Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

[Samael_Khan]

That's sort of the result of discussions we've had on the private group about such incidents.

Actually, I won't lie, and I'll say that in the case of ch. 53, Christianity have a bit of a case. But one important idea to remember is that Christians waited until decades after Jesus' supposed death and then went back and stuffed his life into the Tanach, while the Jewish views on the matter were always - before and after - different.

That is my suspicion, because we do not know who the original authors were besides claims from Christian tradition. I also suspect that Christianity was an off shoot "cult" based around the cult of personality of only one of the many individuals who might have claimed to be the messiah in the flesh.

I would say that Psalms 22 is also a pretty strong case for them because it is similar to Isaiah 53 in describing what Jesus had to go through. And it is interesting that there are two scriptures like that.

My understanding of the Jewish view of Isaiah 53 is that Jews do not view the Servant as the Messiah, and chapter 53 is about the servant?

 

[Harel13]

My understanding of the Jewish view of Isaiah 53 is that Jews do not view the Servant as the Messiah, and chapter 53 is about the servant?

Yes. The servant is most commonly thought to be the Nation of Israel, though some minority opinions may say that it's not even a prophetic chapter but is allegorical and is speaking about King David.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes. The servant is most commonly thought to be the Nation of Israel, though some minority opinions may say that it's not even a prophetic chapter but is allegorical and is speaking about King David.

I don't understand how they came to the conclusion that the servant is the Nation of Israel.

Isn't Israel usually referred to as a "she" and not a "he"? And if it is a "he" is it referring to the Patriarch Jacob as a metaphor for the nation which is who the tribes stemmed from?
How does the narrative apply to Israel?
Why is it not possible that the servant could be a prophet or Messiah?

 

[Harel13]

I don't understand how they came to the conclusion that the servant is the Nation of Israel.

Isn't Israel usually referred to as a "she" and not a "he"? And if it is a "he" is it referring to the Patriarch Jacob as a metaphor for the nation which is who the tribes stemmed from?
How does the narrative apply to Israel?
Why is it not possible that the servant could be a prophet or Messiah?

Will get back to you later. Meanwhile... @dybmh @Rival @rosends I invoke thy names...

 

[Samael_Khan]

Will get back to you later. Meanwhile... @dybmh @Rival @rosends I invoke thy names...

Haha! Thanks.

 

[rosends]

I don't understand how they came to the conclusion that the servant is the Nation of Israel.

Isn't Israel usually referred to as a "she" and not a "he"? And if it is a "he" is it referring to the Patriarch Jacob as a metaphor for the nation which is who the tribes stemmed from?
How does the narrative apply to Israel?
Why is it not possible that the servant could be a prophet or Messiah?

Not only does the book of Isaiah explicitly equate the servant with the nation, but the use of the singular for a collective whole has biblical precedent.
examples first for the servant as the nation
Isaiah 41:8

But, you [masculine singular] Israel, are My servant; Jacob, whom I have chosen; seed of Abraham, My friend.

second for the masculine singular noun referring to people in Israel

Judges 20:17

And the man of Israel, besides Benjamin, numbered 400,000 man who drew sword; all these were man of war.

as for how the narrative applies, I suggest you work through this page (and the book as a whole)
The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 - Source Book

 

[Harel13]

The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 - Source Book

I keep forgetting about this site.
@Israel Khan, it's well worth your time to go through the various parts of that site because it's exactly on the topic of this thread.

 

[Rival]

I’ve taken my Christian Bible and looked at the ‘OT’ footnotes in the ‘NT’. Let’s go, starting with Matthew.

1

Matthew 1:23 claims a prophecy of a virgin birth.

‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and they shall cal his name Emmanuel.’

It cites Isaiah 7:14, which actually says,

Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

The context here is pretty clear: the young woman exists at this moment, is clearly not a virgin as the text does not say so and she is pregnant, and will have a boy.

2.

Matthew 2:15 records ‘Out of Egypt I called my son,’ as a fulfilment of Jesus returning from Egypt after the King who sought to kill him died. It is ripped from Hoshea 11:1,

For, when Israel was young, I loved him, and from Egypt I called My son.

This needs no explanation.

3

Matthew 2:18 describes,

A voice was heard in Ramah,
Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
Refusing to be comforted,
Because they are no more.

As a prophecy about the slaughter of the innocents when Herod sends men to kill all boys in Bethlehem under 2 in order to kill Jesus. As well as such a slaughter having no historical basis, this quote is ripped straight out of Jeremiah 31:14-15-16 (from 15 in a Christian Bible),

So says the Lord: A voice is heard on high, lamentation, bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, she refuses to be comforted for her children for they are not. So says the Lord: Refrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for there is reward for your work, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. And there is hope for your future, says the Lord, and the children shall return to their own border.

This is talking about Israel being weary because of their exile, but G-d will bring them back to their land.


4.

Matthew is trying to use Isaiah 40:3 to refer to John the Baptist,

For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

The text says,

A voice calls, "In the desert, clear the way of the Lord, straighten out in the wilderness, a highway for our God."

This is also referring to Israelite exiles returning to Israel.

5.

This verse says that Jesus lived in Nazareth to comply with yet another verse from Isaiah, saying,

“The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned.”

The text reads from Isaiah 8:23-9:1,

For there is no weariness to the one who oppresses her; like the first time, he dealt mildly, [exiling only] the land of Zebulun and the land of Naftali, and the last one he dealt harshly, the way of the sea, and the other side of the Jordan, the attraction of the nations.
The people who walked in darkness, have seen a great light; those who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, light shone upon them.

Again this talks about Israelites witnessing the downfall of a King (Sennacherib in this case) and being returned to their former glory from exile. This verse is saying First Zevulun and Naftali were exiled and then the rest followed. Nazareth isn’t even mentioned.

6.

Matthew uses Isaiah 53:4, to refer to Jesus healing the sick,

When evening had come, they brought to him many who were demon-possessed. And he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“He himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.”

Isaiah 53:4 reads,

Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

This verse has nothing to do with healing sick people or faith-healing.

7

Matthew says this,

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set[a] a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

He quotes Micah 7:6 and I’ll just give you the context for this,

The pious have perished from the land, and there is no upright among men; they all lurk for blood; each one hunts his brother with a net. [In return] for the evil of their hands, do they expect that He will benefit them? The prince asks, and the judge is in the payment, and the great man speaks what is in his heart-and they weave the web. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright, [worse] than a thorn hedge. The day to which you look forward-your visitation-shall come; now will be their perplexity. Believe not a friend; trust not a prince; from she who lies in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth. For a son disgraces his father; a daughter rises up against her mother; a daughter-in-law, against her mother- in-law; a man's enemies are the members of his household. But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.

Jesus is here comparing himself to a wicked person. I guess it’s one Matthew was right about.

Alright, I think you take the point for this book. Now I'll move on to Paul.

 

[Harel13]

I’ve taken my Christian Bible and looked at the ‘OT’ footnotes in the ‘NT’. Let’s go, starting with Matthew.

I've made a new Hybrid Frubal just for you:

Presenting, the Medal of Usefulness...

 

[Samael_Khan]

Not only does the book of Isaiah explicitly equate the servant with the nation, but the use of the singular for a collective whole has biblical precedent.
examples first for the servant as the nation
Isaiah 41:8

But, you [masculine singular] Israel, are My servant; Jacob, whom I have chosen; seed of Abraham, My friend.

second for the masculine singular noun referring to people in Israel

Judges 20:17

And the man of Israel, besides Benjamin, numbered 400,000 man who drew sword; all these were man of war.

as for how the narrative applies, I suggest you work through this page (and the book as a whole)
The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 - Source Book

I didn't take Isaiah 41 into consideration actually. It refers to the nation as both Israel and Jacob, and in my mind chapter 53 could be using the man Israel (Jacob) as a metaphor for the nation, hence why he has children in Isaiah 53:10. And then it also makes sense in the case of the theocratic nation of Israel being destroyed and suffering because of the Israelites sins.

Regarding the use of "man" in Isaiah 53 it seems to me to applying to one individual, which would be Jacobs who is Israel.

I like that resource. Thanks very much for the reference. Will read the book at a later stage.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I keep forgetting about this site.
@Israel Khan, it's well worth your time to go through the various parts of that site because it's exactly on the topic of this thread.

That is an awesome site.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I didn't take Isaiah 41 into consideration actually. It refers to the nation as both Israel and Jacob, and in my mind chapter 53 could be using the man Israel (Jacob) as a metaphor for the nation, hence why he has children in Isaiah 53:10. And then it also makes sense in the case of the theocratic nation of Israel being destroyed and suffering because of the Israelites sins.

Regarding the use of "man" in Isaiah 53 it seems to me to applying to one individual, which would be Jacobs who is Israel.

I like that resource. Thanks very much for the reference. Will read the book at a later stage.

On further reflection I might be wrong about this.

 

[Rival]

I'm getting to Paul later. There is so much to go through here. I've done 2 already but I'm going to have to take more time because context is key and there is only so much Paul I can take.

 

[Harel13]

This statement is nothing new. It's the same reason ppl rejected Jesus. "These prophecies are supposed to mean..."

Are we God? Then how is it that we can say what prophecy made by God is intended for?

Yes, there are some quotes that don't quite match up. But as to whether they are meant to mean certain things, remember how badly they messed up prophecy in Star Wars.

Hey @Samantha Rinne, it says Jews only in the title......

 

[Samael_Khan]

This statement is nothing new. It's the same reason ppl rejected Jesus. "These prophecies are supposed to mean..."

Are we God? Then how is it that we can say what prophecy made by God is intended for?

Yes, there are some quotes that don't quite match up. But as to whether they are meant to mean certain things, remember how badly they messed up prophecy in Star Wars.

Haha! Your Star Wars reference is funny.

Please bare in mind that this is the religions Q&A section and I did request Jews (Noahides as well) only because I want to specifically get their viewpoint.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I'm getting to Paul later. There is so much to go through here. I've done 2 already but I'm going to have to take more time because context is key and there is only so much Paul I can take.

I can imagine that Paul will be a lot especially if you include Romans and Hebrews in that. Take your time.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I have just been reading Isaiah 53 with my friend. I have tracked the narrative to go at least as far back as Isaiah 48. inbetween those chapters and chapter 53 (which starts at Isaiah 52:13) the servant is constantly referred to as Israel/Jacob/Zion (the national concept) and Jerusalem being his daughter. I think this is enough to conclude that Isaiah 53 is referring to Israel and not an actual human, because it is consistent with the narrative.

My interpretation of Isaiah 53 would differ from that link you sent at this point in time. ( I haven't read the link yet)

The narrative of isaiah 53 seems to me to correlate metaphorically with the Israels captivity by Babylon until its freedom from Babylon. So the physical nation, the concept, state and infrastructure, was attacked and degraded because because of Israels sins which are recorded in the beginning of Isaiah and Deuteronomy 28 (the curses). Then it was raised back to prominence as per the story related in Nehemiah.

 

[Harel13]

@Israel Khan I just remembered this post I made awhile back.

Here we go (in no order of importance):

1. Psalms 22:17 - Tanach:
"For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."
NT version (KJV, similarly, many other versions): 22:16:
"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

2. Isaiah 7:14 - Tanach:
"Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
NT version (KJV), Matthew 1:23:
"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
KJV Isaiah 7:14:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Just a side note, how do we know the Hebrew word 'עלמה' 'almah' is 'young woman' and not 'virgin'? Because the Hebrew word for 'virgin' is 'betulah' which Isaiah also uses. For example (62:5): "For as a young man espouseth a virgin, so shall thy sons espouse thee; and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee." - כִּי-יִבְעַל בָּחוּר בְּתוּלָה, יִבְעָלוּךְ בָּנָיִךְ; וּמְשׂוֹשׂ חָתָן עַל-כַּלָּה, יָשִׂישׂ עָלַיִךְ" אֱלֹקיִךְ."
Moreover, the name "Immanuel" does not mean "God shall become flesh and walk among us" or something, it simply means: "God is with us".

3. Isaiah 53 - Tanach:
[Describes a suffering servant] - This refers to the Nation of Israel and follows the theme of ch. 52's description of the exile and redemption. Israel is referred to as the servant of God in singular form several times before this chapter. For example: "Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen..." (Isaiah 43:10).
Isaiah 53 - NT:
For example, Matthew 8:14-17: "When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him. When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: “He took up our infirmities and bore our diseases.”"

4. Isaiah 59:20 - Tanach:
"And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."
NT version - Romans 11:26-27:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

5. Daniel 9:25-26 - Tanach:
"Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times. And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
NT version (KJV):
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

I think that's enough for now.
Note: I was not aware that RF automatically links verses. I linked all verses myself from other sources.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I’ve taken my Christian Bible and looked at the ‘OT’ footnotes in the ‘NT’. Let’s go, starting with Matthew.

1

Matthew 1:23 claims a prophecy of a virgin birth.

‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and they shall cal his name Emmanuel.’

It cites Isaiah 7:14, which actually says,

Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

The context here is pretty clear: the young woman exists at this moment, is clearly not a virgin as the text does not say so and she is pregnant, and will have a boy.

This was one of the inconsistencies i was referring to. It actually refers to a child (who will be born to Isaiah and his prophetess wife) as not knowing to refuse evil and choose the good before the two kings forsake their land. The prophecy is actually about Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz their son and the Kings referred to are Rezin and remaliah.

It is very strange how they got the use of this prophecy right.

2.

Matthew 2:15 records ‘Out of Egypt I called my son,’ as a fulfilment of Jesus returning from Egypt after the King who sought to kill him died. It is ripped from Hoshea 11:1,

For, when Israel was young, I loved him, and from Egypt I called My son.

This needs no explanation.

It is the same issue with Isaiah 53. What is originally being referred to as applying Jesus in the NT is actually referring to Israel.

3

Matthew 2:18 describes,

A voice was heard in Ramah,
Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
Refusing to be comforted,
Because they are no more.

As a prophecy about the slaughter of the innocents when Herod sends men to kill all boys in Bethlehem under 2 in order to kill Jesus. As well as such a slaughter having no historical basis, this quote is ripped straight out of Jeremiah 31:14-15-16 (from 15 in a Christian Bible),

So says the Lord: A voice is heard on high, lamentation, bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, she refuses to be comforted for her children for they are not. So says the Lord: Refrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for there is reward for your work, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. And there is hope for your future, says the Lord, and the children shall return to their own border.

This is talking about Israel being weary because of their exile, but G-d will bring them back to their land.

I actually had to give a talk on this scripture once and I struggled with it because of its original context.

4.

Matthew is trying to use Isaiah 40:3 to refer to John the Baptist,

For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

The text says,

A voice calls, "In the desert, clear the way of the Lord, straighten out in the wilderness, a highway for our God."

This is also referring to Israelite exiles returning to Israel.

Makes sense.

5.

This verse says that Jesus lived in Nazareth to comply with yet another verse from Isaiah, saying,

“The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned.”

The text reads from Isaiah 8:23-9:1,

For there is no weariness to the one who oppresses her; like the first time, he dealt mildly, [exiling only] the land of Zebulun and the land of Naftali, and the last one he dealt harshly, the way of the sea, and the other side of the Jordan, the attraction of the nations.

The people who walked in darkness, have seen a great light; those who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, light shone upon them.

Again this talks about Israelites witnessing the downfall of a King (Sennacherib in this case) and being returned to their former glory from exile. This verse is saying First Zevulun and Naftali were exiled and then the rest followed. Nazareth isn’t even mentioned.

True

6.

Matthew uses Isaiah 53:4, to refer to Jesus healing the sick,

When evening had come, they brought to him many who were demon-possessed. And he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“He himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.”

Isaiah 53:4 reads,

Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

This verse has nothing to do with healing sick people or faith-healing.

True, because it seems that the illnesses and pains have been thrown on him.

7

Matthew says this,

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set[a] a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

He quotes Micah 7:6 and I’ll just give you the context for this,

The pious have perished from the land, and there is no upright among men; they all lurk for blood; each one hunts his brother with a net. [In return] for the evil of their hands, do they expect that He will benefit them? The prince asks, and the judge is in the payment, and the great man speaks what is in his heart-and they weave the web. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright, [worse] than a thorn hedge. The day to which you look forward-your visitation-shall come; now will be their perplexity. Believe not a friend; trust not a prince; from she who lies in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth. For a son disgraces his father; a daughter rises up against her mother; a daughter-in-law, against her mother- in-law; a man's enemies are the members of his household. But I will hope in the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God shall hearken to me.

Jesus is here comparing himself to a wicked person. I guess it’s one Matthew was right about.

Alright, I think you take the point for this book. Now I'll move on to Paul.

Oh snap! I did not see that one before! That is a gem.

 

[Samael_Khan]

@Israel Khan I just remembered this post I made awhile back.

Aren't these differences due to the NT quoting from the Greek Septuagint?