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The Good, the Bad and God

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
A human of ordinary decency would make sensible efforts along those lines. In my view God ought to behave with ordinary decency but there's no evidence that [he] does, so it would be foolish to expect it, which means the answer is, no. Likewise, as I understand it, [he] doesn't need to do anything, so again, no.
Sounds a little like a politically correct answer.

Ok.. if your answer is that He doesn't have to stop a person, then, yes, I believe He knew what He was going to do.

Now tell me, how do you define "truth"? What test do you use to decide whether a statement is true or not?

In your view, did God at the time Jephthah made his vow already know it entailed the death of the daughter or not.

In your personal morality, do you approve of invasive war, massacres of populations, human sacrifice, women as property, slavery, religious intolerance or any of them and if so which?

Do you live your life according to your answers?

Truth, as I view it (besides Jesus being The Truth, The Way and The Life), is that which cannot be changed.

As far as your questions:

"Invasive wars" - depends... we invaded German and Japan to stop the war. To start a war just to grab land, I wouldn't approve. I'm sure Japan thought we were invasive during WWII but America wouldn't. Your view?

Massacres of population - that could be taken as a play on words. We dropped two bombs on Japan and killed a mass population. Our definition of "stopping a war" is another persons massacre. Your view?

Human sacrifice - that depends. I don't believe in the essence of "human sacrifice" yet hold on to being able to sacrifice my life for another. Your view?

Women as property. My wife is my wife and you better not mess with her. Is that what you mean?

Slavery. Modern day slavery definition - no. However, many are still slaves to the people they owe. 21% interest on credit cards is extortion and a modern day slave market. OT - slavery isn't the same definition.

Religious intolerance - if human sacrifice is required... I am intolerant. Your view?
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No, I didn't. You had chapter and verse at all times.

Politically correct answer. Yes... chapter and verse is correct but you mislead on your replies... and we have 3 people who can testify to that fact and in a court of law, you would be judged guilty as charged. :)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Politically correct answer. Yes... chapter and verse is correct but you mislead on your replies... and we have 3 people who can testify to that fact and in a court of law, you would be judged guilty as charged. :)
Not with a jury of my peers, I wouldn't ...

But in fact it can scarcely mean anything else than mass rape in context. The women are shared out among the victorious troops, no question of consent arises, and such events as an incident of warfare have a very long history.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sounds a little like a politically correct answer.

Ok.. if your answer is that He doesn't have to stop a person, then, yes, I believe He knew what He was going to do.
That leaves us with the peculiar pictures that God will agree to give you victory over your enemy in return for a human sacrifice. That's no doubt how things worked in the Bronze Age, but I find the idea, as I said, morally vile, living as I do in 2020. So either God's changed [his] mind on the matter (as [he] did in the memorable dickering scene with Abraham (Genesis 18:23-33) and as [he] gradually did, at least in the First World, starting back in the late 18th cent. about slavery ─ or [he] hasn't.

I'm aware that some believers give God the adjective 'unchanging', but the bible offers little support for that eg as we watch Yahweh start out as a tribal god among tribal gods, then emerge from the Babylonian captivity as a monogod; then we branch to Christianity where Paul throws the covenant out along with the Chosen People title, to the fourth century when the Trinity doctrine is invented, to the diversity of views in the present, not overlooking the Mormons or the Rastas.

Of course, this thread is about Bronze Age values being (a) those of God and (b) thus unchanging, a view held by some but not all Christians.
Truth, as I view it (besides Jesus being The Truth, The Way and The Life), is that which cannot be changed.
Hmm. But it's true that the bus is scheduled to leave at 5.45 and it's also true they may change the schedule.
To start a war just to grab land, I wouldn't approve.
I agree. But the British in particular and the Spanish and French in general shaped our present world by doing just that. (I'm vastly more sensitive to the problems of indigenous cultures than I was when younger. The present US riots are a problem that intersects with that.)
I'm sure Japan thought we were invasive during WWII but America wouldn't. Your view?
The Japanese were actively creating an empire in Asia, which they called the East Asian Co-Prosperity Zone. They were able to claim locally that they were freeing countries from European colonial rule (British, French, Dutch), but their aggression was based on a militaristic ethic that had grown steadily more rabid since WW1 and it's very hard to consider them liberators rather than exploitative conquerors. We touched on the Rape of Nanking earlier. The strategic thinking behind the Pearl Harbor strike was to destroy the US fleet, knowing that it would be replaced, but gambling that success would buy them a year or more to secure holdings, not least in what's now Indonesia for its oil, but also sources of iron ore, minerals, coal, wood, food and more. and peace negotiations could perhaps follow. It didn't work. They lost at Midway, the Coral Sea was a tactical draw but a strategic loss, and after that US sea air and land power was such that it was all down hill from there. By mid-1943 they could no longer expect to win. However, their ethos in defeat was to die, not surrender, One lesson US ground forces learnt early in the pivotal Guadalcanal campaign was when US medics after an engagement who went to assist Japanese wounded were killed when the wounded man set of a grenade, killing them both. This outlook ─ I'd call it fanaticism ─ of dying for the Emperor, became even more rigid as the Japanese military situation grew worse. Wikipedia says:

The Japanese planned an all-out defense of Kyūshū, with little left in reserve for any subsequent defense operations. Four veteran divisions were withdrawn from the Kwantung Army in Manchuria in March 1945 to strengthen the forces in Japan, and 45 new divisions were activated between February and May 1945. Most were immobile formations for coastal defense, but 16 were high quality mobile divisions. In all, there were 2.3 million Japanese Army troops prepared to defend the home islands, backed by a civilian militia of 28 million men and women. Casualty predictions varied widely, but were extremely high. The Vice Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy General Staff, Vice Admiral Takijirō Ōnishi, predicted up to 20 million Japanese deaths.
The US initially estimated their own losses in such an invasion as 130,000 to 220,000 casualties, with 25,000 to 46,000 deaths.However, when their intelligence learnt of the Japanese preparations, the figures were revised in at least one major report to between 1.7 and 4 million casualties with 400,000 to 800,000 dead, Japanese fatalities were estimated at 5 to 10 million.

The two atomic bombs directly killed 150,000 to 220,000 people between them. The number of subsequent deaths from radiation effects is apparently unknown. It brought about the Japanese surrender in very short order.

Truman was faced with a real-life Trolley problem ─ do nothing and kill millions, or act and kill only a quarter of a million. He chose to act. A great many more people were subsequently still alive after the war than might otherwise have been the case.
Human sacrifice - that depends. I don't believe in the essence of "human sacrifice" yet hold on to being able to sacrifice my life for another. Your view?
This is the case based on ritual sacrifice of a human or animal to God or the gods. As I think I mentioned, it was a common practice in that era. I can't distinguish it from wilful murder.
Women as property. My wife is my wife and you better not mess with her. Is that what you mean?
I promise not to mess with your wife. However I dare say her reasons for preferring to live in the First World in the 21st century than in some Bronze Age country include the improved status of women ─ compared even to, say, the 1950s.
Slavery. Modern day slavery definition - no. However, many are still slaves to the people they owe. 21% interest on credit cards is extortion and a modern day slave market. OT - slavery isn't the same definition.
You may be implying that slavery wasn't so bad back in biblical days, or you may not; but if you are, it covered a wide range where if you were of the gentry you could declare bankruptcy and do a term as a (useful, generally well housed and fed) slave; or you could be down the scale and end up in the galleys or the salt mines, quite literally. From memory, in the bible slavery rules you can beat your slaves, and you're only responsible if death results within 24 hours, and otherwise you're not.

As for level playing fields, equal opportunity, optimized public education, abolition of debt traps, an end to plutocracy, I'm all for it, all round the world.

Religious intolerance - if human sacrifice is required... I am intolerant. Your view?[/QUOTE] I don't like fundamentalism. Otherwise, unlike say Dawkins, I don't believe belonging to a religion is of itself a bad thing. If you act with decency and respect and inclusion to your fellow humans it doesn't matter whether you're religious or not.

(None of that dilutes the pleasures of the RF debate boards, of course.)
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That leaves us with the peculiar pictures that God will agree to give you victory over your enemy in return for a human sacrifice. That's no doubt how things worked in the Bronze Age, but I find the idea, as I said, morally vile, living as I do in 2020. So either God's changed [his] mind on the matter (as [he] did in the memorable dickering scene with Abraham (Genesis 18:23-33) and as [he] gradually did, at least in the First World, starting back in the late 18th cent. about slavery ─ or [he] hasn't.

Yes... but that is your interpretation...

Let's look at this differently--assuming that He knew that the man was going to make the decision.
  1. He knows that the man is going to make a stupid vow that is against his own daughter even though God is saying don't do this.
  2. He also knows that this man is the only man that will bring deliverance to the nation of Israel to prevent tens of thousands of deaths by the enemy. If He doesn't act, tens of thousands of innocent people will die
  3. He also knows that this daughter will be forever in His presence.
WWII Atomic bomb situation.

Did you have a better Idea?

I deem abortion a human sacrifice too--just modern day human sacrificing. Just as they have reasoned it "OK" in today's society, man reasoned human sacrifices "OK" in their time.

I'm aware that some believers give God the adjective 'unchanging', but the bible offers little support for that eg as we watch Yahweh start out as a tribal god among tribal gods, then emerge from the Babylonian captivity as a monogod; then we branch to Christianity where Paul throws the covenant out along with the Chosen People title, to the fourth century when the Trinity doctrine is invented, to the diversity of views in the present, not overlooking the Mormons or the Rastas.

Of course, this thread is about Bronze Age values being (a) those of God and (b) thus unchanging, a view held by some but not all Christians.
Lot's of opinions.

I can see what man does... but where is the proof that God did all the changes?

Hmm. But it's true that the bus is scheduled to leave at 5.45 and it's also true they may change the schedule.

So, in reality, you have stated facts but not truth. Which is a good example of what I was trying to convey :)

I agree. But the British in particular and the Spanish and French in general shaped our present world by doing just that. (I'm vastly more sensitive to the problems of indigenous cultures than I was when younger. The present US riots are a problem that intersects with that.)

It seems like we changing the subject unless I misunderstood (which I am capable of doing) I agree that British, French, Spanish, Romans, English, Greeks et. al. have all done it for land grabbing reasons. Maybe not all the times, but certainly all have done it.

The Japanese were actively creating an empire in Asia, which they called the East Asian Co-Prosperity Zone. They were able to claim locally that they were freeing countries from European colonial rule (British, French, Dutch), but their aggression was based on a militaristic ethic that had grown steadily more rabid since WW1 and it's very hard to consider them liberators rather than exploitative conquerors. We touched on the Rape of Nanking earlier. The strategic thinking behind the Pearl Harbor strike was to destroy the US fleet, knowing that it would be replaced, but gambling that success would buy them a year or more to secure holdings, not least in what's now Indonesia for its oil, but also sources of iron ore, minerals, coal, wood, food and more. and peace negotiations could perhaps follow. It didn't work. They lost at Midway, the Coral Sea was a tactical draw but a strategic loss, and after that US sea air and land power was such that it was all down hill from there. By mid-1943 they could no longer expect to win. However, their ethos in defeat was to die, not surrender, One lesson US ground forces learnt early in the pivotal Guadalcanal campaign was when US medics after an engagement who went to assist Japanese wounded were killed when the wounded man set of a grenade, killing them both. This outlook ─ I'd call it fanaticism ─ of dying for the Emperor, became even more rigid as the Japanese military situation grew worse. Wikipedia says:

The Japanese planned an all-out defense of Kyūshū, with little left in reserve for any subsequent defense operations. Four veteran divisions were withdrawn from the Kwantung Army in Manchuria in March 1945 to strengthen the forces in Japan, and 45 new divisions were activated between February and May 1945. Most were immobile formations for coastal defense, but 16 were high quality mobile divisions. In all, there were 2.3 million Japanese Army troops prepared to defend the home islands, backed by a civilian militia of 28 million men and women. Casualty predictions varied widely, but were extremely high. The Vice Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy General Staff, Vice Admiral Takijirō Ōnishi, predicted up to 20 million Japanese deaths.
The US initially estimated their own losses in such an invasion as 130,000 to 220,000 casualties, with 25,000 to 46,000 deaths.However, when their intelligence learnt of the Japanese preparations, the figures were revised in at least one major report to between 1.7 and 4 million casualties with 400,000 to 800,000 dead, Japanese fatalities were estimated at 5 to 10 million.

The two atomic bombs directly killed 150,000 to 220,000 people between them. The number of subsequent deaths from radiation effects is apparently unknown. It brought about the Japanese surrender in very short order.

Truman was faced with a real-life Trolley problem ─ do nothing and kill millions, or act and kill only a quarter of a million. He chose to act. A great many more people were subsequently still alive after the war than might otherwise have been the case.

This is GRRRREAT!

Now... if you would do the same type of studies in what happened in Israel's initial beginning, you just might have the light turned on. :)

This is the case based on ritual sacrifice of a human or animal to God or the gods. As I think I mentioned, it was a common practice in that era. I can't distinguish it from wilful murder.

Like I said... God did not support human sacrifice. He does, however, support the right for a man or woman to give up her life sacrificially for the benefit of others. Many a man and woman have died in lieu of seeing their children get hurt.

I promise not to mess with your wife. However I dare say her reasons for preferring to live in the First World in the 21st century than in some Bronze Age country include the improved status of women ─ compared even to, say, the 1950s.

OK... no argument here. Certainly, in Christianity, there is neither male nor female but are equal in spiritual authority. Mentally (intellectually) they are also just as capable. Leading and administrating, just as able. I don't think man can have a baby like a woman can. :)

You may be implying that slavery wasn't so bad back in biblical days, or you may not; but if you are, it covered a wide range where if you were of the gentry you could declare bankruptcy and do a term as a (useful, generally well housed and fed) slave; or you could be down the scale and end up in the galleys or the salt mines, quite literally. From memory, in the bible slavery rules you can beat your slaves, and you're only responsible if death results within 24 hours, and otherwise you're not.

As for level playing fields, equal opportunity, optimized public education, abolition of debt traps, an end to plutocracy, I'm all for it, all round the world.

Religious intolerance - if human sacrifice is required... I am intolerant. Your view?

I am not implying anything other than saying "slavery" as defined today is not the same as "slavery" as defined in Israel's time.

Likewise, I deem that today's slavery in the area of principal plus interest--60 years ago was deemed usury and punishable by law (my era).

I agree with equal opportunity, optimized public education but equal recompense (If you don't study, you don't get a free pass), abolition of debt tramps, and an end to plutocracy (as long as that doesn't translate that a wealthy person can rule because then we violate equal opportunity).


I don't like fundamentalism. Otherwise, unlike say Dawkins, I don't believe belonging to a religion is of itself a bad thing. If you act with decency and respect and inclusion to your fellow humans it doesn't matter whether you're religious or not.

(None of that dilutes the pleasures of the RF debate boards, of course.)

:)

You are OK, in my book!

I completely agree that decency and respect should be extended to all fellow humans, including decency and respect for the differences in religion.

So we have quite a few things we can agree on and be respectful in those that we don't. :)

Do have a great rest of your day (and I mean that sincerely)!
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Except for Jephthah's daughter, of course. The seven sons of Saul were presumably all adults by the time they were impaled before the Lord, but they were killed in their capacity as sons. Same for Jesus.

(I've added more explanation of things I usually don't explain, but here is needed)

Two things, first a key point that can help many, then the main answer to your issue

1) Giving us actual freedom, God has allowed us to chose our actions, meaning not only good or neutral actions, but because of freedom, also wrong/evil actions.

It's very straightforward -- we can do evil actions, because we have actual freedom (not only an appearance of freedom). The consequences for an accumulation of evil actions can happen in this life, and/or possibly after this life, for many.

Still, we don't now the fate of the 7 of the house of Saul --

* -> I think one thing that trips up unbelievers over and over and over in the texts is that unbelievers tend to assume (often just without thinking how it affects an overall situation) that death of this mortal body is the final death.

A key assumption, sometimes used without the person realizing they are relying on it for their conclusions.


So that when someone dies, many non believers just assume that's it, over, and nothing more.

But scriptures (the very text you are using here!...) says the opposite happens --

The same text you are using for your judgments says that when this body passes, then all the innocent, the forgiven, the redeemed, and even seeming many hearing the gospel of Christ for the first time after death (1rst Peter 3:18-20), will gain eternal life.

That's why the beginning of that chapter in 2 Samuel on this -- an evil house being destroyed (but for the less evil grandson), isn't the last of the story for those 7.... We do not know their ultimate fate.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I'm familiar with that position, It necessarily involves a god who is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

It also indicates that God didn't know what [he] was doing, had no plan in mind, when [he] created the universe.
No, none of those conclusions logically follow (unless you add extra presumptions/belief that many or most people don't accept).

Omniscience reasonably means seeing all that is, pretense tense, and knowing what direction things are moving in, if they do not change course. God could have this omniscience (we understand He does!), and choose, reasonably, and fitting the text just as well or better, to make us able to sometimes be unpredictable in our choices. None of this complexity would prevent Him from being able to later intervene anyway and cause outcomes He decides for certain things. So, you've got some things to examine more on that, yourself. I think I abandoned the clockwork Universe idea way back in my 20s, dues to results in physics making that full physics determinism look questionable. Full determinism is also just unneeded to explain any results in physics to my awareness. Macro stability follows from statistical averaging of large ensembles.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
If God is omniscient, [he] knows how to proceed so that there's repenting. If [he]'s omnipotent, then if [he] wants repenting [he]'ll get repenting....

Unless God wants people to freely choose it. Then it is possible that some just don’t want it, and God allows it, because He wants people to be free.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
See previous post.

And if you don't know why Jesus had to die, and assuming it made any difference, you don't know why God couldn't have achieved that difference without the bloodshed, just say so.

There is no amount of explanation on anyone's part to reason out with a person under a state of denial.
Such person is devoid of any rational, always scheming with various ways to twist the truth into a lie.

462abec96b6881e8cb527f6c06bcef89.jpeg


Your assertion was GOD ORDERED MASS RAPE
and you divert the whole thing to Jesus, what sort of deceit is this?

This is what the Bible says on people who cannot explain their twisted facts about God.

Acts 13:10 New International Version (NIV)
“You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
And each time I made an extremely relevant reply which goes like this:

It isn't clear that Jephthah made a free choice. Instead he made the deal while "the Spirit of the Lord was upon him".

And this, in your opinion, turned Jephthah into a robot? :rolleyes:

If it was a free choice, then EITHER God ─ who was in a special way present with Jephthah at the time ─ already knew the consequences, the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter, but failed to warn Jephthah
OR didn't then know but found out later AT WHICH POINT God didn't intervene (as [he]'d intervened with Isaac and would later intervene with Jonah)

Well, God already knew.

But as a believer I also have an indwelling of Spirit:

"Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)​

Does this mean it's God's fault for not warning me before I purchased a Power ball number, that my car would break down on the highway, or that I should visit a relative this weekend before they die?

so that EITHER WAY God was directly complicit in the sacrifice.

So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came powerfully upon David (1 Samuel 16:13)

Is it your contention that it was this that caused David to lust after another man's wife?

And ─ correct me if I'm wrong ─ since we all think human sacrifice of this kind is morally vile, what God did was morally vile.

That would be incorrect. It wasn’t God who sacrificed Jephthah’s daughter, it was Jephthah. Ten shekels of silver would have completely resolved Jephthah’s vow but his pride and honor got in the way.

(Incidentally, if I saw a human sacrifice being prepared, and there was anything at all I could do that might prevent it, then I'd do it, whether I knew the slightest thing about the circumstances or not.

In other words, you would have paid the 10 shekels? Then tell us why Jephthah didn't. Was this yet another deleterious affect of the Spirit?

And I suspect you well might do the same thing.

Thanks to God we both know right from wrong. We may not agree on scripture but I believe that in general our moral compasses point in the same direction.

Which would make us morally superior to God, not only sitting on [his] hands here but personally conniving in the murder.

I don’t understand.

Let’s say we make the same vow as Jephthah. Our daughters are bound to be sacrificed. They ask for a 2 month reprieve to contemplate all that they will miss in this life. During this time, the only thing we can think of is the loss of face if we cough up 10 shekels each to redeem them from our own stupid vow. At the end of two months they agree to honor a vow they never made simply because they live under our house and know the shame you would face now that our "word" had been "devalued" to 10 shekels. But instead of valuing them all the more we decided to go ahead and sacrifice them just like we said we would without a moment's thought to their redemption.

How does this make us “morally superior” to the Almighty? How do you miss the consistent theme of redemption throughout scripture? Walk me through your logic here.

So here’s the part you left out: Even when you make a “rash vow” to the Lord there is still a way out. All Jephthah had to do was pay 10 shekels to the priests and his daughter was free from his vow.

Really? I've read the chapter a number of times but I failed to notice that part.

Please quote it to me.

Quote? Gladly:

Leviticus 27:1–8 (ESV):

Laws About Vows

27 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, If anyone makes a special vow to the LORD involving the valuation of persons, 3 then the valuation of a male from twenty years old up to sixty years old shall be fifty shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary. 4 If the person is a female, the valuation shall be thirty shekels. 5 If the person is from five years old up to twenty years old, the valuation shall be for a male twenty shekels, and for a female ten shekels. 6 If the person is from a month old up to five years old, the valuation shall be for a male five shekels of silver, and for a female the valuation shall be three shekels of silver. 7 And if the person is sixty years old or over, then the valuation for a male shall be fifteen shekels, and for a female ten shekels. 8 And if someone is too poor to pay the valuation, then he shall be made to stand before the priest, and the priest shall value him; the priest shall value him according to what the vower can afford.

So there’s the kicker…Even if the Israel’s commander could not have afforded the 10 shekels (and he obviously could) there was a provision…a “deal” as you would call it…allowing anyone to go before the priest and pay only what they could afford. Somehow that doesn’t sound like the provision of a “vile” God to me.

My personal belief was that Jephthah’s daughter was hoping to buy some time, not only for her but as an opportunity for dad to see the value in her, but in the end he valued his pride too much and did exactly as he stated he (and not God!) would do.

Little wonder why God called them “a stiff necked people” (Exodus 32:9, 33:5. 34:9, Deuteronomy 9:13) or why Stephen, after surmising the history of Israel while standing before the Sanhedrin would do the same:

"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.” (Acts 7:51)​
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think one thing that trips up unbelievers over and over and over in the texts is that unbelievers tend to assume (often just without thinking how it affects an overall situation) that death of this mortal body is the final death.

A key assumption, sometimes used without the person realizing they are relying on it for their conclusions.
A Jewish belief in the afterlife in ancient times is hard to demonstrate. The only early example, and a problematic one, I can think of is Saul consulting the woman of Endor who calls up the dead 'Samuel' as an apparently sentient spirit. The resurrections of the Zarapath woman's son (1 Kings 17:17+), the Shunammite woman's son (2 Kings 4:32+), and the man whose corpse touched Elisha's bones (2 Kings 13:21) are just that, coming-back-to-life.

Instead we find ─

Job 14:10 But man dies, and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? 11 As waters fail from a lake, and a river wastes away and dries up,12 so man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake, or be roused out of his sleep.

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts. 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 9:4 But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.​

Jewish ideas about a soul are from the Greeks, following Alexander's conquests around 300 BCE, (Christian ideas of soul, judgment, afterlife, are also essentially Greek.)

So I don't think we can with any confidence attribute ideas of the immortality of the soul to the authors of the early Tanakh.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, none of those conclusions logically follow (unless you add extra presumptions/belief that many or most people don't accept).
Either God knows what's going to happen or God doesn't know what's going to happen.

If theological free will works as you suggest, then God doesn't know what's going to happen, can't foretell human history, is incapable of prophecy because of that ignorance.
Omniscience reasonably means seeing all that is, pretense tense
No, it's from Latin omnis 'all, everything' and scire 'to know'. The claim, therefore, is that God knows everything, not just the present and the past. The same applies to 'omnipresent' ─ if God is omnipresent then God is there not just in the past and the present but the future as well.

And if God is omnipotent ('all-powerful') then even if God isn't omniscient or omnipresent in the future right now, [he] being omnipotent can instantly make [him]self so at will.
None of this complexity would prevent Him from being able to later intervene anyway and cause outcomes He decides for certain things.
If you mean that an omnipotent omniscient god must ultimately be responsible for everything that ever happens, then I completely agree. No human (for example) can ever deviate even by the breadth of a quark from what God perfectly foresaw before [he] made the universe, and everything that ever happens in the universe is exactly and only as [he] perfectly intended.

So the omni-god model has major problems, which it seems fashionable to ignore or for which workarounds have to be invented.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Unless God wants people to freely choose it. Then it is possible that some just don’t want it, and God allows it, because He wants people to be free.
No, it's a trap. You use your freewill to deviate from the party line and you boil in hell forever. That's not freedom. It's much more like being in a herd of cattle being whipped to market.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your assertion was GOD ORDERED MASS RAPE
I didn't divert anything. I gave you the quote, I explained what it meant, I was not explicit in accusing you of naivety before but I'll do so now.

It means that the women were divided among the soldiers with the idea that they'd be breeding stock, and no question of consent is involved. If you read the rules for bonking your slaves, you'll find they don't mention consent either.

Forced sexual intercourse is rape.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And this, in your opinion, turned Jephthah into a robot?
I think the term is 'undue influence'.
Well, God already knew.
So now we know that God will give you victory in battle in exchange for a suitable human sacrifice. Or at least back in Jephthah's day that was the case.
But as a believer I also have an indwelling of Spirit:

"Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)​
But that's much later theology, and Christian, indeed Pauline, at that. Back in Jephthah's day, there was no concept of a soul (or if Samuel at Endor was a spirit, no coherent concept). Clarity doesn't come until Alexander brings Greek culture to that part of the world around 300 BCE. That's also where Christian ideas of soul, judgment, afterlife, come from. Until then, the dead were just dead (eg Job 12:7-8, Psalm 146:3, Ecclesiastes 3:18-21, Ecclesiastes 9:4-5) ─ though not always unambiguously so.
Does this mean it's God's fault for not warning me before I purchased a Power ball number, that my car would break down on the highway, or that I should visit a relative this weekend before they die?
Were I in a position to give you such warnings, I dare say I'd do all of those things, since they're part of ordinary decency and require no extremes of effort. God isn't notorious for [his] ordinary decency, of course ─ though some say [he] makes sympathetic clucking noises after the event. Please correct me if that's unfair.
So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came powerfully upon David (1 Samuel 16:13)
Is it your contention that it was this that caused David to lust after another man's wife?
No, I dare say David came equipped with the lusting gear of an ordinary male without further help. But once again, ordinary decency would suggest he be reminded why it might not be a good idea.
That would be incorrect. It wasn’t God who sacrificed Jephthah’s daughter, it was Jephthah.
God (a) entered into the deal presumably knowing what it would involve before Jephthah did (b) carried out [his] part of the bargain thus locking Jephthah in (c) did not intervene to prevent the killing, though [he]'d intervened in the case of Isaac and arguably in the case of Jonah and (d) after the killing didn't hesitate to raise Jephthah to be No 1 Man in Israel.

[He] looks pretty complicit to me.
Ten shekels of silver would have completely resolved Jephthah’s vow but his pride and honor got in the way.
Where does the bible spell that out?
Thanks to God we both know right from wrong. We may not agree on scripture but I believe that in general our moral compasses point in the same direction.
Well, one way or another we do. I appreciate and accord with your statement.
Let’s say we make the same vow as Jephthah.
I need to get the 'ten shekels' bit sorted out before I comment on this.
 
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Oeste

Well-Known Member
They were for them to have wives. But that is not same as to rape, or do you rape your wife, is it ok to rape wife?

Correct!

Deuteronomy 21: 10-14 clearly shows they had to marry a captive first.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Where? As @MJFlores has already pointed out, despite your herculean efforts to insert it in, "rape" is missing from the narrative.

Your assertion was GOD ORDERED MASS RAPE
and you divert the whole thing to Jesus, what sort of deceit is this?

Yes, that's exactly what he alleged @MJFlores, but it's hard to make a point when the goalposts keep moving.

Oh, really? You think these women were being offered a choice by the soldiers who'd just massacred their parents, siblings, relatives, friends and community?

You surprise me.

No, I don't think @1213 believes they were offered a choice, but then he knows woman weren't offered such options until recently. Deuteronomy 24:1 tells us "When a man taketh a wife..." not the converse, and not "When a man and woman taketh each other".

I need to get the 'ten shekels' bit sorted out before I comment on this.

The quote is there. Take your time.
 
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