Jesus Empty tomb narratives

[Trailblazer]

I believe I can sum it up succinctly. Jesus saves people from their sins while in all other religions people have to save themselves.

If that is true, Baha'is believe in Jesus so we should be okay.

The following quote from the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith is the ‘official’ position of the Baha’i Faith regarding Jesus Christ and Christianity.

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth...” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 109-110

 

[CG Didymus]

I never said that Baha'u'llah wrote about the historical Jesus. Baha'u'llah was not a historian.
Baha'u'llah wrote about the spiritual effects of Jesus, including the effect Jesus had upon the material world.

Not a historian? "Dear Christians, You know how you think Jesus was raised from the dead. He wasn't. Dear Jews, "You know how you think your Scriptures say Isaac was taken by his father Abraham to be sacrificed. Well no, that is not true. Abraham took his son Ishmael. Both you and the Christians got your history wrong. And how do I know this? It's because I am Baha'u'llah, and I'm bringing you the truth from God."

Even Muhammad brings some "historical" stories about Jesus... something about making clay birds and then bringing them to life. And then bringing some kid back to life. Oh, and then back to Baha'u'llah... doesn't he tell an alternative story about Adam and about Noah that is different than the story in the Bible? So, unless they are fictional and symbolic also, he was telling the supposedly true historical happenings about them. True or am I misinterpreting those stories?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, many parts of the Bible which Bahai scriptures tell us they are metaphorical doesn't sound metaphorical to most people, but why do you think God cannot or would not write symbolic stories which are very difficult to realize they are symbolic, and centuries later He comes and tell us, they were symbolic and also provide evidence and logical reasoning why they are symbolic?

So Baha'i scriptures say that stories in the Bible that sound as if true are really metaphorical... And you are saying God wrote them? And now God, through Baha'u'llah, has the evidence? Sure, I believe there is logical reasoning to discount the empty tomb/resurrection story. But the Baha'i symbolic "reasoning" is not all that logical to me. I'm sticking with, if it didn't happen, it was a hoax somehow perpetrated by the disciples of Jesus... Who then were martyred for spreading the story about Jesus, that he had risen.

Hmmm? Since God nor Jesus wrote the empty tomb story, how did God get four different gospel writers to write a symbolic story that was written as if it was true? And then, give each one of them a slightly different account of what happened at the empty tomb?

 

[CG Didymus]

Nobody likes a new religion that supersedes their older religions.

I believe I would know one if I saw one but I haven't seen one yet and doubt that I will.

From a Christian point of view, I agree with Muffled. Christians are warned about false teachers and false Messiahs. Even the devil can appear as an angel of light. There is a long list of people that claimed to be the return of Christ. Baha'u'llah is just one of many. Christians are told that it will be easy to see Jesus when he returns. The list you gave is about when that return happens.

Christians are blowing off the Baha'i Faith just like Baha'is blow off all the other people that claimed they were the return of Christ. Here's one that comes up often here on the forums...

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad (13 February 1835 – 26 May 1908) was an Indian religious leader and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdi.​

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe I can sum it up succinctly. Jesus saves people from their sins while in all other religions people have to save themselves.

You are making it sound like Christianity is for lazy people, who don't want to do the work and save themselves. They want someone else come and save them. I mean honestly, no offence though.

For Investigate Truth... Do you understand the Christian concept of being "Born-Again"? I don't think so. And that is why most Baha'is can't understand what Christianity is about. Baha'is get rid of the need of a Savior by eliminating the "born" with a sin nature, or as some Christians say born with the taint of "original" sin. The NT goes into a detailed explanation of why a person can't save themselves... that no matter how good they try to be, they will never be perfect. Then the NT explains how a perfect sacrifice was needed to pay the penalty for sin. And that was that God sent his "only" son Jesus to save the world from its sins. So now Jesus died, but... the greatest part of the NT story, is that God raised him up from the dead. He didn't allow Jesus' body to see decay. The resurrection is the proof that Jesus is from God and the Savior of the world. And, the empty tomb is the proof that he rose from the dead.

Now about being "lazy"? Yes, lots of people, including Baha'is can become "lazy" and do very little and feel comfortable doing little or nothing when it comes to their religious beliefs. But, for Christians, James calls them out on that and says that a person that says the have "faith" and "believes", and doesn't do the things a Christian should be doing, then that is not true faith. A Christian that believes that Jesus has forgiven them and has saved them will do the things that Jesus has commanded them to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, and then back to Baha'u'llah... doesn't he tell an alternative story about Adam and about Noah that is different than the story in the Bible? So, unless they are fictional and symbolic also, he was telling the supposedly true historical happenings about them. True or am I misinterpreting those stories?

I believe anything Baha'u'llah wrote about Adam and Noah was true as in really happened, not fictional or symbolic, because I believe Baha'u'llah was infallible.

 

[CG Didymus]

If that is true, Baha'is believe in Jesus so we should be okay.

No. You believe what the Baha'i Faith teaches about Jesus. That is very different from what Christians believe the NT teaches about Jesus. But it's easy... Just ask Jesus into your heart and ask him to forgive you of your sins. Anyway, that part of it is easy. It gets harder later.

Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary

Another thing that I've asked before. The "immaculacy" of Mary is a Catholic tradition. It is not something that the NT teaches. Since "normal" people, they believe, are born with "original" sin, the Catholic Church made her birth "immaculate." She's born sinless. Is that what Baha'is believe? i don't think so. If you don't believe me, then maybe Wikipedia. They were never lie... do they?

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church which states that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception.
​

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah is just one of many. Christians are told that it will be easy to see Jesus when he returns.

Easy to see Jesus when He returns? No, not at all, at all....
If it would be easy, Jesus would not have said to watch.
Christians never watched, they just waited, and waited and waited and waited.
And they will continue to wait until hell freezes over.
That's their loss.

Rev 3:2-3

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Luke 12:39-40

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Matthew 24:42-44King James Version (KJV)

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

2 Peter 3:10-13King James Version (KJV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Mark 13:32-37

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians are blowing off the Baha'i Faith just like Baha'is blow off all the other people that claimed they were the return of Christ. Here's one that comes up often here on the forums...
Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad (13 February 1835 – 26 May 1908) was an Indian religious leader and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdi.

Not the same, because only Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the biblical prophecies.

But Christians can blow off Baha'u'llah if they want to and continue to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait for the same Jesus to come barrelling down from the clouds. God won't stop them from waiting because free will is sacrosanct.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. You believe what the Baha'i Faith teaches about Jesus. That is very different from what Christians believe the NT teaches about Jesus.

So what?
I believe that what the Baha'i Faith teaches about Jesus is the real Jesus.
Christians can believe whatever they want to about Jesus....

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So Baha'i scriptures say that stories in the Bible that sound as if true are really metaphorical... And you are saying God wrote them? And now God, through Baha'u'llah, has the evidence? Sure, I believe there is logical reasoning to discount the empty tomb/resurrection story. But the Baha'i symbolic "reasoning" is not all that logical to me. I'm sticking with, if it didn't happen, it was a hoax somehow perpetrated by the disciples of Jesus... Who then were martyred for spreading the story about Jesus, that he had risen.

Hmmm? Since God nor Jesus wrote the empty tomb story, how did God get four different gospel writers to write a symbolic story that was written as if it was true? And then, give each one of them a slightly different account of what happened at the empty tomb?

Bahai scriptures confirms Bible is inspired word of God, so that means, God inspired the desciples of Christ to write the Bible. But you really didnt answer the question I asked in my last post. I believe that is an important step to answer to go farther and make conclusions.

 

[Trailblazer]

God inspired the disciples of Christ to write the Bible.

From the research I have done, it is highly unlikely that the disciples actually wrote the NT. More than likely it was written by unnamed authors who never knew Jesus.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

From the research I have done, it is highly unlikely that the disciples actually wrote the NT. More than likely it was written by unnamed authors who never knew Jesus.

Maybe. It is hard to prove or disprove. The term desciples of Christ may or may not refer to the 12 apostles though, at least, that is what I meant. I mean the author of Gospel of John, is John, but he may not be the actual person who took the pen to write it.

 

[CG Didymus]

From the research I have done, it is highly unlikely that the disciples actually wrote the NT. More than likely it was written by unnamed authors who never knew Jesus.

So what good is the New Testament? It could all be fictional. You know, myth and legend. So... why expect a Jew to convert to Christianity? They have their own myths and legends to live by? But some Baha'is do say that they should have recognized Jesus was their Messiah. But what they recognized in the NT was not their Messiah but a religion of fictional stories. Resurrected from the Dead? Virgin Birth? Fantasy stuff. Right? No, Baha'is say somehow Christianity is a true religion from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what good is the New Testament? It could all be fictional. You know, myth and legend. So... why expect a Jew to convert to Christianity? They have their own myths and legends to live by? But some Baha'is do say that they should have recognized Jesus was their Messiah. But what they recognized in the NT was not their Messiah but a religion of fictional stories. Resurrected from the Dead? Virgin Birth? Fantasy stuff. Right? No, Baha'is say somehow Christianity is a true religion from God.

Bahai's do not say that Christianity is true, we say that the original Christianity of Jesus was altered by the Church who invented false doctrines and later Paul started a new religion.

The Baha'i position on the NT is as follows:

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[CG Didymus]

No, many parts of the Bible which Bahai scriptures tell us they are metaphorical doesn't sound metaphorical to most people, but why do you think God cannot or would not write symbolic stories which are very difficult to realize they are symbolic, and centuries later He comes and tell us, they were symbolic and also provide evidence and logical reasoning why they are symbolic?

Bahai scriptures confirms Bible is inspired word of God, so that means, God inspired the desciples of Christ to write the Bible. But you really didnt answer the question I asked in my last post. I believe that is an important step to answer to go farther and make conclusions.

I don't think God "inspired" four different gospel writers to write a "symbolic" story that was written in a way to seem like a real, historical event. And let the followers believe that it was a historical event for 2000 years until God sent Baha'u'llah to tell them that all this time... it was only symbolic.

I'm sticking with, if it didn't happen as written in the gospels, then the writers probably got their stories from the many oral traditions that were floating around. The problem with this is the empty tomb. Where did the body go? Why didn't the Romans and the Jews find it? How could the Christians that knew Jesus didn't rise from the dead, keep it a secret? How could so many Christians not have asked some of the supposed eyewitnesses if they had truly seen the risen Jesus? Were all those "witnesses" which was all the apostles and Mary and others, all in on the hoax?

The only way it makes sense is if the gospels didn't get circulated until most or all of the supposed witnesses were gone. So the only thing left was oral traditions of a Jesus that walked on water, was born of a virgin and rose from the dead. Never, ever could I believe that the writers went from telling about the story of Jesus' life and death, then suddenly, get "inspired" to write a fictional story about him coming back to life. You'd still have the supposed eyewitnesses in the fictional account.

Besides, there are many parts of the rest of the gospel stories that sound like fictional, embellishments... Like people coming out of their graves and God speaking from heaven.

 

[CG Didymus]

Easy to see Jesus when He returns? No, not at all, at all....
If it would be easy, Jesus would not have said to watch.
Christians never watched, they just waited, and waited and waited and waited.
And they will continue to wait until hell freezes over.
That's their loss.

Rev 3:2-3

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Luke 12:39-40

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Matthew 24:42-44King James Version (KJV)

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

2 Peter 3:10-13King James Version (KJV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Mark 13:32-37

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

What does watching have to do with easily seeing him when he returns? Like when the dog seeks out. I watch and wait. Then, all of a sudden she's barking and scratching at the door and I see her.

 

[CG Didymus]

Bahai's do not say that Christianity is true, we say that the original Christianity of Jesus was altered by the Church who invented false doctrines and later Paul started a new religion.

What "original" teachings? Did the Church alter the NT and the Jewish Bible? Did Paul?

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....

True in substance? What substance? We can't take what Jesus said or did as having literally happened?

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words

No, God didn't take care of the message of Jesus. We don't know his exact words, so how can we know what he intended to convey.

Christians can take their Scripture as literal or as liberal as they what. But Baha'i cannot allow them to be taken literal, since that would contradict the Baha'i teachings. Baha'is can only accept their interpretation. Oh, and still, under the protection of God? Yet, God allowed for hundreds and hundreds of years the Jews and the Christians to spread the false story about Isaac being the one taken to be sacrificed? No, this is Baha'u'llah making the Bible fit with Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

What does watching have to do with easily seeing him when he returns?

If Jesus would be easy to see when He returns, Jesus would not have to told people to watch in order not to miss seeing Him when He returned.

I do not have to watch for the UPS guy if I know he will be knocking on my door, but if he drives in quietly and drops the package off without saying anything, I would have to WATCH for that package. Then sometimes, the UPS guy places the package somewhere where I would least expect him to put it, so I have to look all over my property to find it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't think God "inspired" four different gospel writers to write a "symbolic" story that was written in a way to seem like a real, historical event. And let the followers believe that it was a historical event for 2000 years until God sent Baha'u'llah to tell them that all this time... it was only symbolic.
.

Yes, you don't think so. But, why do you think it is not a possibility? I mean, when it comes to beliefs, we need to have a logic behind anything we think, we think not. If I think it is possible that God inspired Some part of Gospels to be symbolic, I do have good reasons for what I think. But I have not seen any reasons from you, why you think, God could not inspire Bible to have symbolic expressions.