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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I have to disagree because of the urgency that is emphasized.

If you look at the teachings of the apostles you will see that they always preached with a sense of urgency....why? Because no one knew when Christ was coming back.....it could have been at any time, which is why they needed to keep that sense of urgency. (Luke 21:34-36; 2 Timothy 4:2) No one knew that it would be 2000 years into the future...and it didn't matter. No one had any longer than their own lifetime to wait for Christ's return. Their sleeping in the grave means that when the resurrection takes place, it will be like they closed their eyes only a moment ago. Two weeks or two thousand years, would make no difference.

Jehovah's Witnesses act like they know the hour or the day using the "last generation" as a marker. But they are always wrong like in 1975 and other years.

We act like the apostles in taking the good news out to the people but we stress that we do not know "the day or the hour" and we have never done that.....but keeping on the watch meant keeping awake, not going to sleep spiritually and being caught unawares.

Most religions know about Jesus' prophecy of the last days but they also know that we don't know the hour or the day so they don't put a marker like, "Last Generation".
Our hope served as an anchor for our faith. Being aware of the signs of the times has kept us from nodding off. It has kept us busy in the work Jesus assigned his disciples for over 100 years. We have identified the "faithful slave" that Christ appointed, and have fed at his table. (Matthew 24:45) This slave is a composite body as was demonstrated in the first century.....no one man ever dictated beliefs out of his own interpretation....it was always a body of men who were all in agreement and guided by God's spirit.

I believe you are wrong. JW teach that we will die if we don't convert.

Actually we don't teach that at all. God does not read labels, he reads hearts. Conversion does not mean becoming a label wearer...it means becoming a footstep follower of Jesus Christ.
Being a footstep follower of Jesus Christ means that we teach what he taught and believe what he believed and do what he did in teaching others.

It leaves out teachings that come from man-made traditions and adoptions from false worship.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” (ESV)

If we want to be accepted as God's "sons and daughters", then we cannot be found among those who teach false doctrines, celebrate pagan festivals which originally honored false gods, or who fail to do the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Going back and forth on teachings and manipulating the scripture to support their own theology. They are not inspired and infallible to do such things. They change scriptures but suppose they are wrong??

Please present examples of what you are saying here...because at no time have we claimed to be inired prophets or infallible.
According to Proverbs 4:18, we can expect the light on our path to get brighter....if there is no brightening of that light, then we are getting no enlightenment. Revelation of truth is progressive and always has been. Christendom has not altered her doctrines for many centuries, so where is the light getting brighter for them?

Where in the bible does it say that Jesus is Michael?

I have already explained why we believe that Jesus is Michael in a different role. It is not a doctrine, but a belief based on what the scriptures tell us about both of them. It does not matter in the big picture because in any case, Jesus never once claimed to be God nor did he ever teach anything from his own originality. He ascribed all his teachings as coming from his Father whom he himself worshiped both in heaven and on earth. He continued to acknowledge his Father as his God even after his return to heaven. (Revelation 3:12)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You completely avoided the question at #229. I'll ask it again here with more details:

It seems like the Wt bible mistranslates Heb 1:8, a quotation from Psalms 45. Why did they do this? Was it to support their theology? They are not inspired nor infallible.

While searching the WT library, I also found this:

"The Governing Body consists of a group of anointed Christian men . . . They are not inspired by God and hence are not infallible, but they rely on God’s infallible Word as the highest authority on earth. . . "
je pp. 26-27 - Doing God’s Will (je)


If they rely on God’s infallible Word as the highest authority on earth, why do they change the bible scriptures especially since they are not inspired by God??
Today I looked at a couple of Bibles in a store, different translations. In some parts, very different, to the point one would be misled. I'll go into Hebrews 1:8 when I have more time. If you look also at Galatians, you will see that there were serious differences within the congregation there, and Paul certainly was not real happy with Peter. Who was right? Did Paul's admonition straighten the problem out? The letter certainly was preserved for our edification.
OK, I started doing a little research, and so I will ask you to look at Hebrews 1:9 for starters, which details Hebrews 1:8.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Where in the bible does it say that Jesus is Michael?
Well, you might as well ask, where in the Bible does it say God is three persons, each and all God, each and all without having been created, just all there without a beginning. And equal. After that, you might ask yourself if Jesus was ever given greater responsibility by -- his Father. There is more reason for me to believe that the one spoken of as Michael is none other than Jesus Christ as a spirit person.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't think that's a good argument. You never have seen any of those scary movies where the monster turns into liquid or gas and goes through a keyhole to the other side then turns back into a body?
(Huh?)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's difficult to prove the Trinity using the scripture in one sitting. If it was me, I would have focused on Jesus being called God in the scriptures such as:

  • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  • John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
  • Isaiah 9:6 "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"
  • Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Paul calls Jesus God and Savior
  • Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Peter calls Jesus God, Lord, and Savior
  • 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained the faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
  • 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
These don't prove the Trinity but it's a start.
"In the beginning" should give one a clue before I even get into the Greek or what the word God means.
Yes, Thomas called Jesus his God, I have no problem with that because Thomas was impetuous, and finally realized Jesus as being a greater one, with power from the God of Jesus.
Remember this when Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me." (Matthew 28:18) I conclude from this that (1) Jesus had been GIVEN authority; (2) that he is now more powerful than ever since all authority in heaven and on earth had been GIVEN to him. He did not attempt to seize authority. He did not try to grab authority. It -- was -- given to him.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
"In the beginning" should give one a clue before I even get into the Greek or what the word God means.
Yes, Thomas called Jesus his God, I have no problem with that because Thomas was impetuous, and finally realized Jesus as being a greater one, with power from the God of Jesus.
Remember this when Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me." (Matthew 28:18) I conclude from this that (1) Jesus had been GIVEN authority; (2) that he is now more powerful than ever since all authority in heaven and on earth had been GIVEN to him. He did not attempt to seize authority. He did not try to grab authority. It -- was -- given to him.

So you are saying that Jesus was "Given" the authority which he did not have earlier? Thats not the Athanasian trinity. Its conflicting.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@SLPCCC , re: Hebrews 1:8, don’t forget the next verse. (Context.) Hebrews 1:9.

Now ask yourself: if Jesus is THE God, why would he need God to ‘anoint him with oil’? However, if Jesus is ‘mighty god’ (= a very powerful one), then he would need THE God’s - Yahweh’s - support and approval.

In fact, read the entire beginning of Hebrews 1....Jesus is “the exact representation” of God; he “inherited” a name; “he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in the heavens”.

Jesus isn’t the Majesty, is he? Can you be open enough to recognize that?

Furthermore, a “representation” is not the real item, is it?

Jesus is powerful, there’s no doubt! He was willing to be our Savior; he is our High Priest; he is our King. But God gave him those positions!
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
It's difficult to prove the Trinity using the scripture in one sitting. If it was me, I would have focused on Jesus being called God in the scriptures such as:

  • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  • John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
  • Isaiah 9:6 "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"
  • Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Paul calls Jesus God and Savior
  • Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Peter calls Jesus God, Lord, and Savior
  • 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained the faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
  • 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
These don't prove the Trinity but it's a start.
"God" (Elohim) in Bible is not used only for (the Supreme) God.

See here:
Strong's Hebrew: 430. אֱלֹהִים (elohim) -- God, god
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
"God" (Elohim) in Bible is not used only for (the Supreme) God.

See here:
Strong's Hebrew: 430. אֱלֹהִים (elohim) -- God, god

Elohim is used just like the word God in English. You can say your God, my God, false God etc. His God is false, worship me because I am the true God is a sentence and it makes sense so just because you use the word "God" twice in it doesn't mean its the same God.

Moses was sent as a God to pharaoh. Doesn't mean he was God supreme, same word Elohim. Yes brother, you are right.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
In English we usually use a capital letter/lowercase at the beginning to distinguish the meaning - - > God/god.

Besides Elohim is originally in plural - a title for many beings.

When you say in English "We", who do you mean?

Elohim is plural, yet doesn't mean "many beings" if that's what you mean to say, and I can't understand the relevance of that sentence unless I just didn't understand you. Elohim is not used to talk about other peoples gods just because its plural. Its just a generic word like God. So you can use it in a sentence. Being plural has no bearing. It will be the same if you use El which is the singular.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
If you look at the teachings of the apostles you will see that they always preached with a sense of urgency....why? Because no one knew when Christ was coming back.....it could have been at any time, which is why they needed to keep that sense of urgency. (Luke 21:34-36; 2 Timothy 4:2) No one knew that it would be 2000 years into the future...and it didn't matter. No one had any longer than their own lifetime to wait for Christ's return. Their sleeping in the grave means that when the resurrection takes place, it will be like they closed their eyes only a moment ago. Two weeks or two thousand years, would make no difference.

First, the urgency that was done back then was inspired by God and was infallible. The WT/JW.org is not inspired and is fallible. I found an article that states, “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired. . .” Watchtower February 15, 1981, page 19. You can’t compare yourselves to the apostles. The apostles were inspired; the WT is not inspired and is capable of having and making many mistakes.

Also, the Apostles didn't give dates the WT has. I found in one of your articles where the WT admit that they have been wrong about giving dates saying, “Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect.” Awake March 22, 1993 pp. 3-4

Second, the WT is mostly preaching about Jehovah and his name as though God is in heaven wanting everyone to know His name is Jehovah. Can you give just one scripture where Jesus specifically told His disciples to tell everyone about the name of Jehovah?

We act like the apostles in taking the good news out to the people but we stress that we do not know "the day or the hour" and we have never done that.....but keeping on the watch meant keeping awake, not going to sleep spiritually and being caught unawares.

You are mistaken. Again, I found in one of your articles where the WT admit that they have been wrong about dates. Read the above.

Our hope served as an anchor for our faith. Being aware of the signs of the times has kept us from nodding off. It has kept us busy in the work Jesus assigned his disciples for over 100 years. We have identified the "faithful slave" that Christ appointed, and have fed at his table. (Matthew 24:45) This slave is a composite body as was demonstrated in the first century.....no one man ever dictated beliefs out of his own interpretation....it was always a body of men who were all in agreement and guided by God's spirit.

*** Show me just one scripture where it says that Jesus says that in the last days you should look to an organization or a group of men for the knowledge in God and the last days?

Conversion does not mean becoming a label wearer...it means becoming a footstep follower of Jesus Christ.
Being a footstep follower of Jesus Christ means that we teach what he taught and believe what he believed and do what he did in teaching others.

It leaves out teachings that come from man-made traditions and adoptions from false worship. . .

If we want to be accepted as God's "sons and daughters", then we cannot be found among those who teach false doctrines, celebrate pagan festivals which originally honored false gods, or who fail to do the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-23)

The JWs follow the WT more than they follow the bible. For example, In Acts 1:8, Jesus says, “You shall be witnesses of Me” (Jesus). Why don’t you go door to door talking about Jesus instead of Jehovah? Why aren’t JW called JESUS WITNESSES instead of Jehovah's Witnesses? Isn't it because you are actually following what the WT organization says and not the bible?
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
Please present examples of what you are saying here...because at no time have we claimed to be inired prophets or infallible.

Here is one example,

Col 1: 16-17 states, "for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; 17 and he is before all things, and in him, all things consist."

In the WT bible, it reads this way.

"because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,o whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. q and by means of him all other things were made to exist,"

Why would the WT add the word "other" to their bible when it's not in the original? They are not inspired by God and infallible. This only shows how they will change bible scriptures to support their theology. This is one of many changes that they have done to their bible to support their theology.
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
I have already explained why we believe that Jesus is Michael in a different role. It is not a doctrine, but a belief based on what the scriptures tell us about both of them. It does not matter in the big picture because in any case, Jesus never once claimed to be God nor did he ever teach anything from his own originality. He ascribed all his teachings as coming from his Father whom he himself worshiped both in heaven and on earth. He continued to acknowledge his Father as his God even after his return to heaven. (Revelation 3:12)

You haven't explained how the argument below is in your favor. Can you explain what's wrong or the weakness with the argument against?



1. Argument For: Jesus is Michael the archangel we see it in the scriptures

· Argument Against: The Bible never explicitly describes Jesus as an archangel. There are five references in the Bible to Michael (Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev. 12:7), and in none of these passages is Jesus actually called Michael

2. Argument For: Paul says that the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel (1 Thess. 4:16 ESV). The prefix ‘arch,’ means ‘chief’ or ‘principal,’ which implies that there is only one, so there can only be one archangel; therefore, when Jesus cries with the voice of an archangel at 1 Thess. 4:16 only one can cry with the archangel voice. He must be the chief angel or chief archangel and hence he must be Michael.

· Argument Against: Some compound nouns using arch- are used in the Bible in plural forms to refer to a group of individuals, such as “chief priests” or “chief bodyguards”. When used as a part of titles such as these, the prefix arch- simply indicates that those who hold this title occupy a higher position than others. It tells us nothing about whether that title is held by one individual or more than one. Ancient Jewish texts commonly speak of a group of archangels, either four or seven. Michael, Sariel (or Uriel), Raphael, and Gabriel are the usual four archangels. Perhaps there is only one archangel, or four, or seven, or a hundred. The Bible does not say explicitly how many there are. The word “archangel” does not mean one angel but a higher position.

3. Argument For: The Book of Revelation contains a vision in which John says, “Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon” (Rev. 12:7). Evidently Michael leads the army of angels in Revelation 12:7 this must be Jesus.


Argument Against: Michael leading an army of angels in Revelation 12:7 can simple mean that he is leading on behalf of Christ, who is his superior. Christ, called “the Word of God,leads “the armies of heaven” (Rev. 19:13-14). Far from identifying Christ as Michael, this passage pictures Christ sharing God’s throne and ruling with him while Michael and his angels throw the devil and his angels down to the earth
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Well, you might as well ask, where in the Bible does it say God is three persons, each and all God, each and all without having been created, just all there without a beginning. And equal. After that, you might ask yourself if Jesus was ever given greater responsibility by -- his Father. There is more reason for me to believe that the one spoken of as Michael is none other than Jesus Christ as a spirit person.


No, you're not being reasonable. Never mind the trinity. Think, you accept Jesus as Michael when the bible doesn't say so, but you don't accept Jesus being called God when the bible says so. That is very unreasonable. You are being influenced not by the bible but by what the WT has told you.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
@SLPCCC , re: Hebrews 1:8, don’t forget the next verse. (Context.) Hebrews 1:9.

Now ask yourself: if Jesus is THE God, why would he need God to ‘anoint him with oil’? However, if Jesus is ‘mighty god’ (= a very powerful one), then he would need THE God’s - Yahweh’s - support and approval.

In fact, read the entire beginning of Hebrews 1....Jesus is “the exact representation” of God; he “inherited” a name; “he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in the heavens”.

Jesus isn’t the Majesty, is he? Can you be open enough to recognize that?

Furthermore, a “representation” is not the real item, is it?

Jesus is powerful, there’s no doubt! He was willing to be our Savior; he is our High Priest; he is our King. But God gave him those positions!


You are missing the point. Jesus is not the father. So, all the above makes sense. At the same time, He is called God, not as the Father but as the Son. The WT hate the trinity so much that they throw out the baby with the bathwater.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You are missing the point. Jesus is not the father. So, all the above makes sense. At the same time, He is called God, not as the Father but as the Son. The WT hate the trinity so much that they throw out the baby with the bathwater.

"WT"?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
First, the urgency that was done back then was inspired by God and was infallible. The WT/JW.org is not inspired and is fallible. I found an article that states, “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired. . .” Watchtower February 15, 1981, page 19. You can’t compare yourselves to the apostles. The apostles were inspired; the WT is not inspired and is capable of having and making many mistakes.

Did Jesus’ apostles make many mistakes? You think imperfect humans make no mistakes? Nowhere have we ever claimed to be inspired or to be prophets....please pay attention.

Also, the Apostles didn't give dates the WT has. I found in one of your articles where the WT admit that they have been wrong about giving dates saying, “Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect.” Awake March 22, 1993 pp. 3-4

So admitting mistakes is now something to be ashamed of? As the light on the path gets brighter, so does our understanding increase. (Proverbs 4:18) Corrections are an indication of that increased understanding.....we are not stagnant in our education...we are progressive.

We have never named a “day or hour”...but we have hoped that a certain year may have brought the end of human suffering....so what did that accomplish? It sifted out those who were serving themselves.....they were serving a date, not God or Christ. Our service to God has no dates attached.
For the rest of us, it kept us on our toes, awake and alert as Jesus told us to be. (Matthew 24;42-44)
I explained about what the watchtower represents as our logo. Did you forget so quickly?

Second, the WT is mostly preaching about Jehovah and his name as though God is in heaven wanting everyone to know His name is Jehovah. Can you give just one scripture where Jesus specifically told His disciples to tell everyone about the name of Jehovah?
Well, since “hallowed be thy name” was part of the model prayer....yes, we sanctify God’s name in whatever language we speak...there are more languages than English you know. You think God doesn’t know his own name in any language?

John 17:6, 26 ESV.....Jesus’ words....
6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.”

26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”


God’s Name and Bible Translators — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Show me just one scripture where it says that Jesus says that in the last days you should look to an organization or a group of men for the knowledge in God and the last days?

As part of his description of the sign of the last days of the present system of things, Jesus said he would appoint a “faithful and wise servant” to “feed” his fellow servants their “food at the proper time”.......this is directly connected to the time of Christ’s return.....

“44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. 45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
(Matthew 24:44-46 ESV)

Here we have the channel (in the first century there was a body of elders in Jerusalem acting as an organised group of spiritually qualified men who directed the congregations) so we have the model, and the timeframe is stated at the time of Christ’s return. There is no one else “feeding” Jesus’ servants. And notice that the “food” (not physical food) is dispensed when it is the “proper time”, which means that it is progressively served when it is the right time to give it. Progressive revelation of truth is expected.

The JWs follow the WT more than they follow the bible. For example, In Acts 1:8, Jesus says, “You shall be witnesses of Me” (Jesus). Why don’t you go door to door talking about Jesus instead of Jehovah? Why aren’t JW called JESUS WITNESSES instead of Jehovah's Witnesses? Isn't it because you are actually following what the WT organization says and not the bible?

Already addressed this....please pay attention. We take our name from Isaiah 43:10. What is the role of a witness? Is it not to give testimony about something. Our witnessing is the same as what Jesus commissioned in Matthew 28:19-20. As part of our witness is the role of the son in the Father’s purpose. We also explain the role of God’s spirit in the outworking of that purpose.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
When you say in English "We", who do you mean?

Elohim is plural, yet doesn't mean "many beings" if that's what you mean to say, and I can't understand the relevance of that sentence unless I just didn't understand you. Elohim is not used to talk about other peoples gods just because its plural. Its just a generic word like God. So you can use it in a sentence. Being plural has no bearing. It will be the same if you use El which is the singular.
I meant the title is shared among many beings. For example JHVH is also called 'El 'elim (God of gods, Daniel 11:36), ha 'elohîm (the God)...

"God (Elohim) has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods (Elohim) he holds judgment..." (Psalm 82:1)
 
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