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John's christology and the Dead Sea Scrolls

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In the early Christian type of Judaism, there was no need for a Shiach Tzibur or “messenger of the congregation” who must be “accepted by the congregation” in order to “gather” or “lift the prayers of others”. An individuals’ prayers could be offered directly to God.
OK, that's fine, skip it, I don't need it to prove my point. All that's needed is the idea of the Cohen-Gadol as a mediator, the Cohen Gadol must be pure per Leviticus. Your previous a post confirmed this was "Ancient Judaism" so that means it should be permissible. it is well known that the Cohen Godol must be pure. the activities described in the Book of John by JC render impurity. He cannot be a mediator similar in anyway to a Cohen Gadol as described in the Book of John. Cannot. Maybe it's reconciled elsewhere,...
Similarly in the Christian Judaism, a person need not pray in the name of Jesus for example to simply thank God for all that he’s done and nothing else”.
The ATONEMENT that is wrought by the Messiah is what is only accessed through the Messiah who accomplished it. If I am asking for forgiveness, then I could certainly pray that I be forgiven "because of the atonement the Messiah wrought", or "because of Jesus", or "in the name of Jesus (as my mediator)" or I can use any other similar request in any type of words I can think of that indicate that I recognize the atonement the Messiah wrought and am asking for help in improving and want access to the benefits of the atonement wrought by the messiah.
Beautiful. Is this what is described in the Book of John? Specifically: "simply thank God for all that he’s done “and nothing else”.
Can you elaborate specifically on what specific sin’s the Book of John said Jesus was guilty of while God wrought miracles through Jesus?
I can,

When Jesus is arguing with the Judges about working on Shabbos. The manner in which he defended it is a Desecration of G-d. The discussion needed to happen in private, if Jesus in the story was a Pious Jew, he would not have done this. It's a big deal. Not eating on Shabbos if you're able to, I'm quite sure is a sin. Shabbos is supposed to be a delight, an oneg in Hebrew. It's from Isaiah. John 9:39. He is harming people. Taking away their sight. That is a violation of Love your Neighbor. He is showing off in front of a prostitute, that's a violation of "walk humbly before G-d". He is harming himself. Suicide is a sin. The justification for it is not obvious from the literal translation, but its source is Genesis 9:5. Instructing people to pray in his name is instructing others to violate the Ten Commandments, that is "putting a stumbling block" in front of his fellows, Lev. 19:14.

Desecration of Shabbos, traveling and working
Desecration of Shabbos, not delighting in it
Desecration of G-d, arguing about halacha in public with Judges
Harming people
Haughtiness
Harming himself
Putting a stumbling block

That's 7.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In explaining how the messiah will come and the relationship of the atonement to mankind, God describes the Messiah to Adam thusly : "He shall perform innumerable mighty deeds and wonders, He shall raise the dead, He shall drive out the devils, he shall heal those who are sick of the palsy, he shall make the lame to walk, the deaf He shall make to hear, and the dumb He shall make to speak, He shall cleanse the lepers, and [restore] the arms that are withered, and He shall open the eyes of the blind by the word of His power, In short, there shall be no limit to the miracles which He shall perform, but in spite of all these men will not believe on Him. And at length, after all these things, they shall rise up against Him, and they shall deliver Him over unto death, and they shall give Him into the hand of the Governor, that is to say, Pilate, and he shall judge Him for thy sake. He shall be in the form of a servant for thy sake. They shall smite Him in the face for thy sake. They shall treat Him with contempt and vilify him for thy sake. The shall pass sentence of condemnation upon Him as if He were a sacrilegious person. They shall mount Him upon the wood of the Cross, between two thieves, for thy sake. They shall set a crown of thorns upon His head for thy sake. They shall make Him drink vinegar and gall for thy sake. They shall drive nails into His hands and feet for thy sake. He shall yield up His Spirit on the Cross. They shall pierce his side with a spear so that water and blood shall flow forth therefrom, and it is these which shall cleanse the sins of the world. They shall lay Him in a new tomb. He shall rise from the dead on the third day. He shall go down into Amente, He shall shatter the gate of brass, and break in pieces the bolts of iron, and shall bring thee up therefrom together with all those who shall be held there in captivity with thee. For thy sake, O Adam, the son of God shall suffer all these things until He hath redeemed thee, and restored thee to Paradise, unto the place whence thou didst come, for He made Himself to be thy advocate (or, protector), when thou wast clay, before He put spirit (or, breath) into thee." (D. Abbaton)
Assuming that I treat these words as authoritative... who is "thy" in "for thy sake"?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1) Regarding the Messiah and who felt he was rendered "impure"

dybmh said : the activities described in the Book of John by JC render impurity.

Though the Rabbinic Jews may have called the Messiah "impure", was he actually "impure" in the instances when God was performing miracles and doing other religious activities for God?
Lets go through the scriptures you are referring to.

2) Regarding the Judaism that accepted the Messiah as the mediator, their Great High Priest

dybmh said : "He cannot be a mediator similar in anyway to a Cohen Gadol as described in the Book of John. Cannot. Maybe it's reconciled elsewhere,..".
In the Judaism that recognized him as the Messiah (Christianity), he was recognized as the great high priest. It was to the non-believing Jews that he was not recognized as the Great High Priest.


3) Regarding whether one can directly approach God in prayer
dybmh said : "Is this what is described in the Book of John? Specifically: "simply thank God for all that he’s done “and nothing else”.

No, you are mischaracterizing the principle. You can approach God in prayer for anything. You can ask for blueberry pie if you think that is worthy of a prayer to God. The principle is that that your characterization that Christians must pray to God through the Messiah was incorrect.

If you want to pray for access to the atonement of the Messiah, you can pray for access to the atonement of the Messiah. If you don't want access to that atonement, you do not have to ask to access it in prayer.

4) Regarding the ancient Jews and the things Jesus did that made him "impure" in their eyes and whether this made him "impure" in the eyes of God who did miracles through the messiah

dybmh said:
1) Desecration of Shabbos, traveling and working
2) Desecration of Shabbos, not delighting in it
3) Desecration of G-d, arguing about halacha in public with Judges
4) Harming people
5) Haughtiness
6) Harming himself
7) Putting a stumbling block



Lets examine these examples, one at a time.
Give me the reference in New Testament John for #1 where this made the messiah impure to God.

Text Reference please?

Clear
εισετζτωω
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Give me the reference in New Testament John for #1 where this made the messiah impure to God.
So, I can certainly discuss each of the sins in the text. However the topic of impurity rendered from the sins gets very very complicated. The most straight forward example in my opinion is, performing a miracle while actively transgressing. The best example of this, is chapter 5 at the pool.

Jesus tells an invalid to pick up his mat and walk. At the same time, he healed him. And all of this happens on Shabbos. John 5:8-9.

Later in the chapter, Jesus clearly has no remorse for this or any of the other times he refuses to rest on Shabbos.

The result is that the words and actions of Jesus in chapter 5 are knowingly in opposition to Torah. Words and actions chosen and executed knowingly to oppose Torah receive their vitality from forces opposing Torah. Performing a miracle in these circumstances is fueled from forces which oppose Torah. That's where the impurity comes from in this example.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
holistic interpretation of all of the synoptic data would seem to suggest that he did believe in the teaching authority of the Rabbis and in an Oral Torah but may have regarded some traditions as 'spurious', whereas others were (in his assesment) genuine Mosaic oral tradition.
Here I have do disagree with you because what I am convinced that he was doing was to simplify Torah as to state that it was all about love of God and our fellow humans. Thus, obedience to the specifics of the Oral Law was unimportant even when it is an accurate reflection of specific teachings. Hillel pretty much also went in that direction but not as far as Jesus and his followers took it.

IOW, Jesus' basic message was, imo, "Love God and all of His creation, and then clean up your act!"-- the "Law of Love"-- iow, "agape", extended to all.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I concur with the first part, but I think you may want to consider putting the breaks on the second part, and leave that WMD to the supercessionists to carry.
  • Matthew 15.
    • 21 And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
    • T.S. notes: Jesus was a Jew. A Jew coming to the lost sheep of the house is certainly not a reform of Judaism.
  • Who are the lost sheep of Israel? Jeremiah 50.
    • 6 My people were lost sheep, their shepherds caused them to stray, [to the] mountains [they] led them astray; from mountain to hill they went, they forgot their resting place.
  • Did Jesus give Jewish religious leaders a hard time? No doubt about that. But so what? Nothing new, IMO. Samuel Dresner's "The Zaddik" tells me that Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polonoy wrote a book ("Toldot Yaakov Yosef") that the Mitnagdim of his time (late 18th century) burned when they could find copies because it ripped into the Jewish leaders of that time and place. I say: Jesus was a true Zaddik of Israel in his lifetime on earth; and, thanks to his resurrection and ascension, he has become an eternal Zaddik to and for us non-Jews.
I'm not sure where you're coming from on the part I highlighted in red? I am not a suppercessionist.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Vouthon

There's a problem with one of the conclusions presented in the sources you provided for the Scroll of MelchiTzedek.

upload_2020-6-19_9-0-21.png


This conclusion is based on a false premise. Note that the four letter name is above all "Divine Beings" ref Psalms 95:3

upload_2020-6-19_9-12-44.png
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Here I have do disagree with you because what I am convinced that he was doing was to simplify Torah as to state that it was all about love of God and our fellow humans. Thus, obedience to the specifics of the Oral Law was unimportant even when it is an accurate reflection of specific teachings. Hillel pretty much also went in that direction but not as far as Jesus and his followers took it.

IOW, Jesus' basic message was, imo, "Love God and all of His creation, and then clean up your act!"-- the "Law of Love"-- iow, "agape", extended to all.

I concur with you that he summarised the essence of the Torah in the twin commandments, "love God with all your heart, soul, mind" and one's neighbour as oneself. Everything else is 'relative' to and contingent upon this essence of the Torah (in his judgement).

However, where I may disagree somewhat is that the early church after Jesus's death, in Jerusalem, continued to be entirely Torah-observant (which would include both the written word and the oral traditions Jesus had regarded as authoritative). The majority of scholars today do not believe that he actually 'abrogated' the Torah or expected other Jews to cease being Torah-observant.

Had this been the case, then we need to consider why the Council of Jerusalem in 50 CE had to be summoned in the first place: the question set before the apostles gathered around James and Peter at the council was - "do Gentiles need to become Jewish proselytes and adhere to the Torah to become followers of Jesus?"

The entire premise of that 'dispute', presupposes that the Jewish apostles were Torah-observant. We can see this spelt out very clearly in the subtext of Acts chapter 21, where Paul comes before James - Jesus's 'brother' and the titular head of the Jerusalem church, then the mother church of the Christian movement in the pre-destruction of the Second Temple era - and James informs him that pernicious rumours had been spread abroad that he was encouraging Jews to cease obeying Torah. To 'quash' the rumours - which James takes to be false - he and the other 'elders' tell Paul to undergo a ritual purification rite to prove his faithfulness to the mitzvot in public and Paul humbly obliges (deferring to James's authority):



"When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us warmly. 18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James; and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God.

Then they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the Torah. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow.

24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the Torah. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled* and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them."


(Acts 21:17-26)​



Note that every Jewish Christian is described here by the Jerusalem elders as strictly Torah observant ("zealous" for the Torah) and Paul complies with the order to demonstrate that he too is still a Torah-observant Jew, even performing a sacrifice in the Temple.

Interestingly, in a somewhat related linguistic matter to our discussion at the start of my post, I read somewhere that in Hebrew the words for “neighbor” (re‘a Leviticus 19.18) and “enemy/evil [one]” (ra‘, as in 1 Sam 30.22) share the same consonants (resh and ayin), distinguishable only in vowels which aren't in the text. Thus, when Jesus in Luke expounds the Parable of the Good Samaritan in response to the question from the Torah-teacher, "Who is my neighbour?", his reply “What do you read there?” is akin to demanding of him: “Can't you see in the Torah the injuctuon to love neighbor (in the narrow sense) and your enemies?”

So, yes, Jesus goes further even than Hillel in taking the Torahic concept of 'neighbour' in the direction of an all-encompassing love of other human beings, irrespective of their merits - thus including 'enemies' (most radically) in that 'love': "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:44-45).

I once read a midrash concerning Rabbi Yehoshua ben Korcha, in which the sage was asked by a non-Jew: "When do we [Jews and Gentiles] ever rejoice together?"


The Rabbi answered:


'We rejoice together when the rain falls. Why is this? 'The meadows are clothed with flocks; the valleys are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, yea, they sing' " (Psalms 65:14). What is written after this? 'Shout unto God, all the earth.' It is not written ['Shout unto God] Priests, Levites, and Israelites,' but 'Shout . . . all the earth!' (Genesis Rabbah 13:6)


God's 'blessing of rain' is for all: that is, his divine providence in nature as supreme benefactor of His creatures. This eternal loving-kindness expressed through His rich bounty in nature, was viewed as "indifferent" to the merits or choices of the recipients. All the earth, good and bad.

Jesus and the Rabbis agreed on this, only Jesus took it 'further' than they did towards a more radical 'love ethic' in terms of its application but there was precedent in Jewish tradition for something close to it.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@Vouthon

There's a problem with one of the conclusions presented in the sources you provided for the Scroll of MelchiTzedek.

View attachment 40788

This conclusion is based on a false premise. Note that the four letter name is above all "Divine Beings" ref Psalms 95:3

View attachment 40789

It should be noted that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain our oldest extant copies of the Book of Isaiah and these are greatly older than any of the extant Masoretic Hebrew or Christian LXX translations:


Isaiah Scroll - Wikipedia.


The Isaiah Scroll, designated 1Qlsaa and also known as the Great Isaiah Scroll, is one of the seven Dead Sea Scrolls that were first discovered by Bedouin shepherds in 1946 from Qumran Cave 1.[1] The scroll is written in Hebrew and contains the entire Book of Isaiah from beginning to end, apart from a few small damaged portions.[2] It is the oldest complete copy of the Book of Isaiah, being approximately 1000 years older than the oldest Hebrew manuscripts known before the scrolls' discovery.[2] 1QIsaa is also notable in being the only scroll from the Qumran Caves to be preserved almost in its entirety.[3]

The scroll contains scribal errors, corrections, and more than 2600 textual variants when compared with the Masoretic codex.[2]...[3] Some variants are significant and include differences in one or more verses or in several words. Most variants are more minor and include differences of a single word, alternative spellings, plural versus single usage, and changes in the order of words.[11]

In some cases, the variants from 1QIsaa have been incorporated in modern bible translations. An example is Isaiah 53:11 where 1QIsaa and Septuagint versions match and clarify the meaning, while the Masoretic Text is somewhat obscure.[3] Dr. Peter Flint notes that better readings from the Qumran scrolls such as Isaiah 53:11 have been adopted by the New International Version translation and Revised Standard Version translation.[19]

As such it is to be expected that there will be at least some variants in certain verses, owing to scribal activity. Perhaps this is one of the issues you are having? Generally, the Qumran text isn't that different from the Masoretic but there are some significant variants as noted above.

Also, the entire Melchizedek scroll is an ancient midrash / scriptural exegesis upon Leviticus 25, Deuteronomy 15, Isaiah 52 and 61, Daniel 9, Psalms 7 and 8, in which the scribe frequently replaces the tetragrammaton (YHWH) with the name Melchizedek (as in his quotation of Isaiah 61:2).

So, the ancient scribe has a deliberate theological framework that he is imputing into the scriptural citations as he strings them together into an argument in favour of Melchizedek being a heavenly high priestly redeemer manifesting YHWH and carrying out 'atonement' on behalf of the sons of light (the men of Melchizedek's lot) on the day of judgement in a tenth and final jubilee.
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @dybmh and @Vouthon

1)THE ISSUE OF THE MESSIAH JESUS AS MEDIATOR IN SIMILITUDE TO A PRIEST WHICH IS ALSO A MEDIATOR


When pointing out that the base meaning of Cohen/Priest is a mediator.

Post #140, dybmh pointed out that a cantor “must be pure in order to perform their duties” and “The same is obviously true of the High Priest” and explains “The Book of John describes JC as sinning…this would disqualify him for gathering and lifting his fellows prayers.

I do not agree that the Messiah disobeyed Gods Torah. Instead, I agree that the Messiah did not obey the traditions Pharisees had instituted as their version of the Torah. I even think the Messiah healed on the Sabbath on purpose in order to demonstrate to the Jews, the hollowness and hypocrisy of the religious laws the Pharisees had formed out of their own man made traditions is opposition to original laws of God and Gods intent in giving those laws.





2)THE LAWS OF GOD AND GODS INTENT VERSUS THE TRADITIONS OF PHARISEES REGARDING WHAT MADE ONE “PURE” OR “IMPURE”

dybmh claims the Messiah was guilty of #1) Desecration of Shabbos, traveling and working

Dybmh explained : “Jesus tells an invalid to pick up his mat and walk. At the same time, he healed him. And all of this happens on Shabbos. John 5:8-9. (post #164)



John 5 tells us that a man had been an invalid for almost 40 years.

The Messiah approaches the invalid and, in concert with God and through the power of God performs a miracle of healing this man of his affliction.

The Messiah then tells the man to pick up the poor mans mat (gk κραββατος) and “go” (περιπατεω).

The man picked up his mat and “went”.


I agree that the pharisees could have viewed the Messiah as having disobeyed their man-made traditions and interpretations and thus, they could have viewed the Messiah as impure. The Pharisees also could have seen a miracle, done in concern with the very God who gave the original commandments, and could have engaged in reflection as to whether the traditions they created were in harmony with the Laws of the God who had just performed the miracle of healing this invalid. I agree that they chose to honor their traditions instead of considering the significance of the God who gave the law in the first place having performed a miracle through the Messiah.




THE COMMAND NOT TO “WORK” ON THE SABBATH

Exodus 20:10 says “but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You shall not do any work on it, you and your sons, and your daughter, your servant and your maidservant, your ox, and your beast of burden and all of your cattle, and the convert, the one sojourning among you.

Perhaps we can consider the answer to some questions about this specific law. For examples :

Does this mean absolutely NO work, no efforts, no actions of any kind may be done on the sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of breathing on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of picking up a baby who is crying on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of changing a diaper on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of putting food in your mouth on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of Getting up in the night to urinate on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of picking up the Torah scroll and putting it away at a synagogue on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of moving the scroll such as to read verses on a different portion of the scroll on the Sabbath??

Does God allow one to do the work of putting on clothes on the Sabbath?

If a tiny spark comes out of my fireplace and starts a tiny fire in a pile of wood or clothes that is going to result in the burning of my home and my neighbors and perhaps the neighborhood. Does God allow me to do the work of pouring a glass of water on it while it is still a tiny fire?


IF we are allowed to do ANY of these things which involve work (and many, many other things one can ask about), then one is allowed to do some sort of work on the sabbath.

The question then becomes WHAT SORT of WORK does God want to prohibit on the Sabbath.


Lets first discuss these things and then God on to discuss the “work” which the Messiah performed on the Sabbath.

Clear
εισιφιφυω
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It should be noted that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain our oldest extant copies of the Book of Isaiah and these are greatly older than any of the extant Masoretic Hebrew or Christian LXX translations:


Isaiah Scroll - Wikipedia.


The Isaiah Scroll, designated 1Qlsaa and also known as the Great Isaiah Scroll, is one of the seven Dead Sea Scrolls that were first discovered by Bedouin shepherds in 1946 from Qumran Cave 1.[1] The scroll is written in Hebrew and contains the entire Book of Isaiah from beginning to end, apart from a few small damaged portions.[2] It is the oldest complete copy of the Book of Isaiah, being approximately 1000 years older than the oldest Hebrew manuscripts known before the scrolls' discovery.[2] 1QIsaa is also notable in being the only scroll from the Qumran Caves to be preserved almost in its entirety.[3]

The scroll contains scribal errors, corrections, and more than 2600 textual variants when compared with the Masoretic codex.[2]...[3] Some variants are significant and include differences in one or more verses or in several words. Most variants are more minor and include differences of a single word, alternative spellings, plural versus single usage, and changes in the order of words.[11]

In some cases, the variants from 1QIsaa have been incorporated in modern bible translations. An example is Isaiah 53:11 where 1QIsaa and Septuagint versions match and clarify the meaning, while the Masoretic Text is somewhat obscure.[3] Dr. Peter Flint notes that better readings from the Qumran scrolls such as Isaiah 53:11 have been adopted by the New International Version translation and Revised Standard Version translation.[19]

As such it is to be expected that there will be at least some variants in certain verses, owing to scribal activity. Perhaps this is one of the issues you are having? Generally, the Qumran text isn't that different from the Masoretic but there are some significant variants as noted above.

Also, the entire Melchizedek scroll is an ancient midrash / scriptural exegesis upon Leviticus 25, Deuteronomy 15, Isaiah 52 and 61, Daniel 9, Psalms 7 and 8, in which the scribe frequently replaces the tetragrammaton (YHWH) with the name Melchizedek (as in his quotation of Isaiah 61:2).

So, the ancient scribe has a deliberate theological framework that he is imputing into the scriptural citations as he strings them together into an argument in favour of Melchizedek being a heavenly high priestly redeemer manifesting YHWH and carrying out 'atonement' on behalf of the sons of light (the men of Melchizedek's lot) on the day of judgement in a tenth and final jubilee.
The conclusion in the red box is in opposition of Jewish Theology. It's based on a false premise. This is from your source.

upload_2020-6-19_11-52-59.png


If this is from a fragment of the dead sea scrolls, I can read Hebrew, the scans of the scrolls are online. Give me a push in the right direction, and we'll see precisely what is written in the scroll.

The screenshot you provided in english, appears to be schoralship/commentary, not the direct words from the scroll. if I'm reading it correctly, the scroll describes an elevation of the status of Aleph-Lamed to Elokim. That may be in the scroll. But the scholar/commentary used this elevation to "suggesting again the identification of MelchiTzedek with [the four letter name]".

No. That's opposed to Jewish Theology as evidenced by Psa 95:3. This is classic Panentheism. Please note: I have been asserting this previously ( posts 108 and 136 ).

That's why this jumped out at me. It's fundamentally NOT Jewish. That means if this is "influencing" The Book of John, then the influence is NOT Jewish. No one, nothing is identified as the four-letter-name except itself. This is the name before names before time, before Creation ( capital C, meaning before Genesis ). Please refer to Gen 1:1, and compare it with Psa 95:3 in Hebrew.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@dybmh Here is a completely different scholar in another study analysing the same Hebrew text:

upload_2020-6-19_19-49-20.png
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@dybmh Here is a completely different scholar in another study analysing the same Hebrew text:
Commentary from someone who does not know Jewish Theology.

No one nothing is elevated to the status of the four letter name in Judiasm.

Find me something written in Hebrew that says it, I don't care how old it is. I don't care who the author is.

( Please understand, this is like equating Jesus to the apostles; it's not Christian in the same way that this claim is not Jewish )
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Commentary from someone who does not know Jewish Theology.

No one nothing is elevated to the status of the four letter name in Judiasm.

Find me something written in Hebrew that says it, I don't care how old it is. I don't care who the author is.

The text comes in different Hebrew fragments that scholars have had to piece together into a composite, but I can find what I think is a transcription of one of these fragments (from column II) which hopefully might help:

11qmelch-col-ii2.jpg


This is from Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition (eds.García Martinez and Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar, 1208). Highlights in the transcription indicate the parts of the Tanakh verses which are quoted in the Hebrew text of this particular manuscript fragment.

I will try to look for other fragments of the text (time permitting but I'll likely be far too busy tommorrow).
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The text comes in different Hebrew fragments that scholars have had to piece together into a composite, but I can find what I think is a transcription of one of these fragments (from column II) which hopefully might help:
Please send me a link? Then I can zoom in...
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
do not agree that the Messiah disobeyed Gods Torah.
Agreed :)
Instead, I agree that the Messiah did not obey the traditions Pharisees had instituted as their version of the Torah. I even think the Messiah healed on the Sabbath on purpose in order to demonstrate to the Jews, the hollowness and hypocrisy of the religious laws the Pharisees had formed out of their own man made traditions is opposition to original laws of God and Gods intent in giving those laws.
OK, the problem here is, that healing on Shabbos is not a sin. That wasn't in my list. He was traveling and working. That's 1 problem. And then from a different perspective ( different mitzvah ) he obstained from delight on the Shabbos. Healing on Shabbos, is super-duper Good. The reason he did it on Shabbos, is because he was transmuting. And he was using the enhanced spiritual resources available to perform the miracle. All the miracles happen oin Shabbos or approaching the Festivals. This is important to discern ( ;) ) the nature of the miracles he is performing. I suspect that the-one-who-taught-him tricked him into thinking that due to his own self sacrifice and inherent holiness that he would remain pure in the process. The logic behind this is sound. And that's why I never included healing as a sin, even though the transmutation probably did harm someone else, robbing them of their own vitality. That's how transmutation works. When he made bread, he took it from somewhere else. He claims he took it form his own being. And perhaps he did. This why I didn't cite creating the bread as a sin, eventhough, it had to come from somewhere, transmutation....

So, understand, the healing was not the sin. Jesus was confronted and asked if he was working. He asserted that he was. And argued that *He* didn't need to follow the rules because of his own inherent Glory. It had nothing to do with healing. Again this happening on Shabbos. It's bad, very very bad. this "Baddness" would have followed him around all week at least. without atonement and purification, per Leviticus, he would not be able to officiate as a Cohel-Gadol for sure.
Perhaps we can consider the answer to some questions about this specific law. For examples :

Does this mean absolutely NO work, no efforts, no actions of any kind may be done on the sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of breathing on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of picking up a baby who is crying on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of changing a diaper on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of putting food in your mouth on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of Can you get up in the night to urinate on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of Can you pick up the Torah and put it away at a synagogue on the Sabbath?

Does God allow one to do the work of Can they move it such as to read verses on a different portion of the scroll on the Sabbath??

Does God allow one to do the work of Can you put on clothes on the Sabbath?

If a tiny spark comes out of my fireplace and starts a tiny fire in a pile of wood or clothes that is going to result in the burning of my home and my neighbors and perhaps the neighborhood. Does God allow me to do the work of pouring a glass of water on it while it is still a tiny fire?

Beautiful, is that the justification and the argumentation in chapter 5 of The Book of John? ( no. it isn't ) The justification that is offered is the inherent Glory of the JC-Father couplet. Those words are an unholy vessel. Manufactured, signed sealed and delivered on Shabbos in public. The Book of John makes a convincing argument for this inherent Glory of his, and ( this is the important part ) had anyone overheard it, **or if those words were ever written down ** and some poor person said them in ignorance of what they meant: That is a cancer on the world of epic proportions. If the story is true.. of course.

Do we agree? Praying to a JC+Father couplet because of it's inherent Glory is 100% diametrically opposite of Christian doctrine? Well... that's what's in the book.

If a tiny spark comes out of my fireplace and starts a tiny fire in a pile of wood or clothes that is going to result in the burning of my home and my neighbors and perhaps the neighborhood. Does God allow me to do the work of pouring a glass of water on it while it is still a tiny fire?
Yes....
IF we are allowed to do ANY of these things which involve work (and many, many other things one can ask about), then one is allowed to do some sort of work.
Yes, but not for our own self glorification... especially on Shabbos....
Lets first discuss these things and then God on to discuss the “work” which the Messiah performed on the Sabbath.
It's not the work he did. I'm sorry. It's whom he hurt in the process, including, himself.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
What's the deal with the stuff in brackets?

@Harel13,

I'm not seeing anything in this referencing the 4 letter name... I'm still trying to process what's said here, and this is maxing out my Hebrew language skills.

If I can refer to a different dead sea scholar (in case it helps?) and remembering that this is a fragment:

upload_2020-6-19_21-21-48.png


upload_2020-6-19_21-23-22.png



I'm not sure if the above is in this particular Hebrew fragment?
 
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