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POLL FOR CHRISTIANS

SELECT THOSE WHO YOU THINK CAN BE A CHRISTIAN EVEN THOUGH THEIR THEOLOGY IS DIFFERENT

  • MORMONS

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • JW

    Votes: 11 68.8%
  • CATHOLICS

    Votes: 14 87.5%
  • BAPTISTS

    Votes: 14 87.5%
  • GREEK ORTHODOX

    Votes: 14 87.5%
  • ORIENTAL ORTHODOXY

    Votes: 14 87.5%
  • SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS

    Votes: 12 75.0%
  • ANGLICANS

    Votes: 14 87.5%
  • JESUS ONLY OR NON-TRINITARIAN

    Votes: 9 56.3%

  • Total voters
    16

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There was a good question that made me think.

So... here is a poll :)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Ticked all the boxes, apart from that last one :D

I recognise all of them as 'Christians' - just to varying degrees of affinity in sacrament and doctrine with the Catholic Church.

For example, the Greek and Oriental Orthodox are closest to us in ecclesiology and theology, followed by the Anglicans (who maintain the apostolic succession and other Catholic elements). Next come other Trinitarians - Baptists and Seventh-Day Adventists, with whom we share the sacrament of baptism, Nicene creedalism (as with Orthodox and Anglicans) and the same conception of God.

Finally, we have Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons - both of them still Christians in my estimation but more distant from Catholic dogma in terms of doctrinal understanding of the nature of God, divine revelation and Christology; yet we all share Jesus as the epicentre of our faith and life, the same New Testament - with Mormons perhaps closer to Catholics with regards understanding of the salvation of non-Christians, as well as rather similar in ethics etc.

But yes, we are all "branches" of the one olive tree :)

By the way, where are the Lutherans and Calvinists (missing from your options!)? They'd have been grouped by me just after the Anglicans. Also the Anabaptists would have gone side-by-side with the Baptists and Adventists.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Ticked all the boxes, apart from that last one :D

I recognise all of them as 'Christians' - just to varying degrees of affinity in sacrament and doctrine with the Catholic Church.

For example, the Greek and Oriental Orthodox are closest to us in ecclesiology and theology, followed by the Anglicans (who maintain the apostolic succession and other Catholic elements). Next come other Trinitarians - Baptists and Seventh-Day Adventists, with whom we share the sacrament of baptism, Nicene creedalism (as with Orthodox and Anglicans) and the same conception of God.

Finally, we have Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons - both of them still Christians in my estimation but more distant from Catholic dogma in terms of doctrinal understanding of the nature of God, divine revelation and Christology; yet we all share Jesus as the epicentre of our faith and life, the same New Testament - with Mormons perhaps closer to Catholics with regards understanding of the salvation of non-Christians, as well as rather similar in ethics etc.

But yes, we are all "branches" of the one olive tree :)

By the way, where are the Lutherans and Calvinists (missing from your options!)? They'd have been grouped by me just after the Anglicans. Also the Anabaptists would have gone side-by-side with the Baptists and Adventists.
LOL... I didn't want to put all thousands of possibilities... I figured those listed would give the greatest of differentials.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
So... here is a poll :)
And what do we know now?
  • We know that at least four people were willing to take the poll.
  • We know all but one is willing to say that all of the groups named "can be Christian even though their theology is different".
  • And we know who that one was who didn't tick the bottom group.
  • And we can hope that those four were bona fide members of one of the groups listed, and not a heathen non-Christian.
  • And we can pretty well bet money on it that a JW didn't take the poll. I don't know enough about today's LDS to know whether or not they would open the big-top tent to all the other groups.
The problem is that the poll doesn't tell us what standards those four people used to decide who is a Christian. For the record, I ticked all of the groups solely on the grounds that they call themselves "Christian". You and I know that a JW isn't going to be that magnanimous.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
I ticked all but the last. I give LDS the benefit of the doubt as it claims to be Christian, though I don't know much about it, and the LDS people I've come across seem reasonable and honest.

I didn't tick the last as it seems to be a rag-bag and may include unrecognisable beliefs. I would be tempted to give Unitarians a tick, even though they are the most marginal case for inclusion in my view.

Like @Vouthon, I see no value in a "True Scotsman" exclusivist approach to Christianity.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There was a good question that made me think.

So... here is a poll :)
I chose to not check any of them for this reason. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven". In the above list, you will have those within those groups who "do the will of the Father", and those who do not, regardless of what they claim they believe or how religious they are. To check one of the boxes and say, "They are Christian" is misleading. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them," not by their doctrines and beliefs, or religious identities.

I would easily add Buddhist and Hindu and Jewish and Atheist boxes as well, as anyone in those groups could be doing the will of the Father too, regardless of what they believe in theologically. We aren't saved by theology. We are saved by Love. And if you love one another, then you are doing the will of the Father.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Out of curiosity why? You may not be aware, but in my youth, I was part of that group for some years. ;)

To clarify, I view such people as Christians but I don't agree with their exclusivism - which is why I did not want to tick the box, as it strikes me as an un-Christlike attitude.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To clarify, I view such people as Christians but I don't agree with their exclusivism - which is why I did not want to tick the box, as it strikes me as an un-Christlike attitude.
Yes, which is why I didn't check any of them. :) That exists in all of those groups.

As far as the level of us vs. them mentality in the Oneness Pentecostal group goes, I certainly don't disagree with you. But that pretty much defines all fundamentalism. JWs are next to a twin to the group I was in. The 144,000 saved was supposed to be about themselves, until their numbers grew larger than that. Only they were the true flock. Same sort of thing with ours. God "restored" the truth to us in the end days with their doctrines and beliefs and such. ;)

But to clarify with the poll, I do believe any of them can be Christian, but they aren't because of what they believe. They're not a Christian until they actually practice love.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
There was a good question that made me think.

So... here is a poll :)
Easiest poll I've ever participated on. All of them. As far as I'm concerned, if someone professes to be a Christian, who am I to tell him he's not?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I don't know enough about today's LDS to know whether or not they would open the big-top tent to all the other groups.
It's the other Christians who refuse to include the Latter-day Saints under the umbrella of Christianity, Terry, not the other way around.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
It's the other Christians who refuse to include the Latter-day Saints under the umbrella of Christianity, T
erry, not the other way around.
Context matters.
  • And what do we know now?
    • And we can pretty well bet money on it that a JW didn't take the poll
    • I don't know enough about today's LDS to know whether or not they would open the big-top tent to all the other groups.
    • For the record, I ticked all of the groups solely on the grounds that they call themselves "Christian".
    • Fact: At the moment that I write this, I believe that 7 out of 8 people, including me, voted to include JWs and LDS as "Christians".
    • It's the other Christians who refuse to include the Latter-day Saints under the umbrella of Christianity, Terry, not the other way around.
  • So, "the other Christians who refuse to include the Latter-day Saints under the umbrella of Christianity" are, based on this poll, 1 out of 8 people. Rejoice! Things are looking up for the LDS.
  • Meanwhile, thanks for telling me that you speak for all LDS when you say that LDS include all the other groups under the umbrella of Christianity. I thought they do; now, thanks to you I can speak more confidently and say that they do.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
So, "the other Christians who refuse to include the Latter-day Saints under the umbrella of Christianity" are, based on this poll, 1 out of 8 people. Rejoice! Things are looking up for the LDS.

Meanwhile, thanks for telling me that you speak for all LDS when you say that LDS include all the other groups under the umbrella of Christianity. I thought they do; now, thanks to you I can speak more confidently and say that they do.
Weird. I didn't even comment on the poll. I merely addressed your comment. I do know enough about Mormonism to know that my Church accepts anyone as Christian whose worships Jesus Christ as his Savior. But if you want to insist that I said something else entirely, Terry, knock yourself out. :rolleyes:
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I chose to not check any of them for this reason. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven"..

that is a true statement... but I wasn't asking you to be God (or Jesus) to make that decision. The poll was simple..."generally speaking, what do you think?" - We all know that God will determine the heart.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I forgot to say "why" the poll... In another discussion, someone asked why Christianity is so divisive. My statement simply was "there are many parts but one body" and "divisiveness" wasn't that prevalent. (Though there are always exceptions with 2 billion adherents).

Thus... the poll
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I forgot to say "why" the poll... In another discussion, someone asked why Christianity is so divisive. My statement simply was "there are many parts but one body" and "divisiveness" wasn't that prevalent. (Though there are always exceptions with 2 billion adherents).

Thus... the poll
Did this person mean divisive or divided?

But I agree I think, for the most part, the various denominations nowadays manage to accept the existence of the others without getting their knickers in too much of a twist. It seems to me the divisiveness mainly comes in among the various splinter groups at the extreme ends of the spectrum - just as one finds with politics.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Did this person mean divisive or divided?

But I agree I think, for the most part, the various denominations nowadays manage to accept the existence of the others without getting their knickers in too much of a twist. It seems to me the divisiveness mainly comes in among the various splinter groups at the extreme ends of the spectrum - just as one finds with politics.
My understanding was "divisive"
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
My understanding was "divisive"
OK. I remember from my childhood in Scotland there was some tribal divisiveness between Catholics and Protestants (e.g. the rival Glasgow football teams), as there is to this day in N Ireland. And there is some divisiveness between Catholics and Orthodox in the former Yugoslavia. In both cases the religious affiliation is a label, signifying bigger cultural and historical differences between communities. I am sure this sort of thing happens all over the world, in all religions. I think one ought to set these to one side, because the aggro isn't really about religion, though religion is the channel for it.

The extreme splinter groups on the other hand seem to be composed of people that seek some kind of illusory purity - the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - and proceed to condemn everyone who is not, in their opinion, pure.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
that is a true statement... but I wasn't asking you to be God (or Jesus) to make that decision. The poll was simple..."generally speaking, what do you think?" - We all know that God will determine the heart.
If you are asking if these different groups should be considered part of the Christian religion, then you have to have some sort of standard by which you measure against, such as how close are they to traditional beliefs and practices. Each will fall somewhere on that spectrum, as a religious sect.

But if you ask are they Christian or not, that depends on the individual. And it is not playing God to follow Jesus' instructions on how to discern the authenticity of someone's religious claims. You discern by looking at the fruits of the spirit they either bear, or lack. Jesus taught us to do this, "By their fruits you shall know them".

That's why I say to the question are they Christian or not, that you can include atheism, and all other religions as well. Because if they bear spiritual fruit, then according to Jesus, they are following the Way. But not all who cry "Lord, Lord," actually are. While their words and teachings and claims may be saying they a followers of Jesus, their fruits tell us a different story. Right?
 
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