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God And Homosexuality

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
This is just wrong:

"You haven't established that gay sex is a sin, except that you holy book says so."

How can we establish that anything is a sin via secular sources?

Great question! One of the reasons why I don't accept the concept any longer.

Also, please stop judging me without knowledge. I went to high school on the border of Greenwich Village and have gay friends and family.

"I have a black friend" does not impress me. I didnt judge you, I judged what you said. You believe things that are simply unfounded about my community.

The life is harmful and you're in some pain

That's true - the pain I'm in is being told hurtful things that aren't true about myself and my LGBTQ brothers and sisters by people like you.

--unless you suppress your conscience and what is revealed to you about God, who loves us both. The Bible explains how you and I both either allow God in our knowledge and hearts or suppress Him.

Your attempted guilt trip is noted, and won't work.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Nope. Mainstream churches don't approve of gay sex or gay marriage. Just the ones who have turned politically correct (liberal churches) approve of the sin.
I don't know what you think a mainstream church is, but it's generally-accepted that the RCC, ECUSA, PUSA, ELCA, UMC, DOC, UCC, Lutheran Missouri Synod, and American Baptists are all mainstream. Most of them approve.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
1) Reaffirmed marriage is between a male and female, He spoke about Adam and Eve
first, Jesus was a product of his culture. When he spoke of marriage, he spoke from what the culture knew. Since the culture was unaware of sexual orientation, Jesus couldn't speak to anything different.
Second, Jesus never said one thing about homosexuality. Not one. He never even mentioned same-sex acts at all. So, to say "Jesus said blah-blah-blah" is disingenuous.

2) Inspired both testaments, so when I read Paul, for example, I get "Jesus said"
I think that's disingenuous. There are Jesus quotes, and then there is everything else. In order to have a pure reading, we can only say, "Paul is quoted as saying yadda yadda..." to blur that is just bad scholarship, because it puts in place an unnecessary and unwanted bias of the reading.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What does systemic violence have to do with what you practice in private, or what I practice in private?
Because we live in a society. This isn't about "what we do," it's about who we are. And who we are is reflected by our fellows. One's sexual orientation isn't just some hobby we can pick up and lay down. It's a HUGE part of our self-identity -- it's … who we are. Those who identify as homosexual are in a minority -- and it's historically been a minority without a voice and without any social power. In most states, it's still OK to discriminate against those who identify as homosexual. When those in the majority -- and those who wield power -- speak out in judgment against homosexuality, it dehumanizes those who identify as such. It claims that their very identity as human beings is invalid. It does not allow them an identity and an expression that lets them be fully and wholly human. It claims that who they are is somehow "broken." Dehumanization in this way is a form of violence. It's the same kind of dehumanization perpetrated upon blacks, treating them as "less than human, or, at best, "lesser humans." It's violence because it represents an attack of the powerful against those who are not allowed to have a voice. It's violence because it emotionally (and many times physically, as we saw recently in Minneapolis) damages people. It's systemic because the social power structure supports it.

Science has determined that homosexuality is a normal and healthy expression of humanity. It does not appear as an "aberration" or "Illness" in the DSM-IV. Therefore, the majority social power structure is wrong in speaking out, in acting out, in discriminating, singling out, and claiming that those who identify as homosexual are in any way different or less than others.

The Bible is the best indicator of the nature of . . . " all things pertaining to life, sin and righteousness.
Homosexuality isn't sin. The bible never speaks about homosexuality. The bible is not the best indicator of what is and is not "normal" physically, psychologically, medically.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
I don't know what you think a mainstream church is, but it's generally-accepted that the RCC, ECUSA, PUSA, ELCA, UMC, DOC, UCC, Lutheran Missouri Synod, and American Baptists are all mainstream. Most of them approve.

If they endorse gay marriage then they're UNBIBLICAL. Gay sex / gay marriage are sins. Any church endorsing sin is more a synagogue of Satan than a church of Jesus Christ.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
If they endorse gay marriage then they're UNBIBLICAL.
If they oppose slavery then they're UNBIBLICAL.

I find it obvious that scriptural morality is primitive, even evil sometimes. But if you stick to Jesus what you'll find is stuff like:

"Love your God
Love your neighbor.
The rest is details."

And
"The Beatitudes."

And
"What you do for the Least you do for Me."

Things like that.

Too bad Christians don't find Jesus so inspiring, and go with Paul and Moses when they're more convenient.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Gay sex / gay marriage are sins.
Why would I care about sin?
I care very much about morality.

By morality I mean recognition that we must treat each other well for our own benefit. By sin I mean breaking rules created by primitive people thousands of years ago.

Why would I care about sin? Why should I care about your opinions concerning behavior that you know little about?
Tom
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
If they endorse gay marriage then they're UNBIBLICAL.
How do you figure, since the bible says 0, zip, nada, bupkis, nothing, with regard to homosexuality? And if one thinks one sees it mentioned, one is wearing bigot-colored glasses. That means that your bias and your devaluing of human life is what's "UNBIBLICAL" -- (Thanks for shouting at me, BTW), since the bible speaks out against both. Do you really think it's worth going there over your mistaken read of the bible?

Gay sex / gay marriage are sins.
How do you figure? 1) Gay sex isn't mentioned in the bible, and if … (see above). 2) Marriage is marriage. Marriage is neither gay nor straight. Only people can be gay or straight. People have sexual orientations. Marriage does not. Therefore, your "sin" is nonexistent. Furthermore, churches endorse marriage as the only "honorable estate" among two people who love each other. Surely you're not saying that marriage is a bad thing?! Are you really prepared to condemn and dehumanize some over a nonexistent sin?

Any church endorsing sin is more a synagogue of Satan than a church of Jesus Christ.
I'm not aware of any churches "endorsing sin." Wait! Yes I am! Westboro Baptist Church endorses a sin -- the sin of systemic violence.

Although, I have to admit: "Synagogue of Satan" would be a great name for a shock rock band... The band mates could wear matching red outfits, have lots of pyrotechnics, play B.C. Rich guitars, wear ghoulish makeup, have cool stage names like "Dimebag Darrell" and "Marilyn Manson," have a singer with really long hair hanging over his face yell raspily and unintelligibly into a microphone, use skeletons wearing party hats as stage props, and damage the hearing of America's youth. Yeah! That would be KEWL!!! And not in the least "gay!!"


Nobody's buying what your posts are selling.




Except the part about the kewl band!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Nope. Any church endorsing gay sex / gay marriage is a perversion of the true church of Jesus Christ.
I must have missed the part where Jesus said, "You must judge, condemn, and commit systemic violence against your neighbor."


And the part where Jesus said, "Gay = yukky."
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus was IMHO not merely man, but God, King and Savior. He doesn't need sex or anything else "we animals" can't "help but do" to feel alive, fulfilled, blessed.
This is really terrible theology. Human sex drive =/= "being animals." Theologically, sex and fulfillment are equated with each other. have you ever read Song of Solomon??
 

Mitty

Active Member
I believe I'm repeating now for the fourth (?) time to you--but I'll rephrase now--Jesus was abstinent on earth, waiting for His bride, the church. Fornication/premarital sex isn't appropriate in either testament.

Jesus was IMHO not merely man, but God, King and Savior. He doesn't need sex or anything else "we animals" can't "help but do" to feel alive, fulfilled, blessed.

I encourage you to consider that God is higher than us and His ways less base and craven. We were made in God's image!
What is premarital sex, given that a biblical marriage is simply a personal agreement between two people to shack up together and doesn't require a legally signed marriage contract or a wedding celebrant or witnesses? Which is why Abraham shacked up with his sister Sarah.

And well may that be your "honest opinion", but Jesus didn't claim to be a god, nor to be without sin (Mark 10:18), nor to be a saviour, nor to have sex with a church since he loved one of his disciples. He only claimed to be a prophet even though his own family (including his mother and her husband) didn't believe him (Matt 13:55-58 John 7:5). And he unsuccessfully appealed for help from his god when he was being executed by the Romans for sedition and mocked as the "King of the Jews", which is hardly a god-like trait.
 
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Mitty

Active Member
1) Anal sex/oral sex, etc. is permissible for married couples--sex is to fulfill desire without causing emotional or physical harm

2) It's not logically anal sex since it is shameful acts, acts being plural, more than one act
None of that changes the fact that the bible says absolutely nothing about female homosexuality, and only refers to anal sex of women and men (Romans 1:26-27 Leviticus 18 & 20).

And where does the bible say that anal sex is permissible and that anal sex is the "natural use of the woman" (Romans 1:26-27), or did you just make that up too?
And what is the difference between a male or female anus apart from being a contraceptive device?

3) Eunuchs in the Ancient Near East were physically unable to have intercourse--asexual people can be devoted to God as Christians and do more ministry with less distraction than marrieds
NONSENSE. the word eunuch means bedchamber attendant and has nothing what-so-ever to do with their sexual abilities.

And are you claiming that homosexual clergymen are eunuchs and particularly if they remain celibate. And if so, was Jesus a eunuch too and why he asked his followers to accept that some men do not marry because they are so born from their mothers' wombs (Matt 19:12) and why he loved one of his disciples and not a wife?

4) Can you think of how Phillip might have said, "What do you do in your homeland?" and heard, "I was set apart to be a eunuch to wait on my monarch?" rather than groping him?

We are made in God's image, and you'll do better with both testaments if you can keep your mind pure. I'm a fallen person with a strong sex drive and strong lusts, and I'm with you in wanting to put aside desire to get to pure knowledge and love in life--for the times when I'm studying the Bible.
Was Queen Candace's bedchamber attendant a homosexual and is that why Philip groped him in his chariot (Acts 8:27-29)?
 
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Mitty

Active Member
Jesus:

1) Reaffirmed marriage is between a male and female, He spoke about Adam and Eve

2) Inspired both testaments, so when I read Paul, for example, I get "Jesus said"
So why did Jesus love one of his disciples instead of a wife? And is that why he said nothing about homosexuality?
 

Mitty

Active Member
Nope. Any church endorsing gay sex / gay marriage is a perversion of the true church of Jesus Christ.
That's only your personal opinion, given that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality and why he loved one of his disciples instead of a wife.
 

Mitty

Active Member
If they endorse gay marriage then they're UNBIBLICAL. Gay sex / gay marriage are sins. Any church endorsing sin is more a synagogue of Satan than a church of Jesus Christ.
Where does the bible say that, or did you just make that up? Either way, it still doesn't change the fact that the head of the Anglican Church supports same-sex marriage and even signed it in to law?
 
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