Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?

[Deeje]

In the passage below it appears that Jesus brings with Him those who are asleep in Him and then raises them from the dead. Their spiritual souls are brought by Jesus and they are again joined to their body, which is transformed and glorified.

1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you understand that there are two resurrections spoken about in the Bible which are very different? If you read that passage in conjunction with other scripture, rather than in isolation, you will see some interesting details....(this rendering is from a very bad translation IMO.)

1) the dead are “asleep”....not alive somewhere else.

2) those who “sleep in Jesus” are resurrected first. (Revelation 20:6) The “first resurrection” is for those who will join Christ in heaven as ‘kings and priests’. This is a separate resurrection to the one spoken about in John 5:28-29, which is the general resurrection of all who are still in their graves. The Kingdom is a government of God which will rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

3) those whom Jesus “brings with him” at the judgment have already been resurrected but with spiritual bodies even as Jesus was.

4) Those who are alive when Jesus returns have no need to sleep, but are resurrected in the spirit (transformed to spirit form) as soon as their physical body dies.

5) “the dead in Christ rise first”, which means that the heavenly kingdom is in full operation as our King and his co-rulers, along with the angelic forces, cleanse the earth of all wickedness and bring in the blessings of the Kingdom which Jesus told us to pray for. We are not praying to go to the kingdom, but for that kingdom to “come” to us. (Daniel 2:44) It will not "come" quietly.

Everything that God intended life to be on this planet will be accomplished, (Isaiah 55:11) but not until humans and angels learn the value of obedience and the proper use of free will.

I believe that your limited knowledge of scripture holds you captive to Christendom’s teachings......I studied the Bible very carefully and came to understand that unless you have the Bible’s overall message to shape the way you read it, then you will be taken into the wild and distorted world of the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable. (Matthew 13:36-42)

 

[Deeje]

Isaiah 57: 1-2; God people die and no one understands or even cares, but when they (GOOD PEOPLE) die, no calamity hurts them. Those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death. The JW will tell you that those who live wicked lives find peace and rest in death.

The good die with the hope of the resurrection...which is also promised to the "unrighteous"...those who perhaps lived an unrighteous life because of ignorance rather than wickedness. God knows the difference. (Acts 24:15)
The incorrigibly wicked die with eternal death as the recompense for their actions. Why does God need to torture anyone? His justice is served by taking away the gift of life. He is not a fiend who finds pleasure in tormenting someone forever. That would require them to be alive forever....everlasting life is given only to the righteous.
God finds no pleasure even in the death of the wicked. (Ezekiel 33:11)

The JW, who refuses to accept the truths as revealed in the scriptures, accuse the spirit that prophesied to Saul as being demonic..

Refer to #119 above...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ecclesiastes 12:7.Ecclesiastes 12:14. Hebrews 9:27. I have the thinking of a jw witness so I say the answer is no.What do you think?

There's also the Bosom of Abraham from the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16, where the souls of the righteous awaited Christ to lead them to Heaven.

Oh, and Jesus telling the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day.

 

[Brian2]

What "many things" do you mean?

JWs seem willing to close their eyes to the many mistakes predictions of the end, meaning that they are not the faithful and discreet slave who feeds the flock it's food at the appropriate time.
To the changes in doctrine that come as a result of these mistakes predictions. To changes in other doctrines over the time JW history. All these changes are explained by the light growing brighter over time, but in reality it means that earlier doctrines which were seen as being present light were actually present darkness.
That "resurrection" is actually not a resurrection but is a recreation when the whole person goes out of existence.
That the other sheep of John 10:16 are the gentiles and that there is nothing except the word of the JW doctrine makers to connect the other sheep to the great crowd in Revelations.
That the New World Translation has alterations to the original text which are positive for JW doctrine.
That God created alone (Isa 44:24) but that Jesus was there doing it also.
That Jesus is the only judge who is coming to judge the earth but the OT has the picture of Jehovah coming to judge the earth.
And of course there are others, but I'm sure you get the idea.

 

[Brian2]

What is “hell” in this passage? It is “Gehenna” erroneously translated “hell” in many Bibles. “Gehenna” is not “hades” (also translated “hell”) which is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew, “Sheol”.....so what do you think Jesus was actually saying in this verse? What does it mean that God can “destroy” both body and soul in “Gehenna”? What does “destroy” mean?
Hades is said to be emptied, and judgment of its inhabitants is said to take place after that, so in your understanding, what does that mean? (Revelation 20:13)

That is avoiding the point I was making about the death of the body not being the death of the soul. If you say that a person is still alive in the memory of God and so the soul is not killed, then that means that nobody can really kill our body since God remembers it. The JW doctrine of death is complete obliteration of the person, everything dies.

“What” do you think is resurrected? When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus from the dead, where did Jesus say Lazarus was? (John 11:11-14) When Jesus resurrects the dead, like he did Lazarus, where does he call them from? The same place. (John 5:28-29) Jesus can't call the dead from their graves unless they are still there.

Resurrection is the reuniting of the spiritual to the physical parts of our being. The exact same physical part is not really important because our physical is being renewed all the time and in not the same molecules we had years ago. The point I was making is that if we completely go out of existence at death then God has to "recreate" us. This can only be a copy of us. It would be just as if God made a copy of me now while I still lived, it would be a copy, a copy that thought it was me.

 

[The Anointed]

Do you know the background information concerning what Saul did in trying to contact the dead prophet, Samuel? If you did, then you would know that God had outlawed necromancy. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)
Saul himself had been used to rid the land of all forms of spiritism at God’s command. But because of his disobedience, Saul had been abandoned by God, and the living prophets would not even speak to him. He was going mad because God had withdrawn his spirit from him.
In desperation he tried to find a spirit medium who could bring up the spirit of the now dead prophet Samuel from whom Saul had received his guidance and direction in the past. Now ask yourself.....would God answer the request of a disobedient king whom he had abandoned and who used a spirit medium, breaking God’s law, to give him guidance......and if the living prophets had refused to speak with Saul, why would a dead prophet do so?

The 'witch of Endor' brought up a spirit who claimed to be Samuel, but no one could see or hear him except the woman. Why did God forbid necromancy to his people? Because wicked spirits used it impersonate the dead and to deceive people into believing that spirits of the dead live on....somewhere. This was the first lie told in Eden to fool the woman.....the devil told her “you surely will not die”.....so when they did, the only way to perpetuate that lie was to deceive people into believing that they had a conscious spirit that left the body to exist in an invisible realm....the details of which are filled in by vivid imaginations....not scripture.

The Bible says that all thought processes cease at death; that once the “spirit” (breath) is extinguished, life ceases. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Psalm 146:4) Resurrection is a restoration of life....God gives back the spirit (breath) that he gave mankind in the first place.

You say: you would know that God had outlawed necromancy. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

But God has outlawed all sin. God didn't say that it was not possible for you to murder your neighbor, but that it was a sin to do so. God did not say that it was not possible to disturb the rest of the righteous dead, but that it was a sin to do so.

And How dangerous do you believe that it is, to make contact with the wicked spirits that have no rest in death as they await the great day of Judgement, when the Son of Man, will divide the wicked spirits on his left, from the righteous spirits on his right, who are to inherit everlasting life, and then say to those on his left; "Away from me you who are under Gods Curse. Away to the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Which is their second death, the everlasting death of the unrepentant wicked 'MINDS/SPIRITS' that had developed within the bodies that had suffered the first death,

From the book of Sirach, which is to be found in the Apocrypha of the Old Testament, coupled together with the book of Job, a number of the Psalms, Parables, Ecclesiastes, and the Wisdom of Solomon, all belong to the Hogmah or Wisdom Literature of the Hebrews, ‘Mashal’ means Similitude, parable, or proverb.----- In the book of Sirach, R, H, Charles translation chapter 47 verse 17, it is written concerning Solomon, “By thy songs, parables, dark speeches, and satires, thou didst cause astonishment to the peoples etc.”

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. I envy those who are dead and gone; they are better off than those who are still alive. But better off than either, are those who have never been born etc.

A man may have a hundred children and live a long time, but no matter how long he lives, if he does not get his share of happiness and does not receive a descent burial, then I say that a baby born dead is better off.

Man and animal receive the same ultimate reward, total oblivion, from the dust they came and to the dust they shall return. A wise man is no better off than a fool, the reward for doing good is the same as that for doing evil, so don’t be too good or too wise, Why kill yourself?

We are all going to our final resting place, and although life is useless, the conclusion of the matter is, if you live a religious life you may at least experience some peace in the short span of consciousness that has been allocated to you in this useless life. So go ahead and eat, drink and be merry, drink your wine and be cheerful. It’s all right with God. Enjoy your life with the woman you love, as long as you live the useless life that God has given you in this world. Enjoy every useless day of it, because that is all that you’ll get for all your troubles.

Never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in the world of the dead to where the righteous, the wicked, the wise and the fools, animal and man, are all going. For the living know that they are going to die, but the dead know nothing.

Of the four books written by Solomon, His songs are found in his book, ‘SONG OF SONGS',’ his parables are found in his book of 'PROVERBS', his dark speeches are in the ‘WISDOM OF SOLOMON' and who can read the negative and even depressing words from the book of ‘Ecclesiastes without realizing that here is the 'SATRICAL' work of Solomon, aimed at those people of the godless religion, who believed in neither life after death, or the resurrection from the dead.

What a pity that you believe that it was God, who said to 'YOU' in the book of Ecclesiastes, that 'YOU' will never again take part in anything that happens in the world, (No resurrection) from the world of the dead to where 'YOU' are going.

 

[Brian2]

Now ask yourself.....would God answer the request of a disobedient king whom he had abandoned and who used a spirit medium, breaking God’s law, to give him guidance......and if the living prophets had refused to speak with Saul, why would a dead prophet do so?

We really do not have to ask ourselves whether God would do that or not. All we need to do is to look at the passage and see that God did it. The spirit of Samuel was raised to speak to Saul and was identified as Samuel all through the passage and even prophesied Saul's death correctly. If you deny what the passage tells us and replace it with what the men who make your JW doctrines tell you, in order to justify their other doctrines.......................something is amiss and you have decided to close your eyes to the Bible and listen to men.

The 'witch of Endor' brought up a spirit who claimed to be Samuel, but no one could see or hear him except the woman. Why did God forbid necromancy to his people? Because wicked spirits used it impersonate the dead and to deceive people into believing that spirits of the dead live on....somewhere. This was the first lie told in Eden to fool the woman.....the devil told her “you surely will not die”.....so when they did, the only way to perpetuate that lie was to deceive people into believing that they had a conscious spirit that left the body to exist in an invisible realm....the details of which are filled in by vivid imaginations....not scripture.

The witch was surprised that a spirit actually did come up.
The passage does not say that the woman was the only one who could hear Samuel, it tell us that Samuel spoke.

1Sam 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

The Bible says that all thought processes cease at death; that once the “spirit” (breath) is extinguished, life ceases. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Psalm 146:4) Resurrection is a restoration of life....God gives back the spirit (breath) that he gave mankind in the first place.

Those passages are speaking about the state of the dead and that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing whether the dead have a spirit part that survives the death of the body. The passages you give do not say that someone goes out of existence. If they do then point out the place. The passages could easily enough be speaking about the state of consciousness of a sleeping person.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

....many mistakes predictions of the end.....

First off, this is off-topic from the OP.

But please, tell me the dates of these “many mistakes predictions of the end”.

Other than 1914, can you give another date definitively predicted about the “end”?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Reply to the OP: NO.

 

[Deeje]

That is avoiding the point I was making about the death of the body not being the death of the soul. If you say that a person is still alive in the memory of God and so the soul is not killed, then that means that nobody can really kill our body since God remembers it. The JW doctrine of death is complete obliteration of the person, everything dies.

The soul dies....because the soul is the living breathing body. We don't "have" a soul....we "are" a soul.
"Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

King David too acknowledge this...that when the spirit "goes out" (extinguished like a candle "goes out") the soul that was kept alive by breathing, ceases to exist except in God's memory.

A soul is a breather.....animals are souls as well as humans.....Solomon lamented that we both die the same death...
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
That is exactly where God told Adam he was going....
Genesis 3:19...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Where is Adam given any promise of a return to life? Where is there mention of a spirit realm where dead souls are kept alive till judgment day? What did the Jews understand "resurrection" to mean? Jesus showed them by bringing the dead back to life. In Lazarus' case the man had been dead 4 days.....his sister said that his body was probably decomposing by then. Yet Lazarus walked out whole, repaired and wondering what happened.

Resurrection is the reuniting of the spiritual to the physical parts of our being. The exact same physical part is not really important because our physical is being renewed all the time and in not the same molecules we had years ago. The point I was making is that if we completely go out of existence at death then God has to "recreate" us. This can only be a copy of us. It would be just as if God made a copy of me now while I still lived, it would be a copy, a copy that thought it was me.

If God can reconstruct a body and implant all the memories, then what more is required for a human to be human. We are created to be mortal flesh. There is no spiritual part of us that lives on....that is a satanic lie designed to perpetuate the idea that we don't really die.....God said we do. It was the devil who said we don't.

 

[Brian2]

What animated Adam’s body was “the breath (spirit) of life”. All souls “breathe”. Animals are also called “souls”. All souls die. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20; Ezekiel 18:4)
Adam only “became” a soul when God started him breathing. When Adam died, God told him that he would "return to the dust" of the earth from which God created him.....no heaven or hell was ever mentioned. Death was simply the opposite of life. Before our conception, we simply did not exist. Where in the Bible does it say otherwise?

Before our conception we did not exist. I agree. Our parts existed however.
The thing is, do you think that the "breathe of life" from God to Adam was no more than what a life saver does when a person drowns? No I don't think you do. So there is something else which God gave more than a few puffs of air. It was life, spirit.
This is the stuff that animates the body and is what gives us consciousness. A physical body, dead matter, cannot be conscious except in a science where spirit and God does not exist as provable things. If I say that the spirit gives us consciousness then I am sort of saying that we are no more than dust. What I am saying is what the Bible tells us, that we, as living souls are dust plus spirit.
When our dust dies, the spirit leaves but is not destroyed, just as Matt 10:28 tells us. When Elisha brought the boy back to life the body soul returned to him. (1Kings 17:21,22)
Our soul is the totality of our being. When we are dead our body is a dead soul and our spirit part is the living part of us and is called our soul, our inner man. There are many passages in the Bible about this.
eg 9 Bible verses about The Inner Man
Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Our spirit is certainly more than just a life force and our soul is certainly more than just our body.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

What a pity that you believe that it was God, who said to 'YOU' in the book of Ecclesiastes, that 'YOU' will never again will you take part in anything that happens in the world, (No resurrection) from the world of the dead to where 'YOU' are going.

You’re quoting from Ecclesiastes 9:10....It doesn’t say, “anything that happens in the world”.
It actually says “under the Sun”.

The “Sun” here, is symbolic. Read Revelation 7:15-17....

15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

It’s taken from Isaiah 49...
8This is what Jehovah says:“In a time of favor I answered you,And in a day of salvation I helped you;I kept safeguarding you to give you as a covenant for the people,To rehabilitate the land,To cause them to possess their desolate inheritances, 9 To say to the prisoners, ‘Come out!’ And to those in the darkness, ‘Show yourselves!’By the roadways they will feed,Along all the worn paths will be their pastures. 10 They will not go hungry, nor will they thirst,Nor will scorching heat or the sun beat down on them. For the One who has mercy on them will lead them,And he will guide them by the springs of water.”

Solomon’s use of the phrase, “under the Sun”, occurs at least 23 times, always used in a negative tone.... some times accompanied by the word “futility”, or “vanity”.
Ravi Zacharius, in explaining the phrase “under the Sun,” said it was a Hebrew idiom meaning, figuratively, "life without God."

This fits; We are to pray for God’s “will” to “be done Earth.” That tells us right there, that God’s will — His purpose — isn’t being done on Earth... yet. Mankind, for the most part, is experiencing Jehovah’s disfavor....the ‘Sun is beating down on them, His scorching heat.’ At the moment.

But once this Earth is cleansed of all the wicked (Psalms 37:10-11), then the Resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous (Acts of the Apostles 24:15) will occur.
No one who has died, will ever be resurrected to life In this system without God, ie., they will never experience living “under the Sun” again!

Once resurrected, they will experience ‘God’s tent with mankind’. — Revelation 21:3-4

 

[Thief]

Oh, and Jesus telling the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day.

my favorite portion of the event

though getting to it was a little harsh

 

[Brian2]

Do you understand that there are two resurrections spoken about in the Bible which are very different? If you read that passage in conjunction with other scripture, rather than in isolation, you will see some interesting details....(this rendering is from a very bad translation IMO.)

1) the dead are “asleep”....not alive somewhere else.

Just as 1Thess 4 tells us, the dead in Christ are brought back when Jesus comes and are then resurrected into a transformed and glorified body. It does not matter in this discussion whether they are conscious or not when brought back. The point is, what is being brought back so that it can be resurrected?

2) those who “sleep in Jesus” are resurrected first. (Revelation 20:6) The “first resurrection” is for those who will join Christ in heaven as ‘kings and priests’. This is a separate resurrection to the one spoken about in John 5:28-29, which is the general resurrection of all who are still in their graves. The Kingdom is a government of God which will rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Those asleep in Jesus are brought back and resurrected. Yes.

3) those whom Jesus “brings with him” at the judgment have already been resurrected but with spiritual bodies even as Jesus was.

Certainly the NT teaches that the dead in Christ will go to be with the Lord (Phil 1:23) but they have not been resurrected at that stage, it is their spiritual souls which are with the Lord. (an example of those souls with Christ--Rev 20:4)
The dead in Christ will be brought back so that they can be resurrected before those who are alive at the coming of Jesus are transformed and taken to be with the Lord. That is what the passage says isn't it.

4) Those who are alive when Jesus returns have no need to sleep, but are resurrected in the spirit (transformed to spirit form) as soon as their physical body dies.

It does not say that they have to wait till they die. It does not say they are transformed to spirit form. We have the same body that Jesus had in His resurrection and as Luke 24 and other parts of the resurrection story tell us it was not spirit form.
Luke 24:39 Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see— for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

5) “the dead in Christ rise first”, which means that the heavenly kingdom is in full operation as our King and his co-rulers, along with the angelic forces, cleanse the earth of all wickedness and bring in the blessings of the Kingdom which Jesus told us to pray for. We are not praying to go to the kingdom, but for that kingdom to “come” to us. (Daniel 2:44) It will not "come" quietly.

The Kingdom has been set up since the time of Jesus. (see Luke 16:16) but it is like the Jews who were in the wilderness going to the promised land. They were still citizens of the promised Kingdom but were not there yet. The fullness of the promised Kingdom will come when Jesus returns for sure.

 

[Brian2]

First off, this is off-topic from the OP.

But please, tell me the dates of these “many mistakes predictions of the end”.

Other than 1914, can you give another date definitively predicted about the “end”?

There are many sites available for this information.
From this site: Unfulfilled Watch Tower Society predictions - Wikipedia

>>>Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society publications have made a series of predictions about Christ's Second Coming and the advent of God's Kingdom, each of which has gone unfulfilled. Almost all the predictions for 1878, 1881, 1914, 1918 and 1925 were later reinterpreted as a confirmation of the eschatological framework of the Bible Student movement and Jehovah's Witnesses, with many of the predicted events viewed as having taken place invisibly. Further expectations were held for the arrival of Armageddon in 1975, but resulted in a later apology to members from the society's leadership.

English researcher George D. Chryssides has argued that although there have been some "unrealized expectations", changes in Watch Tower chronology are attributable more to changed chronological schemes, rather than to failed predictions.[1] The Watch Tower Society has acknowledged errors, which it said helped "sift" the unfaithful from its ranks, but says adherents remained confident that "God's Word" had not failed.[2]<<<

Unfortunately some JWs get sick of the whole thing and not only give up on the Watch Tower Society but also on the Bible.
Some people say that the Watch Tower is a false prophet because of this date setting,,,,,,,,,,,and admittedly the predictions are given in the Watch Tower literature as if they are definite predictions, as in prophesies, but I don't like to say they are false prophecies or false prophets,,,,,,,,,,,wrong prediction dates should be enough to get the point across.
Another thing that happens with the Watch Tower is that old Magazines of theirs are collected and destroyed and their year books (collections of magazines for various years) and other publications are altered to change the evidence of what they have definitely predicted into something less damning.
You should look up Beth Sarim, a property bought by the Watch Tower to house resurrected saints such as Abraham etc

 

[Deeje]

Before our conception we did not exist. I agree. Our parts existed however.

Our parts did? The only way that applies is to understand that the egg that ended up fertilized in the womb of our mothers existed at her birth. The other part that created us was sperm which is produced on a continuous basis by our fathers. Without the uniting of those two necessary components, we would not exist. Parts of the raw materials from which we are made does not make us a soul. It requires all that our genetic makeup produces....and the most vital part is what allows a soul to live....breathing keeps every cell in our body alive and replicating.

We are all unique...there is not another soul who is exactly like us...not even an identical twin. That is why God can remember us in the resurrection. If he can remember every star in the universe and call them by name, a few billion humans ought to be no trouble at all. (Isaiah 40:26)

The thing is, do you think that the "breathe of life" from God to Adam was no more than what a life saver does when a person drowns? No I don't think you do. So there is something else which God gave more than a few puffs of air. It was life, spirit.

Yes, it was indeed unique in Adam's case. That one act delivered life, not only to Adam and his wife but also to every one of their offspring. That spark of life is inherited....what God set in motion gave life to every living thing in much the same way....but according to Solomon, the life and spirit we all have in common, ceases at death....when we return to the dust. Animals and humans die the same death. They cease breathing.

Sleeping in death is no chore....there is no consciousness of the passage of time....no awareness of the things happening in the world so they are sleeping peacefully with nothing to disturb them.

If souls go to heaven to look down at what is happening here on earth, especially to their loved ones, then how could heaven be a place of peace and happiness? I for one am glad that they have no consciousness.

This is the stuff that animates the body and is what gives us consciousness. A physical body, dead matter, cannot be conscious except in a science where spirit and God does not exist as provable things. If I say that the spirit gives us consciousness then I am sort of saying that we are no more than dust. What I am saying is what the Bible tells us, that we, as living souls are dust plus spirit.

I agree that we are souls + spirit...and when that spirit (which is the lifeforce facilitated by breathing) is no longer kept going by the lungs of the soul, you can understand that "the body without spirit is dead"......I just have a different understanding about what constitutes "spirit".
The spirit is not conscious, as the Bible says, 'all thought processes cease at death'. Do spirits need to think?

When our dust dies, the spirit leaves but is not destroyed, just as Matt 10:28 tells us.

A soul is the living breathing creature....a great many of whom are animals are also described as "souls" animated by the same spirit (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20).....so how do you understand that if it is applied to animals? Where does their spirit go? Will animals be in heaven? It is the life of humans that is going to be restored....where will they live? Right back here on earth for the majority, because this is where God designed us to live.

When Elisha brought the boy back to life the body soul returned to him. (1Kings 17:21,22)
Our soul is the totality of our being. When we are dead our body is a dead soul and our spirit part is the living part of us and is called our soul, our inner man. There are many passages in the Bible about this.
eg 9 Bible verses about The Inner Man

The Hebrew word neʹphesh, ("soul") is interchangeable with the word "life". So the widow's son had his "life" restored. God gave him back his breath.

None of those verses speak of a conscious part of us that departs from the body at death.
The inner person is the one God sees....past what is on the surface, to the "innermost thoughts and intentions of the heart".

Hebrews 4:12-13...
"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account."

The power of God's word is a divider of men. It searches deep within a person to discern the spirit (heart intentions) from the flesh (our carnal desires). We can hide nothing of ourselves from the God who searches through us.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Our spirit is certainly more than just a life force and our soul is certainly more than just our body.

Some people think of the soul and the spirit as interchangeable terms for the same thing....scripturally, they are not.

Romans 8:16 is the acknowledgement of God's anointing of those who will join Christ in heaven.
His spirit gives them a deep spiritual connection to him as those who will be granted spiritual life in heaven as 'kings and priests' in his Kingdom. This anointing is not given to all however.
The majority of mankind will live on the earth as subjects of that Kingdom. (Revelation 21:2-4) The fact that they are said to be "kings and priests" demonstrates that they have a specific role....kings need subjects, and priests are there to intercede for sinners. There are no sinners in heaven....and kings do not rule one another.

According to the original Greek of the Bible, the word pneuʹma (spirit) comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,”....and the Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense.
These meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

In English we have "pneumonia" and "pneumatic" both of which refer to things pertaining to air or breathing.

Belief in life after death is a hard idea to put down because we are created to live forever. That "forever" was supposed to be right here on earth, but Adam ruined that for us. We inherited death as a result of his disobedience.....God promised to restore what Adam lost through our redeemer Jesus Christ who paid the price to release us from the grip of sin and take us back to what God purposed in the beginning. There was no heaven or hell in God's first purpose...God's taking a chosen few to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom has been blown out of all proportion by Christendom who have the mistaken notion that they are all heaven bound except the ones whom God consigns to a burning hell forever......that was never even in the picture....nothing even close to it.

You are free to believe as you wish but there is more than one way to translate and interpret scripture....there can only be one right one. Time will tell.

 

[The Anointed]

Our parts did? The only way that applies is to understand that the egg that ended up fertilized in the womb of our mothers existed at her birth. The other part that created us was sperm which is produced on a continuous basis by our fathers. Without the uniting of those two necessary components, we would not exist. Parts of the raw materials from which we are made does not make us a soul. It requires all that our genetic makeup produces....and the most vital part is what allows a soul to live....breathing keeps every cell in our body alive and replicating.

We are all unique...there is not another soul who is exactly like us...not even an identical twin. That is why God can remember us in the resurrection. If he can remember every star in the universe and call them by name, a few billion humans ought to be no trouble at all. (Isaiah 40:26)



Yes, it was indeed unique in Adam's case. That one act delivered life, not only to Adam and his wife but also to every one of their offspring. That spark of life is inherited....what God set in motion gave life to every living thing in much the same way....but according to Solomon, the life and spirit we all have in common, ceases at death....when we return to the dust. Animals and humans die the same death. They cease breathing.

Sleeping in death is no chore....there is no consciousness of the passage of time....no awareness of the things happening in the world so they are sleeping peacefully with nothing to disturb them.

If souls go to heaven to look down at what is happening here on earth, especially to their loved ones, then how could heaven be a place of peace and happiness? I for one am glad that they have no consciousness.



I agree that we are souls + spirit...and when that spirit (which is the lifeforce facilitated by breathing) is no longer kept going by the lungs of the soul, you can understand that "the body without spirit is dead"......I just have a different understanding about what constitutes "spirit".
The spirit is not conscious, as the Bible says, 'all thought processes cease at death'. Do spirits need to think?



A soul is the living breathing creature....a great many of whom are animals are also described as "souls" animated by the same spirit (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20).....so how do you understand that if it is applied to animals? Where does their spirit go? Will animals be in heaven? It is the life of humans that is going to be restored....where will they live? Right back here on earth for the majority, because this is where God designed us to live.


The Hebrew word neʹphesh, ("soul") is interchangeable with the word "life". So the widow's son had his "life" restored. God gave him back his breath.

None of those verses speak of a conscious part of us that departs from the body at death.
The inner person is the one God sees....past what is on the surface, to the "innermost thoughts and intentions of the heart".

Hebrews 4:12-13...
"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account."

The power of God's word is a divider on men. It searches deep within a person to discern the spirit (heart intentions) from the flesh (our carnal desires). We can hide nothing of ourselves from the God who searches through us.



Some people think of the soul and the spirit as interchangeable terms for the same thing....scripturally, they are not.

Romans 8:16 is the acknowledgement of God's anointing of those who will join Christ in heaven.
His spirit gives them a deep spiritual connection to him as those who will be granted spiritual life in heaven as 'kings and priests' in his Kingdom. This anointing is not given to all however.
The majority of mankind will live on the earth as subjects of that Kingdom. (Revelation 21:2-4) The fact that they are said to be "kings and priests" demonstrates that they have a specific role....kings need subjects, and priests are there to intercede for sinners. There are no sinners in heaven....and kings do not rule one another.

According to the original Greek of the Bible, the word pneuʹma (spirit) comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,”....and the Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense.
These meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

In English we have "pneumonia" and "pneumatic" both of which refer to things pertaining to air or breathing.

Belief in life after death is a hard idea to put down because we are created to live forever. That "forever" was supposed to be right here on earth, but Adam ruined that for us. We inherited death as a result of his disobedience.....God promised to restore what Adam lost through our redeemer Jesus Christ who paid the price to release us from the grip of sin and take us back to what God purposed in the beginning. There was no heaven or hell in God's first purpose...God's taking a chosen few to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom has been blown out of all proportion by Christendom who have the mistaken notion that they are all heaven bound except the ones whom God consigns to a burning hell forever......that was never even in the picture....nothing even close to it.

You are free to believe as you wish but there is more than one way to translate and interpret scripture....there can only be one right one. Time will tell.

You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the divine animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe. It is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information or SPIRIT, is gathered.

“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become ‘WHO YOU ARE’, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN]

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”

Then of the Thee in Me who works behind The veil,

I lifted up my hands to find A lamp amid the Darkness;

and I heard, As from Without----

“The Me within Thee is blind.”----- By Omar Khayyam.

When the body in which you [the mind] are being formed, dies, [This is the first death] and your body of “skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc,” has returned to the universal elements from which it was created, all that remains, is a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU, the mind or spirit, that has been imprinted into the universal life force or soul, [The collective consciousness of all that exists] from which it will be resurrected, either in this, or in the next cycle of universal activity.

Depending on whether you belong with the sheep on the right hand of the SON OF MAN, who are to inherit everlasting life, or those on his left, to who He will say; "Away from me, you who are under God's curse. Away to the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Those are they who are revealed in Revelation 21: 8; The cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practise magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

When the unrepentant mind/spirits are divided from the soul, which is the second death (The death of the mind that had developed within the body that had suffered the first death) God will then give those portions of his eternal soul, new bodies in which to develop a new and righteous mind in the new righteous world in which those new Minds will develop.

For the spirit=information that is you, can be divided from the universal soul. Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”

 

[Hockeycowboy]

.....1878, 1881, 1914, 1918 and 1925....

My goodness, that’s scraping the barrel! Actually, 1914 was the only date about the end, but I said that one.

And 1975, was not a definitive date, the brothers were counseled to take a "wait and see" approach.

Regarding a genuine prophet 'saying wrong things'....is that possible?
Well, the Bible gives us an account, at 1 Chronicles 17:1-4. Nathan gave David wrong information. Was it held against him? No, it wasn't. Nathan was just eager and zealous for Jehovah's will to be done. And Jehovah God appreciated that....Nathan was still used as a prophet!

Same with Jehovah's people today. And, through humility and honesty, they are willing to change their understanding on Biblical doctrine as the "light gets brighter." Proverbs 4:18.

 

[The Anointed]

My goodness, that’s scraping the barrel! Actually, 1914 was the only date about the end, but I said that one.

And 1975, was not a definitive date, the brothers were counseled to take a "wait and see" approach.

Regarding a genuine prophet 'saying wrong things'....is that possible?
Well, the Bible gives us an account, at 1 Chronicles 17:1-4. Nathan gave David wrong information. Was it held against him? No, it wasn't. Nathan was just eager and zealous for Jehovah's will to be done. And Jehovah God appreciated that....Nathan was still used as a prophet!

Same with Jehovah's people today. And, through humility and honesty, they are willing to change their understanding on Biblical doctrine as the "light gets brighter." Proverbs 4:18.

Where, with all humility and honesty were the JW willing to admit that their prophecy, of 1975 as being the battle of Armaggedon as the war to end all wars and the beginning of the thousand year rule of Christ

 

[Brian2]

The soul dies....because the soul is the living breathing body. We don't "have" a soul....we "are" a soul.
"Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

Sure a soul dies when "soul" means "person". That is ignoring the other definitions of in lexicons and uses of the word "soul" in the Bible. If the soul dies on the death of the body why does Jesus in Matt 10:28 say otherwise.

King David too acknowledge this...that when the spirit "goes out" (extinguished like a candle "goes out") the soul that was kept alive by breathing, ceases to exist except in God's memory.

There are also other definitions for "spirit" which you seem to ignore. "Spirit" is more than just the breathing of a person.

A soul is a breather.....animals are souls as well as humans.....Solomon lamented that we both die the same death...
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
That is exactly where God told Adam he was going....

Eccles 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

As you can see it helps to read more of the quote sometimes. It shows that there are alternative definitions for the word which can be translated as "spirit". It also shows that there are more options than to return to the dust. The spirit does not return to the dust because it is spirit. The New World Translation says the same. The Bible tells us that man has a spirit. It is a spirit that the Holy Spirit can communicate with our spirit.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
The NWT says the same. (And off topic I know, but you should not be letting men tell you that you are not a child of God if God tells you that you are.)

Genesis 3:19...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Yes we are made from dust and return to dust but that is only part of the story as we have found out.

The soul dies....because the soul is the living breathing body. We don't "have" a soul....we "are" a soul.

You seem to be equating the soul with the body but we know that is not the case. (eg Matt 10:28) If it was the case then the soul would die when the body dies.

Where is Adam given any promise of a return to life? Where is there mention of a spirit realm where dead souls are kept alive till judgment day? What did the Jews understand "resurrection" to mean? Jesus showed them by bringing the dead back to life. In Lazarus' case the man had been dead 4 days.....his sister said that his body was probably decomposing by then. Yet Lazarus walked out whole, repaired and wondering what happened.

We have progressive revelation in the Bible. We do not learn everything about humans and life and death and salvation etc etc in the story of Adam.
And yes Jesus did show them a resurrection with Lazarus and also with His own resurrection. Same in both cases, the person came back to life, body and all. The life came back into the body. As 1Kings !7:22 says, the boys soul returned into him,,,,,,,,,,,,and in this instance soul means life.
The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection nor spirit. They probably realised that without a spirit someone could not be resurrected.

If God can reconstruct a body and implant all the memories, then what more is required for a human to be human. We are created to be mortal flesh. There is no spiritual part of us that lives on....that is a satanic lie designed to perpetuate the idea that we don't really die.....God said we do. It was the devil who said we don't.

We are not fully living humans without our body and spirit. Why do you insist that a soul/spirit that exists in some slumbering state has not gone to death, the place of the dead, sheol, hades? The grave is where the body goes, and sheol/hades is where the spirit part goes. Death is the separation of these parts. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that the spirit goes into non existence at death. The opposite is seen in many parts of the Bible and even in those parts where you point to prove your point about death.
As I have said about resurrection, it is not resurrection unless there is something that is the essence of the person that is carried over and into the new body.
If you are sitting at your computer and God makes you again and sits him down next to you, you know it is not you and is just a copy. Why do you say that if you die and God makes a copy of you that it is more than a copy?