples on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2)

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

John 15:26 When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father— the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father— He will testify about Me.

No, just because the Baha’i Faith fulfils the prophecies of the past religions, that does not mean it depends upon them.

What is a prophecy that Baha'u'llah and/or the Baha'i faith has fulfilled?

We do not deny the Bible, we just interpret it differently than Christians, but since Christians interpret it differently that means that logically speaking, there is no one correct interpretation. But we have already covered all this before.

Logically speaking it could mean that one interpretation is wrong.

Yes, Baha’is believe that the Bible dispensation has been abrogated so we believe that the Bible teachings have been replaced by the teachings of Baha’u’llah. That applies to the social teachings and laws and the message of the unity of mankind, but it does not apply to the spiritual teachings. The spiritual teachings in the Bible are eternal will always be pertinent.

Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”

Does that apply to all of Jesus words...........as it seems to since it was not qualified in any way?

When I said "Baha'i (or at least the ones I have spoken to) deny much of the Bible and replace it with the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha." I meant that what is written in the Bible in places is denied and replaced with what Baha'u'llah et al said about the Bible teaching..................thus making the Bible wrong in what it tells us.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Most of the prophecies are there as plain as day, esp for someone who knows Jesus life and what Jesus said the Messiah would do according to the scriptures. Some are harder to see however even if they can be worked out. This is different to Islam and Baha'i where the Hebrew scriptures and New Testament have to be denied in part and twisted for those religions to have support in prophecy.
It would be nice if they were plain as day.

Isaiah 9:2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.
3 You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as warriors rejoice when dividing the plunder.
4 For as in the day of Midian’s defeat, you have shattered the yoke that burdens them, the bar across their shoulders, the rod of their oppressor.
5 Every warrior’s boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire.
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Christians and Baha'is claim this. Christians say that when Jesus comes back, he will rule. Baha'is say their prophet has set up "God's" governmental system. I wonder how Jews interpret it?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”
Once we move away from verse 14, it has nothing to do with Jesus. There seems to always have to be at least a little "twisting" for even Christians to make some of these "prophecies" work.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Is the idea that Adam did cannot have sinned as a Messenger in Baha'i or does it also mean that you don't think that humanity is punished for the sin of one man. I also do not believe we humans are punished for the sin of one man. Each of us is judged on what each of us has done.
From what I remember of the teachings of the Christians I was with... Adam's sin was important to give a reason why all people needed Jesus... only he could pay the penalty for that sin and all sins. From what I remember is that they taught we have inherited a "sin nature" which is different than "original sin". The Law was put in place to show people that they cannot ever be perfect enough to "save" themselves. which Christians usually say that we can't get to heaven on our own good works. Then Christians make it very plain that if a person doesn't accept the free gift of salvation by believing in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, then God has no alternative but to send them to hell... no matter how good or bad they were. Believers also get judged, but it was more for rewards, which I guess would be like getting a bonus for doing a good job.

Baha'is, and that means God too, change it back to an individual having to do good works. And really, since Baha'is believe everybody moves on to another spiritual plain, salvation becomes meaningless... there is no heaven and hell as taught in Christianity. I'm pretty sure that Baha'i don't believe people are born with a sin nature... something about "noble I created thee, why debase yourself."

Way different beliefs and concepts. As you say, Baha'is have to change a lot of things in the Bible and the NT. To me, it would have been a lot simpler just to say that all of it was wrong and start over, but they have to make it all tie together and make sense. But, then again, that is so similar to what Christians did to Judaism. The Law? No, it was just our tutor. The serpent, the Prince and King of Tyre, the morning star or "Lucifer"? All those and more get worked in to show how Satan, the devil, was everywhere in the Bible. By the time Christianity gets finished with Judaism, there is nothing left that is worth believing and following. A "believing" Jew should become a follower of Jesus and become a "Completed" Jew. Same kind a stuff Baha'is are telling Christians. Most everything Christians believe is wrong and if they really knew Jesus, they would have recognized Baha'u'llah and followed him.

But it's all too vague and way more complicated than that to be that simple. And then, for Baha'is, they have to tie in Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism into the mix too? At least that part of it is easy for Christians... all of them are false.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
and being a Jew (in beliefs) does not mean that you belong to Judaism.
What is a "Jew in beliefs" who doesn't belong to Judaism?
I have heard that in the scriptures the Messiah is supposed to come before the temple was destroyed
You heard wrong. Sorry.

Edit: by the way, happy birthday!
 
Last edited:

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does that mean that the death of Jesus to take on Himself what is due for our sins was meaningless, and that He did not really have to go through that?
Are your good deeds a means of earning the right to be in heaven do you think?

I see it gives our lives meaning, it gives us the path to be born again from flesh into our spiritual selves. Jesus chose that path to show us what we can be in spirit and know that Christ always lives within us and we bring Christ out by living a selfless deed filled life, in service to each other.

Baha'u'llah put it this way, (note, I put in bold where I see it is inclusive of Jesus the Christ and all past Messengers)

"The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities!"

The sacrafice of Jesus the Christ is eternal and our path to salvation, it will never be outdated.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As I said the covenant of Jesus is everlasting (Heb 13:21) That covenant includes the promise of the Holy Spirit. That means that no other Messenger is needed, since we have the guidance of God already.

That position is also that of the Jew and the Muslim. It is all in the way the Covenant is read and our personal humility. I see the major covenant is that God will send the Messengers and our first part to play is not to reject them.

Stand up anyone that thinks they are guided by the Holy Spirit given by a God. Those that do, face the tests given by scripture and pass or fail.

I see if we are not a Prophet, we are born again in knowledge and acceptance of One that had been given a Message from God and to us they are the Self of God amongst us in Attributes, not Essence.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It would be nice if they were plain as day.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”
Once we move away from verse 14, it has nothing to do with Jesus. There seems to always have to be at least a little "twisting" for even Christians to make some of these "prophecies" work.

It can be considered that it is showing the progression from Jesus to Muhammad on to Baha'u'llah, as Baha'u'llah came from Assyria and can be seen as the King from Assyria.

I thus wonder if the Two Kings may tie into the Two witnessess of Revelation and be a reference to Muhammad and Ali. The Land of the two kings being Assyria (Persia)

So before the Christians reject the wrong and choose the right, we have the Revelation of Muhammad and as the book of Revelation also offers, was laid waste and a time brought upon us like no other, before Christains accept the King from Assyria.

That's my view of it. @Brian2

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You sound like someone who is reasonable and logical. Are these statements/prophecies in the Bible true?

I note that you like to apply reason and logic to you replies. I will give my view on them using my thoughts on what was offered by Baha'u'llah.

The fist Logic I use here is that the aim of the Bible, or the 'Word of God', is for it to be a Spiritual Lesson and not meant to be a history Lesson.

Baha'u'llah has said Science and Reason must be used when we Look at what has been offered in the past. As the Spiritual word is imparting spiritual truths, what the Word of God is saying in the material outward form, contains many a hidden mystery in the internal meanings. Baha'u'llah quotes past traditions on this theme;

"...Thus it is recorded: "Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth." He also saith: "We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)

Love's a stranger to earth and heaven too;
In him are lunacies seventy-and-two. [Rumi]
(cited in Baha'u'llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 10)

John 14:2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

I see this is reference to all the Messengers of God, I see the Rooms of Jesus, Krishna, of Zoroaster, of Abraham, of Adam, of Muhammad. Jesus the Son, Christ, has come back as the 'Father', Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), to show us how we are One People and our Faiths with all the Names of God in the Many rooms, are but from the One same Source, the Builder of the Rooms.

Acts 1:9Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Using Science and Reasoning, this is obviously a Spiritual Vision of the Spiritual Jesus the Christ. May people have such visions, personally I have only woken from dreams like this, not a vision while awake. But the gift of a vision of the world beyond is given by God to many people, which is meant for them. I know many people that have had such visions of the Bab. Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha and they are now recorded in history as well. Abdul'baha, the Son of Baha'u'llah is not a Messenger, but was given by His Father as a perfect example for us to live by, many thought his station higher and to a young child that did not know any better, here is a story from the early 1900's about a mother, a Christain and her daughter;

" At home her little daughter had asked her what she would do should the Lord Jesus return to the world. She would rush to seek Him, she had said, only to be told [by her child] that "Lord Jesus was here!" [the girl's finger was on France on a globe they had in their living room]. How did she know, the mother had inquired. The child reported that the Lord Jesus had told her Himself. Some days later the mother was reproached for not doing what she had said she would do [i.e. travel to France to see Him]. Twice the Lord Jesus had told her that He was here, the little girl insisted. But she did not know where to look, the mother told her child. That afternoon, on a walk, the little girl suddenly stopped and, excited and ecstatic, pointed to a kiosk where magazines were displayed. Prominent there was the photograph of 'Abdu'l-Bahá. "There, there!" the child shouted, was the Lord Jesus. The magazine which contained the photograph of 'Abdu'l-Bahá [a French magazine] led the way to Paris, and the American lady, taking the first available boat to cross the Atlantic, sailed that very night." (Balyuzi, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p.109)

Luke 1:30 “Do not be afraid Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

Amen to that, Jesus the Christ Message lives on in the Heart of a Baha'i. It should have also been exalted during the time of Muhammad, but the Bible tells us why that did not happen quite clearly in Revelation.

Isa 9:6-7 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the ILORD of hosts will perform this.

This one is a great challenge for all Christians, as IMHO, The Lord of Hosts is Baha'u'llah. The Message given, the Baha'i Faith that has sprung from that Message is the embodiment of that prophecy and the Faith offers itself as the fulfillment of that prophecy. Baha'u'llah has given us the Administrative Order, the means thereby to build Gods Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven.

I wish you happy and well and thank you for the discussion.

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It seems to me that God is going to do to each as He sees fit. IMO some will be saved and others not.
But of course, because God doeth whatsoever He willeth, according to Baha’u’llah.

The hundred-dollar question is: Saved from what?
Is the idea that Adam did cannot have sinned as a Messenger in Baha'i or does it also mean that you don't think that humanity is punished for the sin of one man. I also do not believe we humans are punished for the sin of one man. Each of us is judged on what each of us has done. I also believe in God's mercy, as Shoghi Effendi said.

Well, I am glad to hear that. :)
Does that mean that the death of Jesus to take on Himself what is due for our sins was meaningless, and that He did not really have to go through that?
No, it does not mean that the death of Jesus on the cross was meaningless. In fact, here is what I just posted to Hockeycowboy this morning:

Hockeycowboy said: Please read Matthew 20:28

I said:

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

It is also a Baha’i belief that Jesus offered Himself up as a ransom for many.

“That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 75-76

The question is what was the payment for? Jesus did not say that He gave His life as a ransom for any original sin committed by Adam and Eve. Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus besought God to confer upon Him the honor of sacrificing Himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

********************************************************

So I believe what Baha’u’llah wrote, that Jesus sacrificed Himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.
Are your good deeds a means of earning the right to be in heaven do you think?
I believe deeds are important, but faith is also important. Below is what Bahaulah wrote about that:

“The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 170

Below is what the Bab wrote about deeds vs. faith, indicating that deeds are secondary to faith.

“Wert thou to open the heart of a single soul by helping him to embrace the Cause of Him Whom God shall make manifest, thine inmost being would be filled with the inspirations of that august Name. It devolveth upon you, therefore, to perform this task in the Days of Resurrection, inasmuch as most people are helpless, and wert thou to open their hearts and dispel their doubts, they would gain admittance into the Faith of God. Therefore, manifest thou this attribute to the utmost of thine ability in the days of Him Whom God shall make manifest. For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133


I believe this is congruent with what Jesus taught about how we attain eternal life, by believing in Him, which means having faith in Him.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”


However, Jesus also said:

Matthew 25:41-46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Maybe not with a different Jesus and a different gospel message,,,,,,,,,,,,,and not if the other Messengers dispensation is abrogated as you said.
There is only one Jesus and one gospel message; Baha’is just differ from Christians in how they interpret the gospel message or should I rather say what we differ on is what we consider to be the most important part of the gospel message.

It does not matter if the Dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. That does not mean we do not have to accept what was revealed previously. We have to accept everything Jesus and all the other Manifestations of God taught and we have to believe what their Missions were if we are to be true to the Unity of God:

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

(Continued on next post)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As I said the covenant of Jesus is everlasting (Heb 13:21) That covenant includes the promise of the Holy Spirit. That means that no other Messenger is needed, since we have the guidance of God already.

Hebrews 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That is not about a covenant, but even if it was, what about the Jews who also believe in an everlasting covenant that they are under? Logically speaking, if the Jews had an everlasting covenant the Christian covenant could not supersede it. Do you understand the problems you run into when you say a covenant is everlasting?

All of the Messengers of God made covenants with their followers

"Abraham, on Him be peace, made a covenant concerning Moses and gave the glad-tidings of His coming. Moses made a covenant concerning the promised Christ, and announced the good news of His advent to the world. Christ made a covenant concerning the Paraclete and gave the tidings of His coming. The Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning the Báb, and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of His coming. The Báb made a Covenant concerning the Blessed Beauty, Bahá’u’lláh, and gave the glad-tidings of His coming, for the Blessed Beauty was the One promised by the Báb. Bahá’u’lláh made a covenant concerning a Promised One Who will become manifest after one thousand or thousands of years."
Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 358

However, these covenants were only applicable to the followers of that religion. When that religious dispensation was abrogated they might still “believe” they are under that covenant, but according to God we are no longer operating under that covenant. However, there is an everlasting covenant all believers are under, and that is the covenant that states that God would never leave mankind alone without guidance from a Messenger.
What work was left unfinished by Jesus except the OT promises of what the Messiah would do?
That is what was left unfinished, the OT promises of what the Messiah would do.
I see the other sheep as the gentiles.
Yes, I recall that is how you interpret that verse, but in light of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, I interpret the sheep as everyone in the world.
Do the following verses show that the Advocate is the Holy Spirit and is the Spirit of Truth?
Is John 14:26 a promise to Jesus disciples that the Holy Spirit will remind them of all Jesus said to them?
Do you think that the Advocate/Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth was given to Jesus disciples on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2)

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

John 15:26 When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father— the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father— He will testify about Me.

I believe that the Holy Spirit was given to Jesus disciples on the day of Pentecost but I do not believe that John 14:26 and John 15:26 are referring to that event. I believe they are referring to the Holy Spirit that was sent by God when Baha’u’llah appeared.

Acts 2:2-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have this:

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All of this happened before Baha’u’llah came, so these are prophecies that Baha’u’llah fulfilled.

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
What is a prophecy that Baha'u'llah and/or the Baha'i faith has fulfilled?
There are all kinds of prophecies that Baha’u’llah fulfilled and the prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled are cited in Thief in the Night by William Sears.
Logically speaking it could mean that one interpretation is wrong.

Or it could mean that more than one interpretation is wrong or it could mean that more than one interpretation of right.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175
Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”

Does that apply to all of Jesus words...........as it seems to since it was not qualified in any way?
It applies to all of Jesus’ words. Although some of those words are not pertinent to this age they are all part of the eternal religion of God, which can never be abrogated:

Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth
When I said "Baha'i (or at least the ones I have spoken to) deny much of the Bible and replace it with the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha." I meant that what is written in the Bible in places is denied and replaced with what Baha'u'llah et al said about the Bible teaching..................thus making the Bible wrong in what it tells us.
For example?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
No turn around. God knew that Isaiah would be a prophet while he was in the womb but he was not called then, he was called as it says in Isa 6. The one in Isa 49 was called in the womb.
In Isaiah 6 he is not called. God is called by the angels. Isaiah is sent. Different verb. His calling (using the same verb as is used for how the angels called God in 6) is from the womb in 49. q-r-a vs. sh-l-ch. Thinking of both chapters as "calling" causes confusion.

As I said Isaiah is not mentioned in the text and neither Isaiah nor the nation are supposed to restore Israel or save anyone, it is the Messiah who does this. To change the text to read something you want it to say just because you have an idea (as Ebn Ezra does in post 458) is not a good thing to do.
So you deny that the first person speaker in the book of Isaiah is Isaiah. OK. I wonder where you see the messiah named in chapter 49. If your objection is that Isaiah is not "named" then isn't it specious to insert another character who is likewise not named (and not referred to)? To do that just because you have a need to justify your beliefs doesn't make sense. I mean, it makes sense in that you have to, but not textually.


Yes it is her descendants if you insist on a plural even though there is a singular pronoun. Sounds like it could be singular or plural. But who has crushed satan's head or even bruised it? Who is without sin? Who took away the power satan had to kill by being disobedient to what God had forbidden?
Whoa there big fella -- where does it mention Satan? Show me in the text of Genesis. It is talking about a snake. And where does the curse on Eve say anything about being without sin? You are mixing things up and getting lost.


The New Covenant replaced following a set of rules with being guided by the Spirit and the Word of God and loving God and others as something, that if you did it meant that you fulfilled the requirements of the Law.
Well, this brings up two other logical errors (the idea of replacing an eternal law that, by its own testimony, won't be outmoded, and the idea that one can "fulfill" a requirement by not following it anymore and instead doing something else) but those aren't the subject of this discussion.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It would be nice if they were plain as day.

Isaiah 9:2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.
3 You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as warriors rejoice when dividing the plunder.
4 For as in the day of Midian’s defeat, you have shattered the yoke that burdens them, the bar across their shoulders, the rod of their oppressor.
5 Every warrior’s boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire.
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. Christians and Baha'is claim this. Christians say that when Jesus comes back, he will rule. Baha'is say their prophet has set up "God's" governmental system. I wonder how Jews interpret it?​


Don't forget verse 1 where the area where Jesus grew up and lived is the area to be honoured and to see a great light.

Isa 9:1Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those in distress. In the past He humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future He will honor the Way to the Sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles:

And don't forget Luke 1:32,33
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.
Which is what Isa 9:7 also tells us of the person in that passage.
Some Jews have seen it as a Messianic passage and there are other interpretations according to the immediate context of when it was written (eg that the child was King Hezekiah) and not doubt other interpretations.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.
17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”
Once we move away from verse 14, it has nothing to do with Jesus. There seems to always have to be at least a little "twisting" for even Christians to make some of these "prophecies" work.

Some times it seems like twisting but with a bit of thought it can be seen that the passage can have a Messianic meaning or some meaning outside it's immediate context. In this case (Isa 7:14) I think I see a connection between Isa 7:14 and the child of Isa 9 who is a Divine messiah and so should have God as His Father and a virgin mother.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
From what I remember of the teachings of the Christians I was with... Adam's sin was important to give a reason why all people needed Jesus... only he could pay the penalty for that sin and all sins. From what I remember is that they taught we have inherited a "sin nature" which is different than "original sin". The Law was put in place to show people that they cannot ever be perfect enough to "save" themselves. which Christians usually say that we can't get to heaven on our own good works. Then Christians make it very plain that if a person doesn't accept the free gift of salvation by believing in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, then God has no alternative but to send them to hell... no matter how good or bad they were. Believers also get judged, but it was more for rewards, which I guess would be like getting a bonus for doing a good job.

It does sound logical that if we are inherently sinners and cannot help but sin, that we also cannot be saved through our own efforts and boast of our own goodness to God at the judgement. Nevertheless Jesus salvation applied to people is an act of grace on God's part and God can extent that grace to whomsoever He want to including people who have not believed in Jesus. So I don't think that only Christians will be saved and all others will be sent to eternal torment. Then again I'm not a universalist.

Baha'is, and that means God too, change it back to an individual having to do good works. And really, since Baha'is believe everybody moves on to another spiritual plain, salvation becomes meaningless... there is no heaven and hell as taught in Christianity. I'm pretty sure that Baha'i don't believe people are born with a sin nature... something about "noble I created thee, why debase yourself."

I'm pretty sure Baha'is believe in a lower nature in humans and they do not believe in a literal Satan but symbolise Satan and say he is this lower nature in us.
There is obeying the Messenger and being good enough in Baha'i as opposed to salvation being by the grace of God as in Christianity.
But I guess the concept of salvation is probably different to a Biblical one, which really is "eternal life" on the one hand and "death" on the other. Exactly what these terms mean is vague to people like me but there are others who are sure of what tjhey mean even if they disagree with each other.

Way different beliefs and concepts. As you say, Baha'is have to change a lot of things in the Bible and the NT. To me, it would have been a lot simpler just to say that all of it was wrong and start over, but they have to make it all tie together and make sense. But, then again, that is so similar to what Christians did to Judaism. The Law? No, it was just our tutor. The serpent, the Prince and King of Tyre, the morning star or "Lucifer"? All those and more get worked in to show how Satan, the devil, was everywhere in the Bible. By the time Christianity gets finished with Judaism, there is nothing left that is worth believing and following. A "believing" Jew should become a follower of Jesus and become a "Completed" Jew. Same kind a stuff Baha'is are telling Christians. Most everything Christians believe is wrong and if they really knew Jesus, they would have recognized Baha'u'llah and followed him.

Yes Baha'i seems to want to make you feel spiritually inferior for not accepting Baha'u'llah but really when it come to fulfilling prophecy that is where Baha'u'llah really falls on his face imo. Jesus otoh comes through with flying colours imo apart from some prophecies where it can be hard to see why it was applied to Jesus. But I am biased of course.
When it comes to the Law, Jesus brought the New Covenant with God's law in our heart and mind and with God's Spirit in us to guide us. This New Covenant is what God promised in the OT to replace the Mosaic Covenant. But of course Jews see the new one something like everyone will know the 613 commands of Judaism and not need Rabbi to sort it out, so they keep the Mosaic law there and in Christianity it is "love" which is seen to fulfil the Law.
Another big obstacle is the Divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit even if the OT teaches the Messiah is the Son of God and as Isa 9 says, He is Mighty God. God is One (Deut 6:4) should be no obstacle because that "one" can be a compound one, as in Genesis where it says about the man and wife that they would become "one" flesh.

But it's all too vague and way more complicated than that to be that simple. And then, for Baha'is, they have to tie in Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism into the mix too? At least that part of it is easy for Christians... all of them are false.

It is probably easy for Baha'is also since all of them are false when they disagree with Baha'u'llah. The religions have been corrupted by man and Baha'u'llah is there to correct it all.
But really I don't think the other religions would have been corrupted that much and Baha'i really seems to make God look like a serial liar and that nobody can really know what the absolute truth is since the truth keeps being changed with each new Messenger.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
2012 END of time was not met, so the prophecy is not fulfilled.

Probability and agreement was the basis of the written document that said so never give God the ONE stone body a name ever again. Which for a scientist means, so never believe you know stone fusion and never idealise scientific worded symbolism about it.

Yet you did and named it nuclear fission and built nuclear power plants.

What you agreed you never would re implement conversion of GOD the ONE body.

Hence you re aligned Earth O God in spatial movement to come to places of cold radiation once held fusion of the body O GOD as the planet owner......into spatial irradiation attack. And then the planet O got attacked, which was natural disaster activation.

What you always knew, the END of Earth destruction was a scientific cosmological model that said the spatial cosmological body would cool and allow Earth God travel to be owner of cold instead of irradiated abomination.

Instead all claims of the abominated human spirit expressions...SION being that claim have increased their self destructive human behaviours....as you are currently witnessing with the sciences becoming in conscious behaviours more and more self aware and advised of how to destroy us all.

Seeing the science self is dispossessed of his own mind having replaced it with AI machine owned science interference, feed back.

Humans always owned in the image of GOD, man/male self spiritual advice against his own science practices.....who told him in the beginning not to do it...for science was 100 per cent totally advised and told self not to do it. Why the science psyche today owns males who believe in causing it, to males who argue against it....as those who proclaim but I am God informed as compared to you Destroyer science self.

As a human reality of the history of meaning of self teaching and self man/human self advice.

All information that he discusses as Genetics is owned historically by a male living, his own o small cellular body owned by the amount of mass bio life he lives as.....replacing its own bio body form constantly....and it is atmospheric spiritual gas recorded as natural self bio advice. Then he allows his machine DATA, fake answers to all of his own questions over ride common human sense.

As if he lives displaced from even being a human and pretending self is a God...and the Creator of everything, when the information affecting his male science bio psyche is all owned by his own lived life history. Just as a human.

He might discuss the relative advice of studying other objects.....but his consciousness and his own bio history realization o small cell was always just owned by his own self.....why he is lying to his self today via man consciousness.
 
Top