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Qabblah according to non-Jews

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
A few days ago I became aware that there's an inherent difference between the term Kabbalah and Qabbalah. Of course, both stem from the Hebrew word קבלה which means "receiving [of tradition]" and use similar terminology, but what I did not know was that the two disciplines take these ideas in two different directions.

Until now, I was aware that there were two types of Kabbalah: the real stuff, taught according to Jewish traditions, and the fake stuff, seemingly taught according to Jewish traditions, but really is the work of a group of charlatans and thieves (as a rule of thumb in Judaism - if a man outright tells you he's Kabbalist, and even more so, if he demands payment for his services, he's a charlatan. That's not to say he may not have some sort of special abilities - but that ain't Kabbalah). An example for the latter are the Kabbalah centers that people such as Madonna go to - that's fake, new-agey stuff. True Kabbalists study Kabbalah in secret and for the theoretical part, not the practical part.

However, it seems that there's a third type: Qabbalah (yes, the distinction is made with a different first letter) which appears to have been created by non-Jews (Christians originally, to my understanding) by taking the Jewish terminology in a different direction, as I previously stated. An example for this is that some of Kabbalah is used to heal the person's spirituality from various sins, however the same terms that are used to define the [mostly negative] parts of the person's soul that have muddied it and need to be dealt with and fixed, according to Kabbalah, "Klipot", are considered in Qabbalah (as "Qliphoth") to be quite the opposite: Untold secret fountains of knowledge that one must strive to access. (Qliphoth - Wikipedia)

What I'm wondering is: How did this happen? How did Qabbalistic teachings deviate so much from Kabbalistic teachings? This is, after all, considered to have originated as a Jewish school of thought, yet the teachings are so vastly un-Jewish (regardless of the terminology). Is this a form of supersessionism, perhaps? But if so, on what is it based, exactly?

(Note to people who may follow the path of Qabbalah, I'm not attacking the view, but simply attempting to understand where it is coming from).
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
A few days ago I became aware that there's an inherent difference between the term Kabbalah and Qabbalah. Of course, both stem from the Hebrew word קבלה which means "receiving [of tradition]" and use similar terminology, but what I did not know was that the two disciplines take these ideas in two different directions.

Until now, I was aware that there were two types of Kabbalah: the real stuff, taught according to Jewish traditions, and the fake stuff, seemingly taught according to Jewish traditions, but really is the work of a group of charlatans and thieves (as a rule of thumb in Judaism - if a man outright tells you he's Kabbalist, and even more so, if he demands payment for his services, he's a charlatan. That's not to say he may not have some sort of special abilities - but that ain't Kabbalah). An example for the latter are the Kabbalah centers that people such as Madonna go to - that's fake, new-agey stuff. True Kabbalists study Kabbalah in secret and for the theoretical part, not the practical part.

However, it seems that there's a third type: Qabbalah (yes, the distinction is made with a different first letter) which appears to have been created by non-Jews (Christians originally, to my understanding) by taking the Jewish terminology in a different direction, as I previously stated. An example for this is that some of Kabbalah is used to heal the person's spirituality from various sins, however the same terms that are used to define the [mostly negative] parts of the person's soul that have muddied it and need to be dealt with and fixed, according to Kabbalah, "Klipot", are considered in Qabbalah (as "Qliphoth") to be quite the opposite: Untold secret fountains of knowledge that one must strive to access. (Qliphoth - Wikipedia)

What I'm wondering is: How did this happen? How did Qabbalistic teachings deviate so much from Kabbalistic teachings? This is, after all, considered to have originated as a Jewish school of thought, yet the teachings are so vastly un-Jewish (regardless of the terminology). Is this a form of supersessionism, perhaps? But if so, on what is it based, exactly?

(Note to people who may follow the path of Qabbalah, I'm not attacking the view, but simply attempting to understand where it is coming from).


Alchemy


it is believed that hermes and melchizedek were possibly contemporaries. it is possible they were the same person having different names like joseph's experienc in egypt. it is also possible that the Qabbalah is likely just another cultural term for alchemy. the israelites would have learned it from the egyptians and their time spent in the furnace.


so again we're dealing with esoteric vs exoteric. jesus made a point of this when regarding the pharisees and discussing half washed cups.


there is what is called a language of the birds. it is also called the green language and few other vague terms. its a reference to the mystical language.


it all revolves around one thing. the

Emerald Tablet - Wikipedia

it is mentioned in revelation.


i have that stone. the hopi know of it too as do many around the world


 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Hermes? As in, Greek god Hermes?
having other names based on other cultures. hermetics

Furnace? What furnace?
deuteronomy 4:20

When you say "Qabbalah", are you differentiating between Qabbalah (with a Q) and Kabblah (with a K) or not?


i was introduced to kabbalah by rabbi david cooper; though only through his audio teachings.


Books & CD's — Rabbi David Cooper


I had to pay for the series. i guess you can decide.


but ezekiel mentions the stone twice with the same idea in two verses in two different chapters.


a child is born unto us and like enoch snatched away to heaven, by god? has it been taken, is it already that far gone?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
having other names based on other cultures. hermetics
No, I mean who is this Hermes that you're referring to and what does he have to do with alchemy?
deuteronomy 4:20
I see nothing about a furnace here.
i was introduced to kabbalah by rabbi david cooper; though only through his audio teachings.
So you're not differentiating between Kabbalah and Qabbalah. The thread's subject is about this point of diversity; where did it come from? How did it happen? I'm not asking for the origins of Kabbalah, I'm asking for the origins of Qabbalah.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
No, I mean who is this Hermes that you're referring to and what does he have to do with alchemy?

I see nothing about a furnace here.

So you're not differentiating between Kabbalah and Qabbalah. The thread's subject is about this point of diversity; where did it come from? How did it happen? I'm not asking for the origins of Kabbalah, I'm asking for the origins of Qabbalah.
there is no exact language except in mathematics


iron crucible if you prefer is still a way of smelting. smelting is a way of removing impurities to get the purity of something. in this case mettle
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Sorry, I misread the verse, you're correct.

Huh? What does this have to do with the subject?


don't get hung up on where it's coming from. when the student is ready, the human teacher doesn't matter. god moves in mysterious ways. if the student will allow, god will take possession. jeremiah 17:10, jonah 2:2, psalm 18


Jade Books in Heaven - Wikipedia



its more about what are you wanting? to have power, to increase the ego? to lord over other's as self?


or simply as a balm to alleviate suffering, succor, justice?


would self rather be king? or to love and be loved by someone?









allahu akbar
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
its more about what are you wanting? to have power, to increase the ego? to lord over other's as self?


or simply as a balm for alleviate suffering, succor, justice?


would self rather be king? or to love and be loved by someone?
No, not at all. I'm not interested in studying Kabbalah or Qabbalah. I highly recommend you re-read my OP to know where I'm coming from:
A few days ago I became aware that there's an inherent difference between the term Kabbalah and Qabbalah. Of course, both stem from the Hebrew word קבלה which means "receiving [of tradition]" and use similar terminology, but what I did not know was that the two disciplines take these ideas in two different directions.

Until now, I was aware that there were two types of Kabbalah: the real stuff, taught according to Jewish traditions, and the fake stuff, seemingly taught according to Jewish traditions, but really is the work of a group of charlatans and thieves (as a rule of thumb in Judaism - if a man outright tells you he's Kabbalist, and even more so, if he demands payment for his services, he's a charlatan. That's not to say he may not have some sort of special abilities - but that ain't Kabbalah). An example for the latter are the Kabbalah centers that people such as Madonna go to - that's fake, new-agey stuff. True Kabbalists study Kabbalah in secret and for the theoretical part, not the practical part.

However, it seems that there's a third type: Qabbalah (yes, the distinction is made with a different first letter) which appears to have been created by non-Jews (Christians originally, to my understanding) by taking the Jewish terminology in a different direction, as I previously stated. An example for this is that some of Kabbalah is used to heal the person's spirituality from various sins, however the same terms that are used to define the [mostly negative] parts of the person's soul that have muddied it and need to be dealt with and fixed, according to Kabbalah, "Klipot", are considered in Qabbalah (as "Qliphoth") to be quite the opposite: Untold secret fountains of knowledge that one must strive to access. (Qliphoth - Wikipedia)

What I'm wondering is: How did this happen? How did Qabbalistic teachings deviate so much from Kabbalistic teachings? This is, after all, considered to have originated as a Jewish school of thought, yet the teachings are so vastly un-Jewish (regardless of the terminology). Is this a form of supersessionism, perhaps? But if so, on what is it based, exactly?

(Note to people who may follow the path of Qabbalah, I'm not attacking the view, but simply attempting to understand where it is coming from).
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Until now, I was aware that there were two types of Kabbalah: the real stuff, taught according to Jewish traditions, and the fake stuff, seemingly taught according to Jewish traditions, but really is the work of a group of charlatans and thieves (as a rule of thumb in Judaism - if a man outright tells you he's Kabbalist, and even more so, if he demands payment for his services, he's a charlatan. That's not to say he may not have some sort of special abilities - but that ain't Kabbalah). An example for the latter are the Kabbalah centers that people such as Madonna go to - that's fake, new-agey stuff. True Kabbalists study Kabbalah in secret and for the theoretical part, not the practical part.

I finally found this thread - it had slipped off the new thread list and I'm on the left coast.

I don't understand the OP in part.

The part I do understand is that there are fakes - such are present in all religions and spiritual paths. We see such in Christianity every day. And in the East There are many hypocritical saints with long matted hair and their bodies besmeared with ashes. Tukaram says: "Let their dead conscience be burnt; it is no sin to thrash them!"

But where you assert that "True Kabbalists" study in secret for theoretical but not practical purposes, you lose me. I read quotes like these which are immensely practical, involve "mitzvot" and Tikkun Olam

In the holy Zohar it is written
that through the study
of the secret wisdom,
the final liberation will come with compassion.
Not with judgment alone.

Now the wisdom is no longer secret.

Sages and masters have found ways
to make it accessible to all.
Those who learn it and spread it,
they are bringing divine compassion
and redemption to the world.


Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

and:

What Is Tikkun Olam? - What does Tikkun Olam mean, who came up with it, and how do I do it?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
The part I do understand is that there are fakes - such are present in all religions and spiritual paths. We see such in Christianity every day
Oh, certainly. Just trying to understand the history of this particular sect. Thought maybe some of the folks over at the Magic DIR might know something.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I finally found this thread - it had slipped off the new thread list and I'm on the left coast.

I don't understand the OP in part.

The part I do understand is that there are fakes - such are present in all religions and spiritual paths. We see such in Christianity every day. And in the East There are many hypocritical saints with long matted hair and their bodies besmeared with ashes. Tukaram says: "Let their dead conscience be burnt; it is no sin to thrash them!"

But where you assert that "True Kabbalists" study in secret for theoretical but not practical purposes, you lose me. I read quotes like these which are immensely practical, involve "mitzvot" and Tikkun Olam

In the holy Zohar it is written
that through the study
of the secret wisdom,
the final liberation will come with compassion.
Not with judgment alone.

Now the wisdom is no longer secret.

Sages and masters have found ways
to make it accessible to all.
Those who learn it and spread it,
they are bringing divine compassion
and redemption to the world.


Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Lubavitcher Rebbe)

and:

What Is Tikkun Olam? - What does Tikkun Olam mean, who came up with it, and how do I do it?

Since this is quoting the Rebbe and the Chabad website, maybe I can help a little?

I'm guessing if the Rebbe were asked, "Are you a Kabbalist?" He would say "no." So, if you believe that I'm correct in my assumption, that would put any quote by the Rebbe in context. Pretty much anything you see on the Chabad website is Chassidus. Anything chronologically after the Baal Shem Tov and forward, is Chassidus. The exception is when the header on the Chabad website says "Kabbalah Online" in red.

upload_2020-6-3_10-56-45.png


The article you linked to had a tiny bit of Lurianic Kabbalah dealing with the concept of a spark and elevating it, but the rest was post BaalShemTov, and that makes it more accurate to call it Chassidus, Chabad Chassidus to be exact.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
folks over at the Magic DIR
@February-Saturday , can you help with this? We're looking for the origins of Qabbalah spelled with a 'Q' and whether or not these origins at some point intersected or had common origins with Jewish Mysticism aka Kabbalah spelled with a "K" in English.

Theories are welcome; this particular thread is located in a non-debate forum. No one will demand proof or evidence. If you have time and are so inclined I would appreciate your input on this.

Thank you,
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
Hermetic Qabalah came out of Christian Cabala.

What you're seeing is a distortion from Jews to esoteric Christians, from esoteric Christians to the Golden Dawn system, from the Golden Dawn system to Crowley, from Crowley to the A.'.'A.'. and OTO, and from these groups into several splinter factions that disagree on what Crowley was even talking about.

It's a game of telephone that's wrought with a ton of misappropriation. Overall, Qabalah has very little to do with Judaism, and a lot more to do with occultists trying to create the supernatural equivalent of a Theory of Everything. Added to this, an emphasis was placed on personal revelation. So you have the telephone game combined with gluing in extra pieces (astrology, alchemy, Enochian magic, grimoric tradition, etc.) and the entire system being rewritten and remade several times until it made sense, it's no wonder that things came out the other end almost completely different.

That said, viewing the Qliphoth as a "fountain of knowledge" is really a watered-down understanding of Satanic Qabalah. In this context, the Qliphoth has a lot less to do with Judaism and a lot more to do with Gnostic Alchemy and demonology. A lot of it uses Thelema for the names of the Qliphoth themselves and some of the correspondences to demonology.

In groups like the Temple of the Black Light, the Qliphoth was chosen specifically to oppose Yaldabaoth who is often equated in Gnosticism with the Jewish God, so it's an intentionally heretical take on Kabbalah. Nonetheless, they don't view their Qliphoth as being the same as the Qliphoth described in Judaism, but getting into that would require a much more complicated explanation of Satanic esotericism; particularly the Inverted Chaoskampf and the concept of currents.
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
@February-Saturday , can you help with this? We're looking for the origins of Qabbalah spelled with a 'Q' and whether or not these origins at some point intersected or had common origins with Jewish Mysticism aka Kabbalah spelled with a "K" in English.

Theories are welcome; this particular thread is located in a non-debate forum. No one will demand proof or evidence. If you have time and are so inclined I would appreciate your input on this.

Thank you,

Qabalah with a "Q" came from Rosicrucianism, and its spelling has significance in Enochian gematria. It came out of Cabala, which was an attempt to Christianize Kabbalah. As far as I'm aware, at least; it's not my main field of study.

Edit: To clarify, Qabalah is the system that came from merging Cabala with tarot cards, astrology, gematria, numerology, alchemy, Hermeticism, grimoiric tradition, and a variety of other strains in Christian occultism. Christian Cabala is a lot closer to Kabbalah, but some people have argued that it was likely based on a lot of misunderstandings of Kabbalah from the outset. So it sort of has some vague relationship with Kabbalah, but it's really a Rosicrucian system.
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
It's a game of telephone that's wrought with a ton of misappropriation. Overall, Qabalah has very little to do with Judaism, and a lot more to do with occultists trying to create the supernatural equivalent of a Theory of Everything. Added to this, an emphasis was placed on personal revelation. So you have the telephone game combined with gluing in extra pieces (astrology, alchemy, Enochian magic, grimoric tradition, etc.) and the entire system being rewritten and remade several times until it made sense, it's no wonder that things came out the other end almost completely different.
Fascinating!
Hermetic Qabalah came out of Christian Cabala.

What you're seeing is a distortion from Jews to esoteric Christians, from esoteric Christians to the Golden Dawn system, from the Golden Dawn system to Crowley, from Crowley to the A.'.'A.'. and OTO, and from these groups into several splinter factions that disagree on what Crowley was even talking about.

It's a game of telephone that's wrought with a ton of misappropriation. Overall, Qabalah has very little to do with Judaism, and a lot more to do with occultists trying to create the supernatural equivalent of a Theory of Everything. Added to this, an emphasis was placed on personal revelation. So you have the telephone game combined with gluing in extra pieces (astrology, alchemy, Enochian magic, grimoric tradition, etc.) and the entire system being rewritten and remade several times until it made sense, it's no wonder that things came out the other end almost completely different.

That said, viewing the Qliphoth as a "fountain of knowledge" is really a watered-down understanding of Satanic Qabalah. In this context, the Qliphoth has a lot less to do with Judaism and a lot more to do with Gnostic Alchemy and demonology. A lot of it uses Thelema for the names of the Qliphoth themselves and some of the correspondences to demonology.

In groups like the Temple of the Black Light, the Qliphoth was chosen specifically to oppose Yaldabaoth who is often equated in Gnosticism with the Jewish God, so it's an intentionally heretical take on Kabbalah. Nonetheless, they don't view their Qliphoth as being the same as the Qliphoth described in Judaism, but getting into that would require a much more complicated explanation of Satanic esotericism; particularly the Inverted Chaoskampf and the concept of currents.
There are tons of terms here that I have no idea what they mean...:sweatsmile:

Are you by any chance willing to give short definitions of the following: Golden Dawn system, AA, OTO, Enochian magic, Satanic Qabalah, Gnostic Alchemy, Chaoskampf?
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
Fascinating!

There are tons of terms here that I have no idea what they mean...:sweatsmile:

Are you by any chance willing to give short definitions of the following: Golden Dawn system, AA, OTO, Enochian magic, Satanic Qabalah, Gnostic Alchemy, Chaoskampf?

Oh, sure thing, my bad.

The Golden Dawn system refers to the beliefs and practices of The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which was an order that was formed out of the earlier Rosicrucian movement and is pretty much responsible for most of modern Western occultism. Crowley rose to a high rank in the order and then left it to sell its secrets and form Thelema.

The A.'.A.'. is both a mystical concept, and an actual organization founded by Crowley as a way to initiate people into Thelema.

The OTO is the Ordo Templi Orientis, which was a different secret order that Crowley joined and eventually rose to the top of. The OTO eventually became highly influenced by Thelema due to his presence.

Enochian magic is a system of magic developed by John Dee and Edward Kelley.

Satanic Qabalah is the technical (but infrequently used) name for the way Satanists approach the Qliphoth.

Gnostic Alchemy is a mystical traditional that blends Gnosticism and Hermeticism. It uses alchemical rituals and methods with Gnostic symbolism to reach Gnostic goals. It's one of the few forms of Gnosticism that wasn't really Christian.

The Chaoskampf is the name for a recurring trope of Order vanquishing Chaos seen in comparative religion. In most of esoteric Satanism, it's inverted and Chaos vanquishes Order. It seems like a simple palette swap, but it actually tends to have pretty wide-reaching implications.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, sure thing, my bad.

The Golden Dawn system refers to the beliefs and practices of The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which was an order that was formed out of the earlier Rosicrucian movement and is pretty much responsible for most of modern Western occultism. Crowley rose to a high rank in the order and then left it to sell its secrets and form Thelema.

The A.'.A.'. is both a mystical concept, and an actual organization founded by Crowley as a way to initiate people into Thelema.

The OTO is the Ordo Templi Orientis, which was a different secret order that Crowley joined and eventually rose to the top of. The OTO eventually became highly influenced by Thelema due to his presence.

Enochian magic is a system of magic developed by John Dee and Edward Kelley.

Satanic Qabalah is the technical (but infrequently used) name for the way Satanists approach the Qliphoth.

Gnostic Alchemy is a mystical traditional that blends Gnosticism and Hermeticism. It uses alchemical rituals and methods with Gnostic symbolism to reach Gnostic goals. It's one of the few forms of Gnosticism that wasn't really Christian.

The Chaoskampf is the name for a recurring trope of Order vanquishing Chaos seen in comparative religion. In most of esoteric Satanism, it's inverted and Chaos vanquishes Order. It seems like a simple palette swap, but it actually tends to have pretty wide-reaching implications.
Thank you, very interesting stuff.
 
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