Absolute proof against the existence of God, as described in the Abrahamic religions

[YoursTrue]

Well there are two opposition's I have to the Bible. One is that the events of the Bible could not have happened. Two is the justice of the Bible.

That brings us back to a discussion of, first of all, if there is a God, and I mean someone with an intelligence greater than ourselves. We cannot see him physically. Many believe we are here kind of by accident, starting at the beginning with abiogenesis, and that there is no intelligent Creator.

 

[osgart]

That brings us back to a discussion of, first of all, if there is a God, and I mean someone with an intelligence greater than ourselves. We cannot see him physically. Many believe we are here kind of by accident, starting at the beginning with abiogenesis, and that there is no intelligent Creator.

From what I can tell abiogenesis is a worthwhile pursuit. I tend to think there is intelligence in nature's makings but I can't prove that other then by the fact that humans exist, and have natural nutritional provision.

 

[YoursTrue]

I have little problem with Adam & Eve getting expelled from the Garden. They failed the test of heart; fair enough.

I fail to see the justice in having people being born with sinful natures. Why allow that?

And killing first born Egyptians isn't exactly merciful.

OK, we have to put that in perspective. First we really need to understand that there IS a God who is supreme, whether we like it or not. Let's put it this way: we (you and I and the whole human race) did not make ourselves. We came about as a result of the forces of nature beyond ourselves. We weren't around with thinking decision-making ability when we were conceived as a human life. Thus we had no control over our birth.
This is gonna be a long discussion, I think. And that's good. I like getting into these things sometimes. So let's give it time. Going back to the beginning, I don't think Adam and Eve enjoyed the dictate of being banished from the Garden of Eden. The Garden of Eden was beautiful. (We can go into that later.) But banished they were. And it is good to understand that as to why, in order for us to go on. That is the basis of true understanding of who God is.

 

[YoursTrue]

From what I can tell abiogenesis is a worthwhile pursuit. I tend to think there is intelligence in nature's makings but I can't prove that other then by the fact that humans exist, and have natural nutritional provision.

As you probably know, the jury is out about abiogenesis. No one really knows among non-believers how life began on the earth. They can conjecture about it, but no one really knows. And the Bible does not go into detail as to how God began life on this earth, it gives a great overview though of the creation of life.
I am probably going to say good night, talk to you hopefully again tomorrow. I'll look for your posts. Have a good night. Sleep is important and essential to good health. Another reason why I feel instinctively that Someone put in us a need to sleep, eat, and refresh ourselves.

 

[osgart]

OK, we have to put that in perspective. First we really need to understand that there IS a God who is supreme, whether we like it or not. Let's put it this way: we (you and I and the whole human race) did not make ourselves. We came about as a result of the forces of nature beyond ourselves. We weren't around with thinking decision-making ability when we were conceived as a human life. Thus we had no control over our birth.
This is gonna be a long discussion, I think. And that's good. I like getting into these things sometimes. So let's give it time. Going back to the beginning, I don't think Adam and Eve enjoyed the dictate of being banished from the Garden of Eden. The Garden of Eden was beautiful. (We can go into that later.) But banished they were. And it is good to understand that as to why, in order for us to go on. That is the basis of true understanding of who God is.

Well they could have chose any other tree and especially the tree of life. We know what tree they were beguiled into eating from. It was forbidden by God to eat it. God told them why. He commanded them not to eat it.

They, Adam&Eve, had the presence of God with them so they knew God's character and they saw God's magnificence by spending time with God.

They were tempted by the serpent, and chose freely to rebel against God's command. Once they committed to eating the forbidden fruit they became sinners. They ate, and realized good and evil, and they became ashamed of their nakedness.

So the sin is they could have had everything forever, and chose a petty thing to become as Gods. The sin was pride. They should have trusted God having known God. They trusted a wicked serpent instead. Not a lot of depth was given as to the motivations of Adam & Eve.

Have a Good Night there!

 

[Heyo]

This has to do with history of colonialism. I don't see relevance.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Over half of the world follows an Abrahamic religion

And they agree "so much" among them, that they're killing eachother in droves over it.

To pretend as if judaism, islam and christianity are the same religions, is like pretending that italian, spanish and french are the same languages.

An honest look at this wouldn't even call protestantism and catholicism the same religion. Or shiite and sunni islam. And you wish to pile ALL of them in the same set as if they are the same religion?

Come on now....

and most of the billions left believe in the Supreme Being in some form

Or beingS.

And all of them mutually exclusive. Christianity can't be correct if hinduism is correct.
All this tells us, is that humans have tendencies for being superstitious.

, so I think He's done a pretty good job making Himself known

If all those different religions are god's doing, then he's doing a very terrible job, as that would mean that he's deliberatly setting people up against eachother, making him ultimately responsible for all religious and sectarian violence.

It would mean that he willingly and consiously sends mixed and contradicting messages into the world. It would mean that he's responsible for the biggest set of "fake news" the world has ever seen. That is even worse then a god that simply hides all the time.

since most humans believe in God, regardless of religious differences.

"regardless".
Why "regardless"? Because it happens to suit your argument?

In reality, the part that you wish to ignore, is completely distroying your point.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Can we start here?

Atheists Start Their Own Megachurch: Is It a Religion Now? – Alternet.org

A group of people having fun with and doing some community building for those who are interested?
What about it?

How does this relate to what you were asked?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You seem to be nitpicking now.

I disagree. I don't think he's nitpicking. Instead, I think you're grasping at straws and ignoring a whole bunch of things simply because it doesn't suit your point.

You were basically saying that God doesn't exist because not everyone believes in Him. However, almost every human on the planet has at least heard of Him and most humans believe in Him, so there goes much of your argument.

This is simply not true.
Not a single god has the following of 50% of humans. Not a single one.
That most people hold religious beliefs is not the same as all of them believing in the same god.
The god of the bible is NOT the same as the god of the bible. No matter how much you try to spin it with generic words and stuff.

These gods are SO HARD NOT THE SAME, that their followers are literally killing eachother over it.

The only thing all the religious have in common, is that they all believe their religious claims on bad evidence and superstition. The beliefs themselves are NOT THE SAME at all.

The Bible is the most widely read book in the world and in history

Because missionairies all over the world throughout history have stuffed it down people's throat and even held food ransom when making hungry people sit through a sermon first.

None of this changes the fact that the vast majority of the world does NOT believe nore follow the bible.

so He has done pretty well with revealing Himself that way, as well.

Humans did that. HUMANS brought that book to all corners of the world. God didn't do anything.
And as has been said in this thread as well - surely god didn't make those humans do that, as that would be a violation of their free will. ;-)

So no, god didn't do anything. Humans did it.

Even atheists and anti-theists spend their time thinking about Him and arguing about Him to an extent that puts most religious people to shame in their devotion.

Because they are sick and tired of the religious stuffing their bibles down their throats and lobbying authorities relentlessly to legislate their bronze age religious rules, like oppression of gay people etc.

If Start Trek would take the place of christianity, then we'ld be here talking about how Vulcans and Captain Kirk are fictional characters.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Who said it disturbed me? Look at it in context to the question, look at it in the context of conversation

In context of the conversation, your link was irrelevant.

You said atheists can't agree on things.
I asked about what...

And you came back with a link to a group of atheists who are engaging in community building.
So what? What does it have to do with atheists not being able to agree and how is it relevant or problematic to "atheism"?

, don't pull out of it what isn't there, don't exaggerate or make it a different subject.

Says the guy who can't answer a question with a straight answer.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't see what that has to do with religion. Atheists and anti-theists are also irrational humans. Humanity is definitely screwed up and the world is getting worse, hence why I don't put my faith in humans.

I think it's quite painfully obvious that the world is getting better.

Ironically, where it is not getting better (or where it is getting worse), it is due to religious / faith based beliefs - or at least correlates with it.

Just today, I read an article based on a poll that in the US as much as 40% of republican voters believe that Covid19 is a conspiracy:
- to weaken the US by temporarily shutting down some economic activity
- to act as a cover up to "find a vaccine", only to plant micro-chips in americans so that the "globalists" can digitally track them through "5g"

These "opinions" correlate with evolution deniers, anti-vaxxers in general, etc.

Is it a direct result of religion? In some case, it surely is. In others, it correlates coming from deeper rooted causes, like tendencies of faith-based beliefs, denial of science and thinking reason is from satan or something.

So, yea: the orld is definatly getting better - especially so in places where it is understood that "superstition" and "faith" are things of the primitive past that are best avoided at all costs.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This has to do with history of colonialism.

That is patently false.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That brings us back to a discussion of, first of all, if there is a God, and I mean someone with an intelligence greater than ourselves. We cannot see him physically. Many believe we are here kind of by accident, starting at the beginning with abiogenesis, and that there is no intelligent Creator.

There is no need at all for a requirement that one must believe the god of the bible exists, to discuss the plausibility and ethical implications of what the stories of the bible claim.

Just like we don't need to believe that the Empire of Star Wars actually exists, to discuss the ethics of Darth Vader, the Emperor or Luke Skywalker.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

As you probably know, the jury is out about abiogenesis.

Not really. The jury is out concerning the exact process by which it happens, but nobody in his right mind doubts that life began at some point in the past, around 3.8 billion years ago.

There is a difference between knowing that an event occured and knowing how it occured.
That it occured (life began at some point in the past, at least around 3.8 billion yeas ago), isn't exactly a hotly debated item. It's more like an accepted fact. Life DID begin at least 3.8 billion years ago.

No one really knows among non-believers how life began on the earth

Not just non-believers. Everybody. People who pretend to know (believers), don't actually know either.

And the Bible does not go into detail as to how God began life on this earth

Which isn't susprising. Instead, it only asserts that god-dun-it (like every single other creation myth does in its own way - which is what makes them creation myths).

, it gives a great overview though of the creation of life.

It does not. It makes a bunch of assertions, most of which are completely contradicted by the actual evidence of reality.

Another reason why I feel instinctively that Someone put in us a need to sleep, eat, and refresh ourselves.

Your "instinctive feelings" are informed by your beliefs.
So it's not surprising that you "feel" like a "someone" is involved.
But off course, "gut feelings" are no pathway to truth when it comes to understanding reality.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I didn't say your non-belief in God is detrimental to your ethics. Please don't put words in my mouth so you can feel persecuted.

I was responding to what you wrote:

Well, I also agree with @Link in that God has provided guidance and has made His will known. We've been told many times by many holy people throughout the millennia about how we should treat each other and how to create a just world. Zoroaster, the Buddha, the Biblical Prophets, Christ, Muhammad, etc. all tried to raise the ethics of humanity compared to the prior situation of their cultures. But we don't listen. We're too busy being greedy, hateful, judgmental and callous.

You said "God has provided" and mentioned "holy people." I can only assume you said those things because you meant them -- that ethics come from God. Do not dare try then to muddy your own waters by then telling me, oh, well maybe you didn't get it direct from God or holy people, but you must have got it from other people who did -- so indirectly.

I was orphaned and institutionalized for most of my life, in non-religious environmnents, so what I "goit" is mine. I refuse to be dictated to over the internet by somebody whose failure of imagination goes so far as to be unable to imagine anybody can think for themselves. Or find ethical ideas on their own.

In fact, far, far too often, even right here on RF, I've heard believers say "you cannot be good with God." I find that pitiful. That some poor person truly believes that the only reason they're nice to other, don't steal and don't murder, is because they're terrified of offending a power that can hurt them. JI can be nice, and not steal and murder, for no other reason that I know what is right and wrong, and I try to do what I know to be right.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

From your title of the thread, you say you believe there is proof against the absolute existence of god as described in the Abrahamic religions. First off, I'd like to know if you have a belief in God, Abrahamic or not.

Obviously not.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You seem to be nitpicking now. You were basically saying that God doesn't exist because not everyone believes in Him. However, almost every human on the planet has at least heard of Him and most humans believe in Him, so there goes much of your argument.

It's an interesting fact that 45% of Americans believe in ghosts -- dead people coming back in "spirit" form. Does that belief make ghosts real?

 

[Segev Moran]

Our religious texts, from Moses through Mohammed (and possibly others, but I don't care) make one thing absolutely clear: what God truly wants -- IS. They tell us God wanted the heavens and earth, and they therefore happened. That he wanted man, and nothing could stop it.

That not what the Jewish religious teaches. (all my answers or questions refer only to the Jewish teachings, I am not familiar enough with the other religions)
Where did you learn that?
I think you are mistaking "Want" with "Willed".
These are two different things.

Oh, and later, that he wanted all the "first born" of Egypt to die -- and they died.

Where does it say it wanted them to die?
It'll be the same as saying that electricity wants people who touch it to die.

This god has such perfect aim that he was able to immediately kill, in one night, every person and every animal in the land of Egypt who was the first out of any womb (and presumably egg, though that's not specifically mentioned. I assume "hatched" is the equivalent of "born"). Or this God wants the whole earth covered with water so that everybody and everything non-aquatic dies, except for a few he decides to save. And it happens.

Again,
Where does it say God wanted it?

What God wants to happen, I say again, according to these religions, happens -- and nothing can stop it.

Not according the Jewish religion
The Jewish religion teaches the God is bound to the rules it created.
It does, However, have the power to cancel them or make exceptions.
That usually comes with a cost.

And we are also told that this God wants to be known by us, and to be worshipped, in full apprehension of his nature.

Where does it say it wants to be worshiped?
Actually, Worship is clearly stated as something God does not ask for let alone sacrifice of living creatures.
Not only that, Jewish is very strict about how you should treat animals and more so, even if you wish to eat an animal, there are very strict rules how to do it.
The fact today most people don't really care about it, doesn't mean it as allowed.

And yet....this doesn't happen! All that we appear to "know" about the nature of God, about how to worship, of what he wants, about how we should behave --- we know from billions of humans running around and arguing vociferously for this view, or that version, or these prayers, ot this set of rules. And we never, ever manage to work it out definitively.

That's exactly one of the problems the Jewish teachings warn us from.
Many "religious" Jewish people don't really know the Jewish teachings (same goes for any other religion BTW) yet they say they know it without realizing the harm they are causing.

And what's the reason? Because it's US. God doesn't want anything -- because as we know, what God wants, God gets.

Not really.

And this failure of ours to settle on one God, our incessant schismatic fracturing, really ought to be all the proof any thinking person needs that the proposed God simply doesn't exist -- and that that's why the state of our religious bickering is what it is.

You know what God is, Probably much better than most religious people.
I am not talking about the infantile descriptions of God, rather the actual God.
The same as you, all people know it.
It is simply the distraction that other people do that makes you not understand it.
If you'll go by our science, you will quickly understand how God really operates and why things work as they do.
You don't need anyone to tell you what God is.
The fact is, you, as any other, eventually, knows God simply choosing to describe it to fit their own needs.
Understanding what you are doing wrong, is the first part to understanding the idea of God.
Gladly, i learn everyday what i am doing wrong. I must say, many times I am simply amazed how i didn't realize it earlier.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Our religious texts, from Moses through Mohammed (and possibly others, but I don't care) make one thing absolutely clear: what God truly wants -- IS. They tell us God wanted the heavens and earth, and they therefore happened. That he wanted man, and nothing could stop it.

Oh, and later, that he wanted all the "first born" of Egypt to die -- and they died. This god has such perfect aim that he was able to immediately kill, in one night, every person and every animal in the land of Egypt who was the first out of any womb (and presumably egg, though that's not specifically mentioned. I assume "hatched" is the equivalent of "born"). Or this God wants the whole earth covered with water so that everybody and everything non-aquatic dies, except for a few he decides to save. And it happens.

What God wants to happen, I say again, according to these religions, happens -- and nothing can stop it.

And we are also told that this God wants to be known by us, and to be worshipped, in full apprehension of his nature.

And yet....this doesn't happen! All that we appear to "know" about the nature of God, about how to worship, of what he wants, about how we should behave --- we know from billions of humans running around and arguing vociferously for this view, or that version, or these prayers, ot this set of rules. And we never, ever manage to work it out definitively.

And what's the reason? Because it's US. God doesn't want anything -- because as we know, what God wants, God gets. And this failure of ours to settle on one God, our incessant schismatic fracturing, really ought to be all the proof any thinking person needs that the proposed God simply doesn't exist -- and that that's why the state of our religious bickering is what it is.

All is as it is simply because God wants it to be like this. God wants the world to be as it is, with all the fracturing and bickering and everything else, so God gets it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Bible is what I am referring to.

Often times God commands his people to kill. Then Jesus comes along and extends mercy. There was no mercy back in the OT. But the NT all of a sudden declares to do it. And that all have sinned and actually need mercy.

Surely Jesus extended mercy, but he also went to his death willingly, so that others might live.
2 Corinthians 5:14,15 helps to explain this.
"For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."