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Why Didn't the Holy Spirit Know?

rrobs

Well-Known Member
apologies for the late reply you see rrobs when we continue reading beyond chapter 14:16 and chapter 16:7, we find that Jesus predicts the specific details of the arrival and identity of the parakletos. Therefore, according to the context of John 14 & 16 we discover the following facts.

Jesus said the parakletos is a human being:

John 16:13 "He will speak."

John 16:7 "…for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you."

It is impossible that the Comforter be the "Holy Ghost" because the Holy Ghost was present long before Jesus and during his ministry.

John 16:13 Jesus referred to the paraclete as ‘he’ and not ‘it’ seven times, no other verse in the Bible contains seven masculine pronouns. Therefore, paraclete is a person, not a ghost.

Jesus is called a parakletos:

"And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1)

Here we see that parakletos is a physical and human intercessor.

The Divinity of Jesus a later innovation

Jesus was not accepted as divine until the Council of Nicea, 325 CE, but everyone, except Jews, agree he was a prophet of God, as indicated by the Bible:

Matthew 21:11 "...This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."

Luke 24:19 "...Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people."

Jesus prayed to God for another parakletos:

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another parakletos."

Jesus describes the function of the other Parakletos:

John 16:13 "He will guide you into all the truth."

I know it maybe irrelevant for you that I quote the Quran but the imformation in there are very important, you see God says in the Quran of Muhammad: "O mankind! The Messenger has now come unto you with the truth from your Lord: believe, then, for your own good!..." (Quran 4:170)

and then you can read in John 16:14 "He will glorify Me."

The Quran brought by Muhammad glorifies Jesus: "…who shall become known as the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, of great honor in this world and in the life to come, and [shall be] of those who are drawn near unto God." (Quran 3:45)

Muhammad also glorified Jesus: "Whoever testifies that none deserves worship except God, who has no partner, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger, and that Jesus is the servant of God, His Messenger, and His Word which He bestowed in Mary, and a spirit created from Him, and that Paradise is true, and that Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise, according to his deeds." (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)

John 16:8 "he will convince the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment."

The Quran announces: "Indeed, they have disbelieved who say, ‘God is the Christ, son of Mary’ - seeing that the Christ [himself] said, ‘O Children of Israel! Worship God [alone], who is my Lord as well as your Lord.’ ‘Indeed, whoever ascribes divinity to any being beside God, unto him will God deny paradise, and his goal shall be the fire: and there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers!’" (Quran 5:72)

John 16:13 "he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak."

The Quran says of Muhammad: "Neither does he speak out of his own desire: that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired." (Quran 53:3-4)

John 14:26 "and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

The words of the Quran: "…while the Messiah had said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’" (Quran 5:72)

…reminds people of the first and greatest command of Jesus they have forgotten:

"The first of all the commandments is, ‘Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’" (Mark 12:29)

John 16:13 "and He will disclose to you what is to come."

The Quran states: "That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal, [O Muhammad], to you…" (Quran 12:102)

Hudhaifa, a disciple of Prophet Muhammad, tells us: "The Prophet once delivered a speech in front of us wherein he left nothing but mentioned everything that would happen till the Hour (of Judgment)." (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

John 14:16 "that he may abide with you for ever."

…meaning his original teachings will remain forever. Muhammad was God’s last prophet to humanity. His teachings are perfectly preserved. He lives in the hearts and minds of his adoring followers who worship God in his exact imitation. No man, including Jesus or Muhammad, has an eternal life on earth. Parakletos is not an exception either. This cannot be an allusion to the Holy Ghost, for present day creed of the Holy Ghost did not exist until the Council of Chalcedon, in 451 CE, four and half centuries after Jesus.

John 14:17 "he will be the spirit of truth"

…meaning he will be true prophet, see 1 John 4: 1-3.

John 14:17 "the world neither sees him..."

Many people in the world today do not know Muhammad.

John 14:17 "...nor knows him"

Fewer people recognize the real Muhammad, God’s Prophet of Mercy.

John 14:26 "the Advocate (parakletos)" Muhammad will be the advocate of humanity at large and of sinful believers on Judgment Day:

People will look for those who can intercede on their behalf to God to reduce the distress and suffering on Day of Judgment. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus will excuse themselves.

Then they will come to our Prophet and he will say, "I am the one who is able." So he will intercede for the people in the Great Plain of Gathering, so judgment may be passed. This is the ‘Station of Praise’ God promises Him in the Quran:

"…It may be that your Lord will raise you to Station of Praise (the honor of intercession on the Day of Resurrection)" (Quran 17:79)

Prophet Muhammad said:

"My intercession will be for those of my nation who committed major sins." (Al-Tirmidhi)

"I shall be the first intercessor in Paradise." (Saheeh Muslim)

Some Muslim scholars suggest what Jesus actually said in Aramaic represents more closely the Greek word periklytos which means the ‘admired one.’ In Arabic the word ‘Muhammad’ means the ‘praiseworthy, admired one.’ In other words, periklytos is "Muhammad" in Greek. And there are two strong reasons in its support. First, due to several documented cases of similar word substitution in the Bible, it is quite possible that both words were contained in the original text but were dropped by a copyist because of the ancient custom of writing words closely packed, with no spaces in between. In such a case the original reading would have been, "and He will give you another comforter (parakletos), the admirable one (periklytos)." Second, we have the reliable testimony of at least four Muslim authorities from different eras who ascribed ‘admired, praised one’ as a possible meaning of the Greek or Syriac word to Christians scholars

The following are some who attest that the Paraclete is indeed an allusion to Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him:

The First Witness: Anselm Turmeda (1352/55-1425 CE), a priest and Christian scholar, was a witness to the prophecy. After accepting Islam he wrote a book, "Tuhfat al-arib fi al-radd ‘ala Ahl al-Salib."

The Second Witness: Abdul-Ahad Dawud, the former Rev. David Abdu Benjamin Keldani, BD, a Roman Catholic priest of the Uniate-Chaldean sect. After accepting Islam, he wrote the book, ‘Muhammad in the Bible.’ He writes in this book: "There is not the slightest doubt that by "Periqlyte," Prophet Muhammad, i.e. Ahmad, is intended."

The Third Witness: A synopsis of the life of Muhammad Asad has already been given above. Commenting on the verse:

"…an apostle who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad" (Quran 61:6)

…where Jesus predicts the coming of Muhammad, Asad explains that the word Parakletos:

"…is almost certainly a corruption of Periklytos (‘the Much-Praised’), an exact Greek translation of the Aramaic term or name Mawhamana. (It is to be borne in mind that Aramaic was the language used in Palestine at the time of, and for some centuries after, Jesus and was thus undoubtedly the language in which the original - now lost - texts of the Gospels were composed.) In view of the phonetic closeness of Periklytos and Parakletos it is easy to understand how the translator - or, more probably, a later scribe - confused these two expressions. It is significant that both the Aramaic Mawhamana and the Greek Periklytos have the same meaning as the two names of the Last Prophet, Muhammad and Ahmad, both of which are derived from the Hebrew verb hamida (‘he praised’) and the Hebrew noun hamd (‘praise’)."
A lot to chew on here. For now I'll say that there seems to be a lot in common between the Bible and Quran. I've not read the Quran for myself, so I appreciate your input. All in all, I find it interesting that Muslims apparently know more about the nature of Jesus than Christians. That of course has much to do with no (or very few?) Muslims invited to the councils where Jesus was made God.

Broadly speaking, there is the giver, God, the Holy Spirit, and there is the gift He gives us, holy spirit (note capital letter of the former and small letters of the latter - that is my addition since all letters in the original texts were capitalized. Still, I believe it communicates God's intended meaning). The giver gives us what He is, i.e. spirit. The giver and the gift must be kept separate for a full understanding. While the giver, the Holy Spirit (God), has of course been around since before the beginning, the gift of holy spirit was first given on the day of Pentecost. Well, there are some exceptions to this. There were various folks in the OT that were given the gift but it was conditional (good behavior) and for a definite period of time (until problem solved, etc). Born again people have it without condition and forever. It is because of the work Jesus did, not our own work.

I believe it is 1 Peter 1:23 that tells us we are born again of incorruptible seed. While many Christians want to change the meaning of "incorruptible," the word nonetheless means it won't corrupt, hence it is permanent. I always ask unbelieving Christians why they feel the need to complete the work Jesus did. Do they not believe Jesus was able to finish it despite the fact that his last words were, "it is finished." Then again it is not surprising since they also want to change the meaning of the word "one." I also like to ask those who don't give Jesus full credit for their redemption how many sins they get before it's too late. Never, not even once, have I gotten a reply to that question.

Two thousand years of tradition is hard to shake off I guess. Still, I'm no genius but at least I can read and understand simple words such as "one" and "incorruptible."

Take care
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
You see rrobs the more I read the Bible the more I see the human tampering with Bible that has reached Jesus himself. But just to understand, you believe That Jesus is the son God who died for the sins of humanity on the cross, and when I say son of God I mean by that literary the son of God, Or you just believe in Jesus as a prophet of God born miraculously without a father, of a virgin mother Marry.?
Jesus is called the second Adam. I believe that is because they are the only two people who had their beginning as a direct result of God creating. He created Adam in His image, and He created a seed in the womb of Mary. The rest of us are a product of seed/egg combination for which it is not necessary for God to create each time a child is born. He set the biology in motion of course, but once he did that it was self sustaining and here we all are.

In that sense, I believe that Adam and Jesus can be called a son of God in a literal way. The rest of the sons of God are, as I think you said, in a more figurative or spiritual sense. Christians are born again of God's seed, but it is not like the seed we got from our earthly father. The former is incorruptible, whereas the latter is corruptible, i.e. we will all die and rot in the ground. That is found in 1 Peter 1:23.

Yes, of course I believe Jesus died on the cross. But anybody can die. The real trick with Jesus is his being raised from among the dead to live forevermore. That is when the death that Adam introduced was finally conquered. We still have to wait for Jesus' second coming to see the fullness of that, but it will be coming. Otherwise, as Paul said, Christians are the most to be pitied that ever lived. I know I'd be majorly disappointed if I were to find out that I will not be raised and given a body like the risen Jesus' body. I'm counting on that coming to pass. I'm totally confident I won't be disappointed in that regard.
 
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Duncan

Member
A lot to chew on here. For now I'll say that there seems to be a lot in common between the Bible and Quran. I've not read the Quran for myself, so I appreciate your input. All in all, I find it interesting that Muslims apparently know more about the nature of Jesus than Christians. That of course has much to do with no (or very few?) Muslims invited to the councils where Jesus was made God.

Broadly speaking, there is the giver, God, the Holy Spirit, and there is the gift He gives us, holy spirit (note capital letter of the former and small letters of the latter - that is my addition since all letters in the original texts were capitalized. Still, I believe it communicates God's intended meaning). The giver gives us what He is, i.e. spirit. The giver and the gift must be kept separate for a full understanding. While the giver, the Holy Spirit (God), has of course been around since before the beginning, the gift of holy spirit was first given on the day of Pentecost. Well, there are some exceptions to this. There were various folks in the OT that were given the gift but it was conditional (good behavior) and for a definite period of time (until problem solved, etc). Born again people have it without condition and forever. It is because of the work Jesus did, not our own work.

I believe it is 1 Peter 1:23 that tells us we are born again of incorruptible seed. While many Christians want to change the meaning of "incorruptible," the word nonetheless means it won't corrupt, hence it is permanent. I always ask unbelieving Christians why they feel the need to complete the work Jesus did. Do they not believe Jesus was able to finish it despite the fact that his last words were, "it is finished." Then again it is not surprising since they also want to change the meaning of the word "one." I also like to ask those who don't give Jesus full credit for their redemption how many sins they get before it's too late. Never, not even once, have I gotten a reply to that question.

Two thousand years of tradition is hard to shake off I guess. Still, I'm no genius but at least I can read and understand simple words such as "one" and "incorruptible."

Take care


hey rrobs sorry I know was a lot of informations there, it s just i couldn't stop :) I would really invite you to read the Quran it is a book from God in Arabic descended by the angel Gabriel to the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, in there God confirm the books he sent down on Moses and Jesus and Abraham and David peace be upon them all, you will also find a chapter called marry and a chapter about Jesus family . you can find the Quran in English however you will not find a translation because you cant translate it but its an explanation and interpretation in any language you want. I hope you will accept that invitation and read it. :)
 

Duncan

Member
You see rrobs I dont believe that Jesus peace be upon him died on the cross, You have to be patient with me I am going once again to give lots of information it myself tooks me a day to collect lol.

You see the four Gospels do not agree on many details of the crucifixion and the resurrection. As was proved before, the contradictions in the New Testament are a fact of life. Thus attempting to produce a credible story on the many events in the New Testament is extremely difficult or even impossible. However this is an attempt to construct a reasonable story.

On the cross, Jesus asked God for help: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." (Matthew 27:46). To believe that Jesus said that is to discredit his whole mission. Prophet Abraham, when God asked him to sacrifice his son, a request that is as painful as sacrificing himself, did not say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." In Luke 22:42, Jesus said: "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (This cup is the cup of death). Most likely, Jesus" prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God, according to Luke, Hebrews and James. Then how could he still die on the cross? "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him," (Luke 22:43). This Angel assured him that God would not leave him helpless. In Hebrews 5:7, "Who in the days of his flesh, when he (Jesus) had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared." Jesus prayers were heard, which means answered in a positive way by God as in James 5:16 "...The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Jesus himself said, Matthew 7:7-10, "Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you." After the alleged crucifixion, his legs were not broken by the Roman soldiers, (John 19:32-33) "Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs." Can we rely on the soldiers for pronouncing the death, or did they want to save Jesus as they found him innocent? Thus there is a strong probability that Jesus did not die on the cross.

When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign of his true mission, he answered: "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale"s belly, so shall the son of man be there three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40). As was mentioned before, Luke has the same story, but Mark contradicts with Matthew and Luke with regards to the sign of Jonas.

God Almighty commanded Jonah to go to Nineveh, (the capital of Assyria, a city of a hundred thousand people) and to warn them to repent and quit the evil things people were doing there, or the Lord will destroy them. Jonah felt desperate, fearing that the materialistic Ninevites will not listen to him. So, instead of going to Nineveh, he attempted to run away from the Lord. He went to Joppa at the Mediterranean Sea and set sail for a faraway city. At sea there was a terrible storm and, according to superstition of the mariners, whosoever runs away from his master creates such turmoil at sea. An inquiry began and Jonah realized that he was the guilty party, that as a prophet of God he had to obey his Master. Jonah reasoned that it was better for him to be thrown overboard and thus avert a disaster. Jonah said, "Pick me up and throw me into the sea; then the sea will become calm for you. For I know that this great tempest is because of me." (Jonah 1:12). Therefore Jonah was thrown into the sea alive.

Now the storm subsides and a fish came and swallowed Jonah. From the fish′s belly, he asked God, the Only One that can save him, for help. On the third day, the fish threw him up onto the seashore and Jonah, was alive. Not surprisingly that Jesus chose the sign "miracle" of Jonah as his only miracle. When a man is expected to die and he does not die, then it is a miracle. Jonah is expected to die, but he did not die. Jesus too, after the ordeal that he supposedly went through, ought to have died. If he died, it would not be the miracle of Jonah that Jesus had prophesized. But if he lived, as he had himself foretold in Matthew and Luke, then it would be a miracle. Jesus, like Jonah, had the same miracle during the story of crucifixion and resurrection. Jesus, like Jonah, prayed to God for help and God accepted their prayers.

But Christianity is a big business. Preachers and TV evangelists are very well educated in the Bible, as well as public speaking, psychology and marketing. The first rule of business and marketing is: when you have a hot item, capitalize on it! The dramatization of the crucifixion and resurrection sell very well by Christian preachers. Also, it is not easy for the average Christians to agree that Jesus was alive after the crucifixion, because their salvation depends on it. When Christians are confronted with the above argument, they change the emphasis on the time factor of the three days and the three nights. They say that it was that time factor that Jesus was prophesying about and not whether he would be dead or alive. The word "three" is repeated four times in Matthew 12:40.

Christians everywhere celebrate Good Friday. They say it is because Christ died for their sins on that day. All Christian sects and denominations are almost all in agreement that Jesus was supposed to have been in the tomb on the night of Friday. He was still supposed to be in the tomb on the day of Saturday. And he was still supposed to be in the tomb on the night of Saturday. But on Sunday morning, when Mary Magdalene visited the tomb, she found the tomb empty. None of the 27 Books of the New Testament record the time of his exit from the tomb. Not a single writer of the 27 books was an eyewitness to this alleged resurrection. And the only one who could have told us about his resurrection was silent. It is possible that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemos, (John 18:38-39) had taken their Master soon after dark that very Friday evening to a friendly place for rest and recuperation. Could it be that these two apostles and the others were referring to someone that looked like Jesus. In II Cor. 11:14, Paul says: "And no marvel: for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light (messenger of God)."

Now if it was the time factor that Jesus was trying to emphasize in the prophecy, then this time does not add up to three nights and three days. The maximum that Jesus could have stayed in the tomb was two nights and one day. Therefore, the Christians have two problems arising from one prophecy:

1. The Christians allege that Jesus was unlike Jonah. Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, whereas Jesus was dead in the tomb.

2. Jesus said that he would be in the tomb for three days and three nights, whereas the Christians say that he was in the tomb for only one day and two nights.

Now, whom do we believe, Jesus or the Christians? To solve this dilemma, one Christian scholar suggested that it was actually Good Wednesday not Friday, by counting backwards from the time he was discovered on Sunday morning (the first day of the week). When this scholar was asked: Who deceived over a billion Christians for two thousand years by making them celebrate Good Friday? His answer was: "The devil!" If the devil can succeed in confusing the Christians for two thousand years in the most strong aspect of faith, how much easier it would be for the devil to mislead them in other aspects of faith?

After the alleged resurrection, Jesus himself stated that he did not die on the cross. Early Sunday morning Mary Magdalene went to the sepulcher, which was empty. Why did she go there? "To anoint him", Mark 16:1. Anoint means to rub, or to massage bodies with spices. Do Jews massage dead bodies after three days? The answer is "No." It would, however, make sense if she were looking for a live wounded person. Mary was about the only person besides Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus who had given the final rites to the body of Jesus. She saw someone standing who looked like a gardener. She recognized him after conversation to be Jesus and wanted to touch him. Jesus said (John 20:17): "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father." Why did Jesus not want her to touch him? Was it because his fresh wounds still hurt him? If he did not yet ascend to his Father, does this mean that he is still alive, not dead yet? This is the strongest proof admitted by the only reliable witness, by Jesus himself.

Jesus was not a sprit after resurrection. It was Jesus himself in flesh and blood. Jesus convinced the disciples by letting them touch his hands and feet, that he was the same person. As they could not believe him yet, he asked for meat to show them that he still ate like any living person: "And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:42-43)

To believe in his death on the cross is to totally discredit his prophethood. In Deuteronomy 13:5 "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death." The Jews maintain their belief in having killed Jesus on the cross and consequently portrayed him to be a false prophet. Christians believe in the crucifixion necessary for their salvation and redemption of sin and therefore have to accept the accursedness of Jesus, too. This Christian belief is against the sayings of Jesus (Matthew 9:13): "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice..." Also in Matthew 12:7, he said: "...I will have mercy, and not sacrifice..."

It was Paul who taught the resurrection (Acts 17:18): "... And some (Jews) said, What will this babbler say? Other some, he (Paul) seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection." Paul, who never saw Jesus, also admitted that the resurrection was his gospel (II Timothy 2:8): "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel." As for Mark (16:19), when he mentioned that Jesus rose up to heaven and sat on the right hand of God, it was already mentioned that Mark 16:9-20, were expunged from certain Bibles and it was originally added to fill in the spaces.

The Holy Quran states that Jesus did not die on the cross:"That they (Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them" (Surah 4, Ayah 157).

The big business of Christian churches would never admit that there is a slight chance that Jesus never died on the cross. Preachers want people to attend churches, tell them that they are sinners and Jesus died for their sins and then get their donations. Bumper stickers are everywhere proclaiming that "Jesus loves me", "Jesus died for me," "Jesus blood saved me." It makes those people feel good and feel special that someone as great as Jesus died for them. The churches know the power of this concept and they would not give it up.
Most of the Christian doctrines were initially very simple. But somehow, Christian scholars take a simple event or a simple verse and add mountains of complexity and confusion just to satisfy their intellectual curiosity.



 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
When Jesus said, ", My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" he was quoting Psalms 22:1. Read the whole Psalm and you will get a better idea of what was going through his mind. Suffice it to say that in the end Jesus felt anything but abandoned.

Is there no record in the Quran where some character lamented his situation, only to realize in the end that God was not about to abandon him in their time of need? People have doubts, but if they realize God is their helper, the doubts quickly evaporate. Again, check out the whole of Psalm 22. On a whole, it is anything but a resignation to the evil which may have befallen someone. It is a song of God's ability to deliver. I have no problem with that. In fact, I rather like it.

Contradictions? I told a friend I ate a steak that evening. I told another friend I had a salad that same evening. Is that a contradiction? Could it not be that I actually had a salad AND a steak that night? Why not? I just told one friend part of the story and the other friend another part of the same story.

Many so-called contradictions will be cleared up if we realize that God told Matthew to write one part of the story and Mark to write another part of the same story. Also, it is easy to confuse two similar incidents by taking the narrative as describing one and the same story. An example is Jesus grand entrance into Jerusalem just before his crucifixion. It is assumed that there was one such incident and that the different "versions" of that one entrance contradict each other. If the scriptures are really worked, it is easy to see that Jesus made two such entrances into Jerusalem on two different days. All you have to do is check your premise and then see exactly what the scriptures say.

Another example is those who were crucified with Jesus. One gospel says one of the guys reviled Jesus whereas another gospel says both reviled him. That would be a problem if we held to the tradition of 2 others crucified with him. Could it be tradition is not the authority on the scriptures, that there were in fact 4 others crucified with Jesus?

On another note. I've given you many scriptures. I was hoping you might address those scriptures before moving on to totally different subject. For example, why are we talking about whether or not Jesus actually died? Also, any comment on the difference between the giver and the gift? You just keep firing new things at me without addressing what I've already said. Not to criticize, but that does seem to be what's happening here.
 

Duncan

Member
Apologies I didn't intend to jump to another subject, I just thought talking about what christian call Jesus death since you brought the subject, and to be honest I havent thought there was a need to answer to the comment about the gift and the giver thought of it as a remark from you, fair enough let me go back to it slowly and answer.

When Jesus said, ", My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" he was quoting Psalms 22:1. Read the whole Psalm and you will get a better idea of what was going through his mind. Suffice it to say that in the end Jesus felt anything but abandoned.

I read the bible in Greek, in Hebrew Arabic and English and I read the Psalms and the 4 Gospels the last words of Jesus on the cross are very confusing. First, there are four different versions of the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This raises major questions about the accuracy of recording a Holy Book. These verses are part of a Christian doctrine of divine inspiration. If God had inspired these four gospel writers, why did God inspire them to record different words? These verses are not just different words, but totally different concepts. It seems that the closest statement should be the one that Jesus said in his own Aramaic language:

"Jesus cried with aloud voice saying Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46, & Mark 15:34, though it is Eloi instead of Eli in Mark.) Which means God, God, why have you abandoned me?

It is hard to believe that Jesus said that God abandoned him. There are three possibilities:

- He said that. Then, why did the son of God think that his father abandoned him? Jesus told the disciples that he would die and rise from the dead in three days. He knew that he would die and be resurrected, so how can that be called abandonment? If he is the son of God that came to save humanity with his blood, so how can that be called abandonment? If he knew his mission in life, so how can that be called abandonment? This statement simply contradicts all the New Testament. Many Christian scholars have the same trouble justifying this statement.

- He did not say that. This means that Matthew and Mark were not accurate, and God did not inspire the Gospels, because God would not allow any inaccuracies.

- The man on the cross was not Jesus! This may seem at first sight as an unreasonable idea. But if we know that the same sentence, word for word, exists in the songs of David, Psalm 22.1, one may be tempted to suggest that the man on the Cross was a Jew asking God for help from his Old Testament.

It is interesting to note that Christian theologians introduced a branch called Apologetics to provide answers to criticisms against Christian beliefs. Apologetics started early in Christian history to resolve many contradictions in the New Testament. It is no secret that the word Apologetics came from the Latin word "apology", and the Greek origin "Logos." Some apologists suggest that Jesus said all the above versions. This is in spite of the fact that no single Gospel included all the four versions. Analyzing the Apologetics reasoning of the above four versions of Jesus′ last word does not present a satisfactory argument. Also, recent Apologetics advocates that historical and archeological evidences support early Christian history. That is a fair statement. However, historical and archeological evidences support the historical Jesus only, and cannot be extended to support the Christian belief about the nature of Jesus. In the New Testament, Jesus always presented himself as the "son of man." He never said that he was the son of god. Forty years later, Paul made him the "Son of God," and in the first Ecumenical Council of Churches, 325 AD, Athanasius made Jesus of the same Divine "substance" as that of God.

 

Duncan

Member
Is there no record in the Quran where some character lamented his situation, only to realize in the end that God was not about to abandon him in their time of need?

God tell us the real story of Jesus, before his birth after birth and when he raised him to him and when he will be back, there is a record of people trying to Kill him, but as i said the story is there for you to read. God never abandon his messengers.
 

Duncan

Member
Contradictions? I told a friend I ate a steak that evening. I told another friend I had a salad that same evening. Is that a contradiction? Could it not be that I actually had a salad AND a steak that night? Why not? I just told one friend part of the story and the other friend another part of the same story.

Well it`s a big difference you are talking to me about salad and steak and I am talking to you about what is supposed to be the word of God , here we are talking about the base of Christianity, If lets say the Quraan had been changed over the century I would have doubts and ask why we are changing the Word of God or even contradict it. So its bigger than a salad and steak.

I m not going to quote the verses of the Quran but something similar in the bible : “Ye shall not add unto the word which I (God) command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deuteronomy 4:2)

Let me start from the beginning. No Biblical scholar on this earth will claim that the Bible was written by Jesus himself. They all agree that the Bible was written after the departure of Jesus peace be upon him by his followers. Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

“..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men….It is Human, Yet Divine,”

Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

“...Not so the New Testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history...”

“It is well known that the primitive Christian Gospel was initially transmitted by word of mouth and that this oral tradition resulted in variant reporting of word and deed. It is equally true that when the Christian record was committed to writing it continued to be the subject of verbal variation. Involuntary and intentional, at the hands of scribes and editors.”

“Yet, as a matter of fact, every book of the New Testament with the exception of the four great Epistles of St. Paul is at present more or less the subject of controversy, and interpolations are asserted even in these.”

Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity was himself driven to admit that:

“[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written”

After listing many examples of contradictory statements in the Bible, Dr. Frederic Kenyon says:

“Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies [of the ancient manuscripts from which the Bible has been collected]. No one can say that these additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference”

Throughout this book you will find countless other similar quotations from some of Christendom’s leading scholars. Let us suffice with these for now.

Christians are, in general, good and decent people, and the stronger their convictions the more decent they are. This is attested to in the noble Quran:

“...and nearest among them (men) in love to the believers will you find those who say ‘we are Christians’: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the messenger (Muhammad), you will see their eyes overflowing with tears for they recognize the truth: They pray: ‘Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.’” (Quran 5:82-83)

All biblical “versions” of the Bible prior to the revised version of 1881 were dependent upon the “Ancient Copies” (those dating between five to six hundred years after Jesus). The revisers of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) 1952 were the first biblical scholars to have access to the “MOST ancient copies” which date fully three to four hundred years after Christ. It is only logical for us to concur that the closer a document is to the source the more authentic it is. see by yourself what is the opinion of Christendom with regard to the most revised version of the Bible (revised in 1952 and then again in 1971):

“The finest version which has been produced in the present century” - (Church of England newspaper)

“A completely fresh translation by scholars of the highest eminence” - (Times literary supplement)

“The well loved characteristics of the authorized version combined with a new accuracy of translation” - (Life and Work)

“The most accurate and close rendering of the original” - (The Times)

The publishers themselves (Collins) mention on page 10 of their notes:

“This Bible (RSV) is the product of thirty two scholars assisted by an advisory committee representing fifty cooperating denominations”

Let me also quote to you what these thirty two Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations have to say about the Authorized Version (AV), or as it is better known, the King James Version (KJV). In the preface of the RSV 1971 we find the following:

“...Yet the King James Version has GRAVE DEFECTS..”

They go on to caution us that:

“...That these defects are SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS as to call for revision”

I can go on and on and on to be honest....
 

Duncan

Member
On another note. I've given you many scriptures. I was hoping you might address those scriptures before moving on to totally different subject. For example, why are we talking about whether or not Jesus actually died? Also, any comment on the difference between the giver and the gift? You just keep firing new things at me without addressing what I've already said. Not to criticize, but that does seem to be what's happening here.


The Giver is God the almighty and the Gift is What God sent upon us our sustenance, Jesus is a gift Abraham is a gift Mohammed is a gift Moses is a gift, your heath is a gift, everything we have is a Gift. this is how I see it.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I read the bible in Greek, in Hebrew Arabic and English and I read the Psalms and the 4 Gospels the last words of Jesus on the cross are very confusing. First, there are four different versions of the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This raises major questions about the accuracy of recording a Holy Book. These verses are part of a Christian doctrine of divine inspiration. If God had inspired these four gospel writers, why did God inspire them to record different words? These verses are not just different words, but totally different concepts. It seems that the closest statement should be the one that Jesus said in his own Aramaic language:

"Jesus cried with aloud voice saying Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46, & Mark 15:34, though it is Eloi instead of Eli in Mark.) Which means God, God, why have you abandoned me?

It is hard to believe that Jesus said that God abandoned him. There are three possibilities:

- He said that. Then, why did the son of God think that his father abandoned him? Jesus told the disciples that he would die and rise from the dead in three days. He knew that he would die and be resurrected, so how can that be called abandonment? If he is the son of God that came to save humanity with his blood, so how can that be called abandonment? If he knew his mission in life, so how can that be called abandonment? This statement simply contradicts all the New Testament. Many Christian scholars have the same trouble justifying this statement.

- He did not say that. This means that Matthew and Mark were not accurate, and God did not inspire the Gospels, because God would not allow any inaccuracies.

- The man on the cross was not Jesus! This may seem at first sight as an unreasonable idea. But if we know that the same sentence, word for word, exists in the songs of David, Psalm 22.1, one may be tempted to suggest that the man on the Cross was a Jew asking God for help from his Old Testament.
So you discount any suggestion that Jesus had the whole of Psalm 22 on his mind, not just the first verse? Again, as a man, I'm sure Jesus had the same doubts as any man. Nonetheless, when all was said and done, he, like the entirety of Psalm 22 understood that God would never abandon those who believe his Words. People who walk with God may get discouraged at times, but they stay with the promises of God's words and all is made clear again. In other words, I may think God has abandoned me at times, but it always turns out that I was dead wrong.

I might remind you that Jesus was tempted in every point just like you and I. Have you ever doubted your God? I trust you would admit to that. Well, so did Jesus. But in the end he came back to the truth as revealed in the whole of Psalm 22. God did not abandon him.

Sure, Jesus asked God to take the cup from him, in fact he asked 3 times. What's wrong with that? He was a man and I can understand any man not wanting to go through with what lay ahead. So what? The main thing is, he went through with it, not because he wanted to, but because God wanted him to do it in order to redeem the rest of us poor ********. That's the epitome of beautiful if you ask me.

It is interesting to note that Christian theologians introduced a branch called Apologetics to provide answers to criticisms against Christian beliefs. Apologetics started early in Christian history to resolve many contradictions in the New Testament. It is no secret that the word Apologetics came from the Latin word "apology", and the Greek origin "Logos." Some apologists suggest that Jesus said all the above versions. This is in spite of the fact that no single Gospel included all the four versions. Analyzing the Apologetics reasoning of the above four versions of Jesus′ last word does not present a satisfactory argument. Also, recent Apologetics advocates that historical and archeological evidences support early Christian history. That is a fair statement. However, historical and archeological evidences support the historical Jesus only, and cannot be extended to support the Christian belief about the nature of Jesus. In the New Testament, Jesus always presented himself as the "son of man." He never said that he was the son of god. Forty years later, Paul made him the "Son of God," and in the first Ecumenical Council of Churches, 325 AD, Athanasius made Jesus of the same Divine "substance" as that of God.
I've never felt the need to apologize for God's words. I tell people to the best of my ability what the scriptures say and they can take it or leave it. I am not responsible for what others might believe.

If one begins their study of the scriptures with the preconceived idea that they are full of contradictions, they will surely find them. On the other hand, if one begins their study with the preconceived idea that God's words are purified 7 times over, then any contradiction becomes an "apparent" contradiction. Perhaps the contradiction lies with the translation, or it may lie with one's own understanding. In either case, it is possible to clear up all those apparent contradictions. I already told you one principle, i.e. God inspired different men to write different aspects of the same event. I also suggested that many contradictions arise when it is assumed that two similar, though separate, events are made to be the same event.

If God really purified his words 7 times, we ought to give equal care to reading them.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Well it`s a big difference you are talking to me about salad and steak and I am talking to you about what is supposed to be the word of God , here we are talking about the base of Christianity, If lets say the Quraan had been changed over the century I would have doubts and ask why we are changing the Word of God or even contradict it. So its bigger than a salad and steak.

I m not going to quote the verses of the Quran but something similar in the bible : “Ye shall not add unto the word which I (God) command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deuteronomy 4:2)

Let me start from the beginning. No Biblical scholar on this earth will claim that the Bible was written by Jesus himself. They all agree that the Bible was written after the departure of Jesus peace be upon him by his followers. Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

“..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men….It is Human, Yet Divine,”

Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

“...Not so the New Testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history...”

“It is well known that the primitive Christian Gospel was initially transmitted by word of mouth and that this oral tradition resulted in variant reporting of word and deed. It is equally true that when the Christian record was committed to writing it continued to be the subject of verbal variation. Involuntary and intentional, at the hands of scribes and editors.”

“Yet, as a matter of fact, every book of the New Testament with the exception of the four great Epistles of St. Paul is at present more or less the subject of controversy, and interpolations are asserted even in these.”

Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity was himself driven to admit that:

“[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written”

After listing many examples of contradictory statements in the Bible, Dr. Frederic Kenyon says:

“Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies [of the ancient manuscripts from which the Bible has been collected]. No one can say that these additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference”

Throughout this book you will find countless other similar quotations from some of Christendom’s leading scholars. Let us suffice with these for now.

Christians are, in general, good and decent people, and the stronger their convictions the more decent they are. This is attested to in the noble Quran:

“...and nearest among them (men) in love to the believers will you find those who say ‘we are Christians’: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the messenger (Muhammad), you will see their eyes overflowing with tears for they recognize the truth: They pray: ‘Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.’” (Quran 5:82-83)

All biblical “versions” of the Bible prior to the revised version of 1881 were dependent upon the “Ancient Copies” (those dating between five to six hundred years after Jesus). The revisers of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) 1952 were the first biblical scholars to have access to the “MOST ancient copies” which date fully three to four hundred years after Christ. It is only logical for us to concur that the closer a document is to the source the more authentic it is. see by yourself what is the opinion of Christendom with regard to the most revised version of the Bible (revised in 1952 and then again in 1971):

“The finest version which has been produced in the present century” - (Church of England newspaper)

“A completely fresh translation by scholars of the highest eminence” - (Times literary supplement)

“The well loved characteristics of the authorized version combined with a new accuracy of translation” - (Life and Work)

“The most accurate and close rendering of the original” - (The Times)

The publishers themselves (Collins) mention on page 10 of their notes:

“This Bible (RSV) is the product of thirty two scholars assisted by an advisory committee representing fifty cooperating denominations”

Let me also quote to you what these thirty two Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations have to say about the Authorized Version (AV), or as it is better known, the King James Version (KJV). In the preface of the RSV 1971 we find the following:

“...Yet the King James Version has GRAVE DEFECTS..”

They go on to caution us that:

“...That these defects are SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS as to call for revision”

I can go on and on and on to be honest....
It is no secret that most of the seminaries teach future pastors that the scriptures are not from God, that they are full of contradiction and falsehoods, that they were not really written by men under the inspiration of God, that they are all men's ideas, so it is no surprise that all those "scholars" would poo-poo them. That's their prerogative, but I don't have to buy into their teachings and I don't.

As I said before, I believe God gave us words that are purified 7 time over. Gee, who should I believe, the so-called experts or the scriptures? I know, I choose the scriptures! It works rather grandly for me. I know it would for anybody who abandons the experts in favor of the scriptures, but it's all up to each one to decide.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
The Giver is God the almighty and the Gift is What God sent upon us our sustenance, Jesus is a gift Abraham is a gift Mohammed is a gift Moses is a gift, your heath is a gift, everything we have is a Gift. this is how I see it.
Well, you appear to be reading a lot into the words Jesus said to his disciples towards the end. Read Acts chapter 1 and it becomes apparent that he was telling them they would receive the gift of holy spirit. He was not talking about health, himself, or everything God gives us. I'm not sure the scriptures called any of those things a gift (I may be wrong on that but it wouldn't matter in the present discussion anyway). He was talking about a very specific thing and that thing is revealed in vivid technicolor in the second chapter. It's hard to miss. They were baptized in holy spirit and went in one fell swoop from being afraid behind closed doors to boldly proclaiming the the Jews killed their redeemer (of course they also told those same Jews how to get saved and put all of that behind them). Something sure changed!
 

Duncan

Member
Have you ever doubted your God?

My God is your God, the one who created you and created me and to whom you and me will return, and to be honest I never doubted him once, if Good happen we thank him and if bad happen we thank him and bear in patience.

what can I tell you rrob, my invitation for you to read the Quran if you wish of course is open, you will find whats in the old testament and new one and more. For me Jesus peace be upon him was a great and powerful prophet, He was sent to the people of Israel and was the last prophet from their lineage, he predicted the arrival of Mohammed peace be upon him, God mention Jesus so many times in the Quran, fact is if a muslim say i dont believe in Jesus he is not muslim. I would give my life for him, And i pray God to be alive when he will send him back to see him because Muslims are waiting for him, there is a big Prophecy about that and he is going to play a big role.

for my part I enjoyed our debate, I shared with you what I know and I want to thank you for what you shared with me and for your time.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
My God is your God, the one who created you and created me and to whom you and me will return, and to be honest I never doubted him once, if Good happen we thank him and if bad happen we thank him and bear in patience.

what can I tell you rrob, my invitation for you to read the Quran if you wish of course is open, you will find whats in the old testament and new one and more. For me Jesus peace be upon him was a great and powerful prophet, He was sent to the people of Israel and was the last prophet from their lineage, he predicted the arrival of Mohammed peace be upon him, God mention Jesus so many times in the Quran, fact is if a muslim say i dont believe in Jesus he is not muslim. I would give my life for him, And i pray God to be alive when he will send him back to see him because Muslims are waiting for him, there is a big Prophecy about that and he is going to play a big role.

for my part I enjoyed our debate, I shared with you what I know and I want to thank you for what you shared with me and for your time.
I too have certainly enjoyed our conversation and I feel as though I've learned a few things. For that, I thank you.

I do have one more question if you don't mind: does the Quran speak of a redeemer that has taken away the sins of the believer, or is it up to each individual to make themselves worthy? I did start reading parts of the Quran, but if there is such a thing as a redeemer like the Biblical Jesus, I would like to see what it says about it if you could tell me where it is written. I won't debate your answer, I'm just curious to know.

Take care
 

Duncan

Member
I too have certainly enjoyed our conversation and I feel as though I've learned a few things. For that, I thank you.

I do have one more question if you don't mind: does the Quran speak of a redeemer that has taken away the sins of the believer, or is it up to each individual to make themselves worthy? I did start reading parts of the Quran, but if there is such a thing as a redeemer like the Biblical Jesus, I would like to see what it says about it if you could tell me where it is written. I won't debate your answer, I'm just curious to know.

Take care


Hey rrobs was my pleasure, It is a very good question, To answer to you question correctly, Do you mean is there a prophecy of someone else coming in future time to save humanity from corruption, or you want to know if there is someone who will take and bear the sins of human kind.? because rrobs regarding the sins taken away by someone else God said

Say, "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Surah al-An’am:164)

And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allah is the [final] destination. (Surah Fathir:18)

What Islam does have, however, is the intercession of the Prophet (peace be upon him) for all humanity, and the intercession of other prophets, the pious, and our good deeds.

We also believe that a man will come called Al Mehdi just before Jesus peace be upon him and both will meet when Jesus peace be upon him come back.

I don`t know if I answered your question but please feel free to debate with me :) ask me questions I will be more than happy to answer, I am also happy that you are reading the Quran

was your question related to Salvation?

 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Hey rrobs was my pleasure, It is a very good question, To answer to you question correctly, Do you mean is there a prophecy of someone else coming in future time to save humanity from corruption, or you want to know if there is someone who will take and bear the sins of human kind.? because rrobs regarding the sins taken away by someone else God said

Say, "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Surah al-An’am:164)

And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allah is the [final] destination. (Surah Fathir:18)

What Islam does have, however, is the intercession of the Prophet (peace be upon him) for all humanity, and the intercession of other prophets, the pious, and our good deeds.

We also believe that a man will come called Al Mehdi just before Jesus peace be upon him and both will meet when Jesus peace be upon him come back.

I don`t know if I answered your question but please feel free to debate with me :) ask me questions I will be more than happy to answer, I am also happy that you are reading the Quran

was your question related to Salvation?
Thanks for the reply. You sort of answered my question, but I'm still a bit unclear.

As you probably know, the scriptures say that sin entered the world when Adam disobeyed God, and death came by sin. It's not the individual sins that one commits that dooms them, it is the sin nature they inherited from Adam. Dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and people sin. Nature is nature. Because of the sin nature, people can't help but sin, but as I said, it is really the nature of sin itself that dooms people. Their particular sins are just a byproduct of that nature.

Because of the virgin birth, Jesus didn't share the exact same nature as the rest of us. His seed came from God, not from Adam. You may recall Genesis talking at some length about seed. Basically, it said that an apple seed produces and apple tree, an oak seed produces and oak tree, a cat seed produces a cat, etc. Well we all share the seed with Adam polluted. I believe it is 1 Peter 1:23 that speaks of corruptible seed. Again, that is why we die.

While Jesus started out with pure blood (lamb without blemish, innocent blood), it was up to him to keep himself that way. Adam also started with innocent blood, but it was lost when he disobeyed. It became corrupt and that is what we all inherited. On the other hand, Jesus, by his own free will, never once disobeyed God. He did so at great cost to himself. We have already discussed his reticence to die on the cross. Nonetheless, he dismissed his own desire in favor of doing God's will regardless of his personal desires.

According to the scriptures there is nothing a person can do to change their sin nature and thus avoid death, which the scriptures declare to be an enemy. The devil legally purchased all mankind when he tricked Adam into disobeying. According to the scriptures, It is a falsehood to think God is in charge. He relinquished that privilege when he gave dominion to Adam. Adam in turn was free to relinquish that dominion to the devil and that is what he did. We, as well as this current creation belong to him, not to God. The devil legally owns all people and there is nothing anyone can do to free themselves from his control. However, if God was able to convince someone to die without ever having committed sin, that person would conquer death and regain control over the creation away from the devil. It is as though we were in the devil's pawnshop and Jesus redeemed us back to freedom. We don't see that yet, but it will come. God will burn every atom of this creation and make a whole new creation free from sin and death. That is the hope of every Christian. I might point out that we will not be in heaven but on the new earth. That is where Jesus will be and Thessalonians tells us we will be with him.

The point of all of this: man is doomed and there is nothing he can do to save himself, so we needed a redeemer. To be saved Romans 10:9-10 tell us we must confess Jesus as lord (our boss) and believe God raised him from the dead. At that moment we are born from above, not with the original corruptible seed, but with incorruptible seed, by the word of God. Christians receive the gift of holy spirit, which the scriptures declare to be a token of our guaranteed inheritance. Jesus is the one who conquered death and redeemed us from it's power. Our salvation does not depend on what we do, but on what he did.

Hopefully that is enough background for you to answer the following questions. Again, I won't debate your answer. It's just that you seem to have a good knowledge of the Quran, so if you could help me see if the answers are in the Quran and where, it would save me time and I could get right to the heart of the matter. I guess I'm being a bit lazy, but your help would be appreciated.
  1. Does Islam have a redeemer like that, or is it up to each believer to make themselves worthy, to buy themselves back from death?
  2. If it is up to the individual believer's behavior, is there a certain limit of sins they commit before it's too late?
  3. Is it possible to be assured of one's future state in paradise, or do they have to wait and see?
Thank you my friend.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Hey rrobs was my pleasure, It is a very good question, To answer to you question correctly, Do you mean is there a prophecy of someone else coming in future time to save humanity from corruption, or you want to know if there is someone who will take and bear the sins of human kind.? because rrobs regarding the sins taken away by someone else God said

Say, "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Surah al-An’am:164)

And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allah is the [final] destination. (Surah Fathir:18)

What Islam does have, however, is the intercession of the Prophet (peace be upon him) for all humanity, and the intercession of other prophets, the pious, and our good deeds.

We also believe that a man will come called Al Mehdi just before Jesus peace be upon him and both will meet when Jesus peace be upon him come back.

I don`t know if I answered your question but please feel free to debate with me :) ask me questions I will be more than happy to answer, I am also happy that you are reading the Quran

was your question related to Salvation?
Upon a third careful reading of your reply, I think I understand that it is up to each individual to make themselves worthy. I understand they do have an intercessor but the intercessor, in an of himself, does not guarantee anything. I'm sorry for the other reply to your answer. I should have read more and written less. :)
 

Duncan

Member
Upon a third careful reading of your reply, I think I understand that it is up to each individual to make themselves worthy. I understand they do have an intercessor but the intercessor, in an of himself, does not guarantee anything. I'm sorry for the other reply to your answer. I should have read more and written less. :)


Hey rrobs no problem at all allow me just to add that In Islam, the key to salvation is the belief in and worship of the One True, Unique and Perfect God and obedience to His commandments, the same message brought by all Prophets. Islam preaches that a person must work righteousness and avoid sin to attain Paradise, and that if one sins, that they seek repentance for it from their heart. Through this and the Mercy and Grace of God, they will enter Paradise. Islam does not deem that all those before the advent of Muhammad are doomed to Hell, but rather that each nation was sent a Prophet by the same One God, and it was upon them to follow His commandments. Those who have not heard of the message are not held liable to follow Islam, and God will deal with them with His Perfect Justice on the Day of Judgment. Infants and children of both Muslims and disbelievers alike are in enjoyment in Paradise upon death. Due to the infinite Justice of God:

“No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden. And We never punish (people) until We have sent (to them) a Messenger (to give warning).” (Quran 17:15)

I will now answer the questions but I dont want you to be lazy I still want you to read it there is 114 chapters, You can do it :)
 

Duncan

Member
Allow me just to point something first about the original sin, I read what you wrote and I have to disagree:) You see rrobs I have the bible I have it in English and Greek and time to time I take both with me when I have discussion with my friends at the library and the forst thing they tell me before we leave the library ( we leave in good terms and meet again in good terms :)) its about the crucifiction and my salvation if I believe that Jesus died for my sins. You see in Christian theology, every human is born sinful. The origin of this concept has been attributed to Adam who disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit. Consequently, Adam’s sin is transmitted by heredity to the entire human race. The Old Testament says nothing about the transmission of hereditary sin to everyone. Also, the term original sin is not found in the Bible. Paul suggested that humans are sinners. He said in Acts 13:39 that we can have forgiveness from our sins through Jesus, that the Law of Moses could not free us from our sins, and every person who believes in Jesus is free from all his sins. In Acts 13:23, Paul proclaimed Jesus, not God, as the savior. And again keep silent about what Matthew said in 7:21. With these teachings of Paul, Christians can commit all sorts of sins, from adultery, homosexuality, using drugs, to killing. In one moment the Christian is a born again by accepting Jesus as a savior, and then and only then can all his sins be forgiven. This was in contradiction with the teachings of John the Baptist, who was carrying the message of repentance to God, as this is the only way to human salvation. In a difficult and vague passage, Paul hinted about the original sin. When Adam sinned; "sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned." Roman (5:12). In the Gospel of Luke 11:13, Jesus was teaching about prayer, he says, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children." Tertullian coined the phrase original sin based upon the above verses of Paul and Luke. Then St. Augustine (354 - 430) took this idea from Tertullian and developed it further.

The church accepted this doctrine of Atonement and original sin four centuries after Jesus. It contradicts the Bible itself as in Deuteronomy 24:16: "The father shall not put to death for the children, neither the children be put to death for their father: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." In Jeremiah 31:30: "... But every one shall die for his own iniquity..." In Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die, the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." In Matthew 7:1-2: "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." In I Cor. 3:8: "...and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor." To prove that children are born without sin, Jesus asked not to let children suffer, (Matthew 19:14): "But Jesus said, suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

In the Middle Age, Aquinas, whose teachings became the essence of the official doctrine of the Roman Church, stated that the sin was in Adam. He insisted that the loss of the original righteousness was an ultimate grace from God and not a part of man’s created nature. This concept seems so vague. Most justice systems of the free world assume that a suspect is innocent until proven guilty. But this doctrine assumes that humans are guilty. Does this mean, God forbid, that human systems have more justice than the Creator of Justice Himself?

In Hebrews 1:3, it sates that the death of Son of God, who is made of the same substance as that of God, had purged our sins. But that death was a death of a real man. How, then, did the substance of God die? Christian scholars take great pain in explaining this intellectual puzzle, which only adds to the confusion of anyone. Religion is supposed to be simple, not only understood by the scholars but also by the average person or even the unlettered. How can anyone have faith in this doctrine that contradicts the Bible and is illogical? Faith should be accompanied by common sense. So, was Jesus crucified to save us from our original sin, and while being crucified asked God why did He abandon him?

This looks like a present day marketing ploy of shocking someone and then saving him by selling him a "cure-all." The Church tells you that you are condemned to hell, not because of what you did. Then the only way to save yourself is to accept a story about Jesus’ death on the cross. It is agreed upon that no one saw the process of resurrection. They found the sepulcher where Jesus was laid down empty, and came to the conclusion that he was resurrected because the disciples and other witnesses saw him alive after the supposed crucifixion. The Gospels alleged that Jesus should suffer, and that he was going to Jerusalem to die, and on the third day he would come back. But the Gospels did not say plainly that Jesus’ suffering had been to save us from the sin of Adam!
 

Duncan

Member
If it is up to the individual believer's behavior, is there a certain limit of sins they commit before it's too late?

To answer the question there is no limit of sins, I mean we human sin everyday and islam teach us to repent everyday and avoid to sin and if we fall into that we must repent immediately, I like this saying of the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him “Were you not to commit sins, Allah would create people who would commit sins and ask for forgiveness and He would forgive them.”

And God said: And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves [by transgression], remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins—and who can forgive sins except Allah?—and [who] do not persist in what they have done while they know. Qur’an 3:135

the sins are categorize into two category the major one like associating someone else with God, killing, and the minor one, If you repend and do Good and You die, God will forgive you, However If You die disbelieving in him and in what he sent down then its too late.

[For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, “My Lord, send me back that I might do righteousness in that which I left behind.” No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected. Qur’an 23:99-100

So basically dont sin, if you do repent, do good follow the command of God pray your prayer fast you month Give to charity, believe in the prophets the books the day of judgement and have trust in God that he is the only one who forgive, once the soul leave the body repentance is too late, I hope I answered to the question.
 
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