The Good, the Bad and God

[PruePhillip]

I fear I'm having to say, That's not an accurate statement about reality, rather a lot in this thread.

The Tanakh was written by Jews and is a major part of their sacred scriptures. Nowhere does it refer to Jesus. It indicates the compass of the idea of a messiah. If there was an historical Jesus, then Jesus fits that description at no point, bring (as I've said to you before) neither a religious, a civil or a military leader, nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood. Nor (as I mentioned earlier in this thread) is there any contemporary reference to him in history, nor any mention of him by anyone who might actually have met him. From the perspective of a Jewish citizen he was either invisible or unremarkable.

It's also worth underlining that as a Jewish messiah, Jesus was also a total failure, obtaining no benefit for the citizens of Judea, and founding a religion that has been the generator of antisemitism and the greatest oppressors and killers of Jews of all time.
They still are ─ all of it nonsense since the Tanakh never mentions Jesus. (Independently of that, prophecy is nonsense in its own right, as we've also discussed.)
Please quote the part of Psalm 22 you're referring to. I see nothing useful to your argument there. And Psalm 53 is about Isaiah's Suffering Servant, and the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel as it existed when Isaiah was written. It has nothing to do with Jesus, though a lot to do with the favorite Christian sport of retrofitting, which is how Mark got written in the first place, as its author moves his hero through various passages from the Tanakh which appear to him, apparently in the midrash tradition, to be able to be pressed into service as 'messianic prophecies'.

Isaiah and David spoke on numerous occasions about the suffering Redeemer.
This was a man who suffered for the sins of other people and not his own. A
man who would die for his people, would rise again and be satisfied that his
suffering and death will save many people. And this would be told to generations
of people not yet born.
This suffering "failure" would appear to the Jewish people as their conquering
Messiah. And they will see it's the same humble man they crucified. They will
mourn because they did not accept him in his lowliness and cannot reign with
him in his glory.
That's all in the Tanakh.

 

[MJFlores]

You'll notice Judges 11:29 says "Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah" and in this condition he made the vow we're speaking of. That is, the deal was made directly under the influence of God, and EITHER God knew what was going to happen, that Jephthah would be faced with sacrificing his daughter, OR God didn't know, but when [he] found out, [he] DID NOT CALL IT OFF and eg say [he]'d take a sheep instead &c.

That is, Jephthah's daughter could not have been sacrificed without the direct complicity of God, who'd already called off the sacrifice of Isaac, and who later spared Jonah.

The question in this thread (in this instance regarding human sacrifice) is whether by our standards in 2020 human sacrifice is an atrocity, or whether it's still cool because God has approved of it on at least five occasions, and followed through with it on at least three (Jephthah's daughter, sons of Saul, Jesus), resulting at least nine deaths.

Which?

Who among the three was in error?

1. Jephthah who made a vow
2. God who gave him victory over his enemies
3. Jephthah's who came out and consented with his father's vow

If we could recall Abraham's sacrificing Isaac to God, God tested Abraham's obedience. Genesis 22

When Abraham is about to lunge the knife into Isaac, God sent an angel to call the thing off.
With regards to Jephthah, God did not test him but Jephthah made a free voluntary vow.
Jephthah wasn't kidding, maybe at the back of his mind another person would come out of his door.
Maybe a servant, maybe a maid or maybe an in-law [just kidding]

A vow is sacred, specially when it is made to God

Matthew 5:34 New International Version (NIV)
But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;

Since people do have a hard time believing the Bible,
how about if it came from a dead well known novelist?
To sum things up, the moral lesson of the story is:

 

[blü 2]

Isaiah and David spoke on numerous occasions about the suffering Redeemer.

Please quote the passages you rely on, or at the very least, provide references.

 

[Mike.Hester]

The reason why god is so violent in the bible, it is a solar myth which encompasses both involution and evolution. All of the names and action of god have a well hidden occult meaning which has fooled western man for that past 2000 years.

 

[blü 2]

When Abraham is about to lunge the knife into Isaac, God sent an angel to call the thing off.

Yes, but Abraham didn't think [he] was joking ─ Bronze Age gods were into human sacrifices. Think of Pharaohs buried with their personnel. Of Iphygenia. Of the Phoenicians. Of the Bog People of the Celts. In Rome, human sacrifice, associated with the Etruscans and the early arena, weren't banned till the 1st cent BCE. And so on. But those are all atrocities too.

With regards to Jephthah, God did not test him but Jephthah made a free voluntary vow.

That's not wholly clear, since the Spirit of the Lord was on him when he made the vow. God may have initiated the deal, or Jephthah may. But God is inescapably complicit both in the making of the vow and, as I said, in the actual deed of sacrificing Jephthah's daughter.

Do you think God did the right thing? That morals haven't changed since the Bronze Age? That human sacrifice is still a winner?

Jephthah wasn't kidding, maybe at the back of his mind another person would come out of his door.
Maybe a servant, maybe a maid or maybe an in-law [just kidding]

Jephthah's pet hamster, perhaps?

A vow is sacred, specially when it is made to God.

A vow to commit murder? I'd have said that could never be binding.

And that even if it could be, it would result in an atrocity, in which, in this case, God is deeply complicit, making sure it went through when [he] could have called it off.

Matthew 5:34 New International Version (NIV) But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;

Bang goes a lot of centuries of legal tradition. "I swear on my second-best Pink Floyd t-shirt that the evidence I give will be the truth ..." Maybe Donald's presidential oath was never binding ...

Since people do have a hard time believing the Bible, how about if it came from a dead well known novelist?

The bible is a set of ancient documents. They're no different to any other ancient document when it comes to examining them ─ what, when, where, who, why?

To sum things up, the moral lesson of the story is:

If you want to kill your daughter, set up a deal with God.

 

[MJFlores]

Do you think God did the right thing? That morals haven't changed since the Bronze Age? That human sacrifice is still a winner?

For Abraham it was a TEST of faith. He passed and nobody got killed.
For Mr. J, it was not a TEST, it was an oath. He passed and his daughter agreed to it requesting a 2 month vacation in the mountains.
The messages are not about animal or human sacrifices. It is about the ultimate sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Psalm 50:7-15 New International Version (NIV)
“Listen, my people, and I will speak;
I will testify against you, Israel:
I am God, your God.
I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices
or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me.
I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
I know every bird in the mountains,
and the insects in the fields are mine.
If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.
Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?

“Sacrifice thank offerings to God,
fulfill your vows to the Most High,
and call on me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you will honor me.”

A vow to commit murder? I'd have said that could never be binding.

How can it be murder?
When the Lord God owns every soul in this world?

Ezekiel 18:4 New International Version (NIV)
For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

Mr. J made a vow
Mr. J's daughter consented to it
If it is Mr. J's sin to offer his daughter as a burnt offering, then it was
But we can't tell if it is a sin against him, only God knows
He knows every motive of the human mind and heart

Jeremiah 17:10 New International Version (NIV)
“I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward each person according to their conduct,
according to what their deeds deserve.”

If you want to kill your daughter, set up a deal with God.

I believe Mr. J made a careless vow and I believe he was filled with sorrow, not wanting his daughter to come out of his house first. It should have been somebody else.

Nevertheless, it must be fulfilled.

The bible is a set of ancient documents. They're no different to any other ancient document when it comes to examining them ─ what, when, where, who, why?

The Bible is alive and active. .

That is why I am able to get answers for you, from the book.

Other books are dead, inanimate, useless piece of ....

 

[PruePhillip]

Please quote the passages you rely on, or at the very least, provide references.

Start with Psalm 22 and then 69.
Then read the second half of Isaiah 52 and all of 53.
The theme is of one who suffers for the sins of others, is jailed, tried, judged
and crucified. He rises again and is satisfied that through his suffering his
story is preached in all the world and lives are redeemed from sin.

 

[blü 2]

For Abraham it was a TEST of faith. He passed and nobody got killed.
For Mr. J, it was not a TEST, it was an oath. He passed and his daughter agreed to it requesting a 2 month vacation in the mountains.
The messages are not about animal or human sacrifices. It is about the ultimate sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.

But you didn't answer my question ─

Do you think God did the right thing? That morals haven't changed since the Bronze Age? That human sacrifice is still a winner?

(Assuming it to have been historical, I've never understood what Jesus' death by crucifixion actually achieved, what aspect of reality was different afterwards.

Nor, if anything was achieved, why God couldn't have achieved it equally as well, or better, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers.

Perhaps you can explain these to me as well.)

 

[blü 2]

Start with Psalm 22 and then 69.
Then read the second half of Isaiah 52 and all of 53.

It's not my job to invent your argument for you. Be specific ─ set out the words you rely on.

The theme is of one who suffers for the sins of others, is jailed, tried, judged
and crucified.

And don't forget to quote the part where it says "crucified".

 

[PruePhillip]

It's not my job to invent your argument for you. Be specific ─ set out the words you rely on.
And don't forget to quote the part where it says "crucified".

This is actually a standard tactic of critical 'scholars' and Jewish rabbis.
Nail you down to a single word. In fact whole themes or chapters are
often dismissed on the basis of a word.
So let's avoid words...

born of a woman through a sign
a sinless life
despised of the people
rejected even of his own siblings
heals the sick
restores the blind
raises the dead
betrayed
imprisoned
tried
cruelly executed
died for his people
raised again
is satisfied with his achievement of atonement.

I suspect, without trawling through those four chapters, that you could
create this picture without reading anything else. In fact when he died
Jesus himself quoted first verse of Psalm 22.

 

[rational experiences]

But you didn't answer my question ─

Do you think God did the right thing? That morals haven't changed since the Bronze Age? That human sacrifice is still a winner?

(Assuming it to have been historical, I've never understood what Jesus' death by crucifixion actually achieved, what aspect of reality was different afterwards.

Nor, if anything was achieved, why God couldn't have achieved it equally as well, or better, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers.

Perhaps you can explain these to me as well.)

God O the stone planet, a science reviewed thesis as applied by the human being male standing on a planet.

Now if you asked an egotist, do you not in life patent your thoughts....yet all the bodies that you give names to by a human living presence are naturally formed and self present in the state natural history....hence the biologist who reviewed your science mental health state...consciousness said no man is God hence do not claim that the CHRIST gases evaluated as sacrificed/burnt and removed are yours to own.

For having that mentality expressed means that you believe as a man/human that you own everything because you gave it a name.

And prove to yourselves today that you express that mentality in male egotism and believe it real. Everything I think about I then claim my bio life owns....as if I own all the powers of the Universe inside of my male body.

And never did.

Space x bread th....science meaning a formula or a measure
AB BA he said the man tle….see how you liked putting your self into naming...due to egotism? Said the God O planet owned the gases of multi colours that owned the measure.

So you said the BREAD what was sacrificed.....was a B READ...for you read your own science formula and calculations to prove that yes, science caused life sacrifice of the human male.

Whose spiritual existence belonged to CH ROSE gases...gases that arose out of the body of the stone planet.

But you personally scientist did not own them and God was never a male.

So RELATIVE teaching applied data said no Man is God and had to prove that man/male scientists proclaimed that they were God by stating that they owned the gases in the heavens and would do with them whatever they wanted in machine science.

Then a real sacrificed scientist said...listen you arrogant ignoramus, you need to go and look for another Earth to live on, for you are trying to destroy life on our planet Earth.....as best he could state without swearing at you.

TH O TH O TH O TH O...was said to be an Egyptian male theorised formula of numbers calculated by man to read the B east shift of the natural cross on Earth. + had changed it, by half a man cause in the reading of it.....b read...and proved he did it, caused it....sacrificed half of it.

So a human in science methodology taught the philosophy laws of science and said, due to ICE owning the other half of gases cooling, as a holy statement.

Notified that you had sacrificed half of the Earth gas mass CHRIST value into a statement, a fixed held UFO constant attack and said it Jesus Christ for God the stone.

You personally are not the sacrifice of those gases...the heavens owned the gases burnt/removed.

You however proved that life was sick and dying from plagues and every condition not normal or whole or perfect and beautiful, for half of the God heavenly gas mass had been sacrificed in the presence of SATAN the UFO radiating mass attacking us.

Life was saved he stated owning sacrificed life and death as the medical statement.

Not that life was saved as life...for we owned natural life first with CHRIST and not JESUS...just CHRIST.

Science then caused our life to be given early age death and to live sacrificed so gave us a living death in other words...to be saved dying. Which is to be sacrificed.

So how a human claiming I use common sense could not give self that answer is beyond any human belief that science is that ignorant...yet it proves to itself that it is.

 

[blü 2]

This is actually a standard tactic of critical 'scholars' and Jewish rabbis.
Nail you down to a single word.

Forgive me for saying so, but if I don't nail you down, you NEVER get down to specifics, you just make wafty statements.

So put it this way ─ make your case from the words of the Tanakh, or save time by acknowledging that you can't.

 

[blü 2]

God O the stone planet, a science reviewed thesis as applied by the human being male standing on a planet.

Now if you asked an egotist, do you not in life patent your thoughts....yet all the bodies that you give names to by a human living presence are naturally formed and self present in the state natural history....hence the biologist who reviewed your science mental health state...consciousness said no man is God hence do not claim that the CHRIST gases evaluated as sacrificed/burnt and removed are yours to own.

For having that mentality expressed means that you believe as a man/human that you own everything because you gave it a name.

And prove to yourselves today that you express that mentality in male egotism and believe it real. Everything I think about I then claim my bio life owns....as if I own all the powers of the Universe inside of my male body.

And never did.

Space x bread th....science meaning a formula or a measure
AB BA he said the man tle….see how you liked putting your self into naming...due to egotism? Said the God O planet owned the gases of multi colours that owned the measure.

So you said the BREAD what was sacrificed.....was a B READ...for you read your own science formula and calculations to prove that yes, science caused life sacrifice of the human male.

Whose spiritual existence belonged to CH ROSE gases...gases that arose out of the body of the stone planet.

But you personally scientist did not own them and God was never a male.

So RELATIVE teaching applied data said no Man is God and had to prove that man/male scientists proclaimed that they were God by stating that they owned the gases in the heavens and would do with them whatever they wanted in machine science.

Then a real sacrificed scientist said...listen you arrogant ignoramus, you need to go and look for another Earth to live on, for you are trying to destroy life on our planet Earth.....as best he could state without swearing at you.

TH O TH O TH O TH O...was said to be an Egyptian male theorised formula of numbers calculated by man to read the B east shift of the natural cross on Earth. + had changed it, by half a man cause in the reading of it.....b read...and proved he did it, caused it....sacrificed half of it.

So a human in science methodology taught the philosophy laws of science and said, due to ICE owning the other half of gases cooling, as a holy statement.

Notified that you had sacrificed half of the Earth gas mass CHRIST value into a statement, a fixed held UFO constant attack and said it Jesus Christ for God the stone.

You personally are not the sacrifice of those gases...the heavens owned the gases burnt/removed.

You however proved that life was sick and dying from plagues and every condition not normal or whole or perfect and beautiful, for half of the God heavenly gas mass had been sacrificed in the presence of SATAN the UFO radiating mass attacking us.

Life was saved he stated owning sacrificed life and death as the medical statement.

Not that life was saved as life...for we owned natural life first with CHRIST and not JESUS...just CHRIST.

Science then caused our life to be given early age death and to live sacrificed so gave us a living death in other words...to be saved dying. Which is to be sacrificed.

So how a human claiming I use common sense could not give self that answer is beyond any human belief that science is that ignorant...yet it proves to itself that it is.

Thanks.

Unfortunately I was unable to work out what point you were making, but it didn't appear to bear on the subject of this thread.

 

[rational experiences]

Thanks.

Unfortunately I was unable to work out what point you were making, but it didn't appear to bear on the subject of this thread.

Science is ignorant, for it was the male body of human thinkers who established the meaning of stating the sciences against God existing. Science did not invent itself.

 

[PruePhillip]

Forgive me for saying so, but if I don't nail you down, you NEVER get down to specifics, you just make wafty statements.

So put it this way ─ make your case from the words of the Tanakh, or save time by acknowledging that you can't.

This is Psalm 22, a picture of the Messiah on the cross

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
…
“He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
….
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
…
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
…
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
…
they pierced my hands and my feet.
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
…
I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
You who fear the Lord, praise him!
…
All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
…
Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

What some 'scholars' and Rabbis do to dismiss this Psalm is to focus upon a single word
"pierce." Does the Psalmist really say that? The Jews say it really means "like a lion my hands
and feet." Doesn't make sense to me. The THEME of the Psalm is an innocent man dying for
others. And this wasn't David. Arguing over the word 'pierced' is a tactic to dismiss the whole
Psalm as a Christian fabrication - and it doesn't work for me.

 

[blü 2]

Science is ignorant, for it was the male body of human thinkers who established the meaning of stating the sciences against God existing. Science did not invent itself.

Science is about knowledge of reality, which seems to me to be a good idea.

But that isn't the topic of this thread.

 

[rational experiences]

Science is about knowledge of reality, which seems to me to be a good idea.

But that isn't the topic of this thread.

Reality however is not science, science is a human choice based on a human agreement that involves the building of the string into a machine to say science can create...which is fake.

 

[blü 2]

This is Psalm 22, a picture of the Messiah on the cross

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?]

These are the words that the author of Mark (and, copying him, the author of Matthew) attributed to their respective crucified Jesuses (while Paul and the authors of Luke and John did not).

But you have to pick and choose your way through Psalm 22 ─ a Jesus who said,
But I am a worm and not a man,
would generate an interesting Christology.

And the reason why Mark's Jesus says it is because the author of Mark designed his crucifixion scene with his Septuagint open, at this point at Psalm 22, so he makes sure Jesus' garments are shared out by drawing lots. As I've remarked to you many times before, just about the whole of Mark can be mapped onto the LXX like this, a fact that increases the doubt about an historical Jesus at all.

I could also repeat that prophecy (supernatural foreknowledge) is a form of magic and there are no authenticated examples of either. Instead I might put the same point this way ─

Which is more likely in the real world?

That the author of Psalm 22 three or four or five hundred years before the event had supernatural foreknowledge of Jesus and was writing about him?

Or that the author of Mark, lacking actual biographical information about an earthly Jesus, selected passages from the LXX which appealed to him as messianic prophecies, and when writing structured his story so that his Jesus ticked all the boxes on his list?

 

[rational experiences]

31 22.31They will proclaim his righteousness,​

declaring to a people yet unborn:​

He has done it!

I was born on the day 31. So I owned a feed back subliminal advice...that I ignored...for I never believed in God other than to be fearful of what was preached...for as a child it was really scary what adults thought and said.

So as that child I decided you could keep your God advice to yourself....actually.

And to be spiritual was to be natural, loving seeing my family as an extension of my own family and love and honour their diversity. Which I did. But not in any one moment did I believe that it was karma for any human to be suffering....so I also did not believe in the Jesus theme...and wondered at who did....that we were saved.

I was horrified at seeing human suffering, and wondered why no one else seemed to be noticing it. What was wrong with you all?

When some dim-witted occult liar, applied Temple and pyramid science and then crucified life.....said the punishment that life from the heavens gave you was deserved...it was because he was a Satanist and knew as a scientist that he was causing it.

So eventually so did the public...and when the public after so much suffering realize that science is Satanism, your mind control program will not work on them....for it is increasing destructive interactive replicating signals affecting more and more inhumanity in their expressed feelings.

As the modern day scientist like his dimwit brother in history claimed that they were doing Sun time as it if were separate from natural light....Sun time he says. There is no Sun time....the Earth gases just burn on own side of the body of a circulating planet mass O for 12 hours.

Sun time is relative to his own taking of God cold clear mass in fusion, that is not owner burning light gas and give it burning light. For fusion is cold clear pressurized gases, not alight....as the liar of our sacrifice.

Tried to put big holes of SIN beneath our feet. Tried to. God is a hole he says...not God is WHOLE 23...to allow 24. Did God is a Revelation 22 and too bad for 23 and 24 actually.

And every day over television SION communications I can hear the American native American recorded Father in their own country speaking. How come Satanists?​

 

[blü 2]

Reality however is not science, science is a human choice based on a human agreement that involves the building of the string into a machine to say science can create...which is fake.

Fake? Science made your computer, your phone, your car, your food, your medicine, your clothes, all sorts of things, possible. You sound dogmatic and ungrateful.

But that's sill not the topic of this thread.