The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[sojourner]

Let me be clear: “most Christian denominations have killed”!
And most christian denominations are trinitarian.

That's incorrect. Most Christian denominations have not killed. The RCC is guilty of its holy wars, its forced conversions, etc. But most denominations have not done that.

What is my ilk? Truth tellers?

No, the cult of JW.

 

[sojourner]

Going back over your first statement there -- that the doctrine says that Jesus is both fully human and fully God already tells me (obviously not you) that something doesn't add up there as far as being equal to the other two persons.

Have you read the doctrine?

 

[sojourner]

The Bible talks about eternal punishment. And eternal life. What do you mean by applying that to, "what's going to happen to Israel, due to the absolute corruption of her theocracy?"

Because the author of Matthew isn't dealing with individual souls -- he's dealing with the "true Israel." According to Matthew, the Religious Authorities of Israel are corrupt. Jesus came to establish the "true Israel" outside of that corrupt authority. It has to do with the soul of Israel -- not the souls of individuals. "Punishment" and "reward" are dispensational judgments lodged by Matthew's author, not cosmological realities.

 

[sojourner]

Therefore -- since you say that nature ofr sin is separation from God, that means -- (I leave the rest open for your answer.)
So do you believe Adam and Eve sinned?

Probably not in the way you mean. The story is lifted from earlier Sumerian mythos. the serpent isn't "Satan." The serpent is wisdom. A & E became wise. That's how they knew they were naked. Wisdom is a godly attribute in the beginning, not a human attribute. A & E crossed that set boundary between humanity and divinity when they attained wisdom. That wisdom has served to lift us to a state where we became capable of making bad choices.

 

[sojourner]

Would you say the majority of those going to war in countries like Germany, England, France, Italy, Poland, Russia, were not claiming to be Christian?

I'd say that the majority of Christians never killed. That was the claim: Most Christian denominations have killed. We're not talking about the percentages of religious affiliation of soldiers. We're talking about religious denominations, themselves.

 

[SLPCCC]

The inference is there for Michael and Jesus being one and the same person....but I find no foundation for believing that God is three equal parts of a trinity "godhead", when Israel knew no such God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

I don't see any inference that Jesus is Michael. You see inference in something that the bible doesn't say, that Jesus is Michael, but you don't see inference in what the bible does say, that Jesus is God.

So far this is what I gathered:


1) According to Historians and Theologians Jesus Uses “I Am” to refer himself to God

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple

2) Jesus is called “God” in the scriptures with a Capital “G”

• Isaiah 9:6 "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

3) Thomas calls Jesus Lord and God

• John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

4) Paul calls Jesus God and Savior

• Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

5) Peter calls Jesus God, Lord, and Savior

• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

6) Scripture says Jesus created all things and the God created all things by Himself and all alone

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7) God is called “Mighty God” and Jesus is called “Mighty God”

• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 it says … remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.

• At: Jeremiah 32:18 O great and mighty God.

• At: Zephaniah 3:17). Who is this mighty one?

8) God calls Jesus “God”

• At Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9) History confirms the first century Christians believed that Jesus was God

• Professor Bart Ehrman of Religious Studies at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. “Jesus in the Gospel of John makes a series of stunning declarations about himself, in which he indicates that he existed in eternity past in the glory of God and that he himself is equal with God.”

• Historian, David Brakke, Chair in the History of Christianity and a Professor of History “The concept of creation through the Word is inspired by how God creates in Genesis—by speaking. In John, the Word has become not merely God’s speech, but a being in his own right—a being who both is God and is with God.”

• "...The church ... also believed with the first simple Christians that Jesus Christ was God on earth." (Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins, p339 p. 339 on p. 336 it reads, "The beginning of the doctrine of the Trinity appears already in John."

It seems to me that to understand these scriptures you have to understand the trinity, otherwise, you won't understand them.

 

[SLPCCC]

*** I found that the teaching about the Trinity being created in the 3rd to 4th century is a completely false claim. Is there any evidence that proves otherwise? If not, let it be known. People are being misled.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I'm aware that Professor Bart Ehrman of Religious Studies says that Matthew, Mark, and Luke do not teach anything about Jesus being God. The early churches did not have the bible. Some churches only had 1 or two of the synoptic gospels if any. Not having all of the scriptures together caused problems. We see this in Paul's writings. For example, Ebionites did not follow Paul but followed James. Many of the poor jews did not know how to read. So they were going by what they were being told. So, to answer your question, No. The synoptic gospels by themselves do not teach the trinity as far as I know.

In OT Bible there is also personified Wisdom (but only as poetic expression) and Spirit of God (but also not as one more divine person).

Educated Hellenistic Jews (like Philo from Alexandria) adopted some Greek philosophy. This is the direct influence for Christ as prehuman creative Son/Logos (Paul and GofJohn).

See: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html

Jesus and his followers were originally part of Judaism - “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Paul expanded Christianity with some adaptations to pagan world. When Christianity gradually moved away from Judaism, gentile Christianity prevailed.

More: Split of Early Christianity and Judaism - Wikipedia

 

[firedragon]

*** I found that the teaching about the Trinity being created in the 3rd to 4th century is a completely false claim. Is there any evidence that proves otherwise? If not, let it be known. People are being misled.

I find your statement not clear. You contend that the Trinity was created in the 4th century or earlier?

 

[SLPCCC]

I find your statement not clear. You contend that the Trinity was created in the 4th century or earlier?

Some bible teachers teach that the word "trinity" and the belief of the trinity was created by bishops in the 4th century. This is false.

 

[SLPCCC]

The trinity does not mean that God is both one and three in the same sense or relationship. It means that God is one and only one in His essense (God, Being) but three in His persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Person and essence are not the same. Person reveals who He is (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), and essence refers to what He is (God, Creator). When Jesus prayed to the Father, It was the person (Jesus) praying to the Father but not the Father praying to the Father. When Jesus died, it was his father and the Holy Spirit that resurrected him although it was really his body that died not his spirit. When Jesus (God) calls the Father my God, it is the person calling the other person but both are the same Being. This is how we can understand the scriptures.

 

[firedragon]

Some bible teachers teach that the word "trinity" and the belief of the trinity was created by bishops in the 4th century. This is false.

Which Bible teacher teaches that the "word trinity" and "THE BELIEF" was created by "Which Bishops" in the 4th century and why are they false?

Can you be specific brother?

 

[SLPCCC]

In OT Bible there is also personified Wisdom (but only as poetic expression) and Spirit of God (but also not as one more divine person).

Educated Hellenistic Jews (like Philo from Alexandria) adopted some Greek philosophy. This is the direct influence for Christ as prehuman creative Son/Logos (Paul and GofJohn).

See: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html

Jesus and his followers were originally part of Judaism - “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Paul expanded Christianity with some adaptations to pagan world. When Christianity gradually moved away from Judaism, gentile Christianity prevailed.

More: Split of Early Christianity and Judaism - Wikipedia

Thank you, I'll go through them.

 

[SLPCCC]

Which Bible teacher teaches that the "word trinity" and "THE BELIEF" was created by "Which Bishops" in the 4th century and why are they false?

Can you be specific brother?

No. Perhaps some of the JWs or the LDS can go further in another thread.

 

[firedragon]

No. Perhaps some of the JWs or the LDS can go further in another thread.

Peace.

 

[SLPCCC]

If God put everything at Jesus' feet, it surely shows (me) that God--the God of Jesus--is GREATER than he, Jesus, is. Yes, the God of Jesus, gave him great power and authority in time. That again tells me the two are not equal, but that what Jesus said at John 14:28 ("The Father is greater than I am.") is true, and will be true, forever. The love that Jesus showed for the Father is thrilling and wonderful.

Jesus and the Father are not the same persons. When Jesus says, "The Father is greater than I am", it is true. There were things that he said he didn't know only the father. Jesus was born as a human. He was the Word and the Word became flesh. As a human he was limited. But when he died, he was lifted up and the father was able to give him the kingdom because they are two different persons. But still, one Being. Two-persons but one essence. The scriptures make more sense once you understand this.

 

[YoursTrue]

I disagree. Now what?


Because there's not one story of Jesus picking up anything DeWalt and building anything besides a fan base.

Mark 6:3 Then they scoffed, “He’s just a carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon. And his sisters live right here among us.” They were deeply offended and refused to believe in him.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus and the Father are not the same persons. When Jesus says, "The Father is greater than I am", it is true. There were things that he said he didn't know only the father. Jesus was born as a human. He was the Word and the Word became flesh. As a human he was limited. But when he died, he was lifted up and the father was able to give him the kingdom because they are two different persons. But still, one Being. Two-persons but one essence. The scriptures make more sense once you understand this.

I understand what you mean. But I don't see that in any shape, or form, that it means the two are equal. or one being. But ok, I'm going to leave it at that now.

 

[YoursTrue]

That's still not "most Christians."

The armies were mostly filled with those claiming to be Christian. It's been interesting talking to you, but I see now you do not really want to admit that the churches have mostly supported war (and the Trinity doctrine) especially after Constantine.
Many people claiming to be Christians in these countries were women and children, old people and infirm. They were not inducted into the armies at that time. The populations of the European countries and the U.S. during WWI and 2 were largely "Christian" Are you gong to say that's not true? Those wars were fought by those who claimed to be Christian, one killing the other and beyond. The armies were filled with those claiming to be Christians. Are you saying, too, that is not true? Is that another thought like Jesus being a carpenter is like a fairy tale?

 

[SLPCCC]

I understand what you mean. But I don't see that in any shape, or form, that it means the two are equal. or one being. But ok, I'm going to leave it at that now.

1) Who resurrected Jesus from the dead?

• The Father - Rom 10: 9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
• The Son - John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
• And The Holy Spirit - Rom 8: 9-11 - You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. . . If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Answer: All three raised Jesus.


2) In whose name were they to be baptized?

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Answer: Notice that it says, "in the name" and not "in the names" plural. It points to the fact that they are in some sense one.