The U.S.A. And the case for ending the Union

[Thief]

Wow, that's not definitely not socialism, but that's not traditional capitalism either... What the heck is that?

It sounds like some kind of social-capitalism. A Frankenstein of various parts!

hmmmm…….am I at a pivot point?
to coin a new catch phrase?

economic aggression

Egression

 

[Thief]

or maybe …..Guido economics

an offer you cannot refuse

 

[Cooky]

or maybe …..Guido economics

an offer you cannot refuse

Yeah, LOL. I don't think the left or right would be for that.

 

[Flame]

New or maybe …..Guido economics

No no no.. Don't let my family have that much power.

 

[Thief]

Yeah, LOL. I don't think the left or right would be for that.

and I suspect
the Chinese don't care....left or right

they just want to come out on top

did you know?....the US doesn't make penicillin anymore
THEY do

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So I think a broad problem is, that we still haven't pinned down various rules about human nature. You guys are saying that it's one block of people against another block. The more I live and watch people, the less I am convinced that they would feel perpetually comfortable in groups any kind. Any 10 people doing something together who get along at the outset, will eventually dig in to each other even if it takes getting to the subtleties. At least in the context of the modern world, where a myriad market of choice exists, which perhaps fuels our ability to be more different from one another. Recognition of all this might be why the society has allowed for a sense of open political orientation. It's because it is engineered to allow this sense of human difference to be uncaged, which might only be caged otherwise

I'm talking about basic rights. In Indiana, Mike Pence removed those from me and allowed discrimination against an entire community. That is the Christian Republican Right, they made life unbearable for me, and they refuse to accept amything less than their religious dogma running (and ruining) the lives of others who dont even believe as they do. This can evem include other Christians who find themselves at odds against their brethren for not believing exactly the same.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I'm talking about basic rights. In Indiana, Mike Pence removed those from me and allowed discrimination against an entire community. That is the Christian Republican Right, they made life unbearable for me, and they refuse to accept amything less than their religious dogma running (and ruining) the lives of others who dont even believe as they do. This can evem include other Christians who find themselves at odds against their brethren for not believing exactly the same.

And I think he is in the wrong for having done that. But you know, the country has been moving incrementally to the left on a few things over the course of my 34 years. Gay rights I thought, was gaining ground on the macro sort of level, correct me if I'm wrong. I also think that we should maybe wait and see if Christianity really remains a majority position, for the rest of this century. Because honestly, I think it may become more of minority position, as religion is a domain that only now is revealing how customizable it can be to the mainstream public. Church attendance is dropping here. I made a thread on the idea that 'philosophical forums/churches' should be constructed across america, the time is becoming ripe for that, and I guarantee they would be an instant cultural hit. What could be more natural to western culture than the re-installation of physical community forums? In educating communities on a weekly basis in a more secular philosophy or spirituality, more rights might become further secured

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But you know, the country has been moving incrementally to the left on a few things over the course of my 34 years.

Some people and some parts of the country. Pence wasn't elected governor back when the 80s. He launched his anti-queer crusade as governor just a few years before Trump picked him to tag along.
And to reiterate and reinforce how this is not a universal "the country," where I lived in Indiana is still rather racist, with a few towns nearby that still to this day have a sundown town mentality.

 

[Milton Platt]

I want to believe I am wrong here. But the coronavirus crisis has made it clear that a certain section of the U.S. is willing to sacrifice there fellow citizens in order to protect the “economy”. Often that is a euphemism for their own wallets and money.

If it came down to a choice between their life and mine, I know what I would pick. And call me selfish, but when every vice, every corruption, every lie is justified as an inevitable consequence of “human nature”, you cannot show mercy or compassion or tolerance to those who will not and cannot demonstrate it to you.

The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

Where once I could understand the hatred of the right for communism and nazism, now they have become everything they claim to despise. Their actions speak louder than there words, and there words are so often lies that it is incredible and incomprehensible that they have the shamelessness to utter them.

That is not to say I am without feelings for them. But I would not wish to live with a partner who demonstrates, repeatedly and consistently, such staggering disregard for their own self-preservation or the lives of others.

What is the point of another election when the issues cannot be settled by reason and whose results be contested and assaulted whatever the outcome? When everything people have worked for is endangered by the incomprehensible absolutism of “freedom-at-any-price” or “economic-growth-at-any-price”, is it not time to part company and accept that this relationship cannot and will not work? Especially when neither side wishes or has the patience for it to do so?

I am willing to believe that by some freak of psychology, I may be misplaced but there are and always have been limits to tolerance based on the harm the abuse a person’s freedom can do to others.

I suspect, that many of these sentiments are widely shared, even by those whom these words are, in that imprecise and impersonal way, directed for their unwavering, uncompromising and incomprehensible loyalties.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

I can share your frustration over politics in the U.S., but I don't think dissolving the union would have any positive effect. People within the states would still be different and have different views. What you would have is a complete disruption of trade which would bring on a prolonged economic depression. States with oil would be able to deny those reserves to those who don't. States that are largely agrarian could deny food to those whose population is largely urban. States which are landlocked could be forced to fly in everything because they have been denied the ability to cross surrounding state's territory. State taxes would have to raise taxes in a major way to replace the federal funding now absent. There would be no common defense because there would be no funding for it. There would be no NASA because there would be no funding for it. There would be no border control because there would be no funding for it, and no uniform border laws. Could you see crossing the U.S. in a car and having to present your passport at every state's border?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Yes. It's very divided, and you cant please some. Like Christian Conservatives who want their personal relgious dogma as law and relegating minorities to a less than second class citizenship. I say let them have their own corner so they rest of us are never endangered by their unholy moral crusades again.

I see your frustration towards these Christians as understandable. Certain kinds of people, all I can do sometimes is feel sorry for them, for being the way they are. ...But I think kicking them out of our country might be a little extreme... I mean, they have rights and they don't all want to live in the same places together, I'm sure. So it might be too cruel to divide the country up in practical terms.

The idea isn't to kick anybody out of America but to end it and restart with two new constitutions. The problem is that liberals concentrate in three separated clusters, the West Coast (include Hawaii), the New England states and NY/NJ/PS/DE/MD, and the Great Lakes states (MN/WI/IL/OH/MI). Should this be three countries or can it operated as one?

I agree with @Shadow Wolf . I didn't want to live with conservative America any longer, especially Christian conservative America. I thought of them as my fellow Americans when I was young, but now they're not my fellow anythings. I don't share their values, beliefs, or morality.

And I know that those people feel exactly the same way about people like me. They're not friends. They aren't interested in our lives except to control them in their own self-interest. So why would I want to support their businesses or pay taxes that are spent on them at all? If they want to live in one of the liberal states, they can pay taxes to support a liberal agenda, or move like I did.

This: "'safe echo chamber' of post-truth, indifference-to-the-scientific, an orientation towards escapism" is highly overestimated IMO.

There's a recent thread about the WHO. Keep in mind that most Americans had no opinion about the WHO, certainly not the Fox News contingent, who probably couldn't spell it or what the letters stood for. Then the WHO was critical of Trump (and others who were slow to act), and suddenly - like within about two days - the WHO became the enemy in the conservative indoctrination media, and they all turned on the WHO in lockstep. That's the echo chamber.

Once again, I don't want to live with those people. I don't want to share a government or a neighborhood with them given how many there are. Perhaps the most meaningful statistic in America today is not an infection or death rate, but just how many of those people still support Trump. About 45% of America find that man not just acceptable, but desirable. What would a liberal, educated secular humanist have in common with such people, people that despise him for being liberal and/or an atheist? Why would we want to share a country with them or anything else?

Indifference to science is costing American lives, and these are the people responsible - conservatives, especially conservative Christians. Perhaps when the next pandemic comes along, perhaps liberals will live in a better country with better leadership and better ideas, and the Fox News crowds can just go to their beaches and infect one another. And build walls. And persecute LGBTQ. And cage children.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Isn't the idea of a representative republic that parties have to compromise?

Is there some problem with compromise?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

The idea isn't to kick anybody out of America but to end it and restart with two new constitutions. The problem is that liberals concentrate in three separated clusters, the West Coast (include Hawaii), the New England states and NY/NJ/PS/DE/MD, and the Great Lakes states (MN/WI/IL/OH/MI). Should this be three countries or can it operated as one?

I agree with @Shadow Wolf . I didn't want to live with conservative America any longer, especially Christian conservative America. I thought of them as my fellow Americans when I was young, but now they're not my fellow anythings. I don't share their values, beliefs, or morality.

And I know that those people feel exactly the same way about people like me. They're not friends. They aren't interested in our lives except to control them in their own self-interest. So why would I want to support their businesses or pay taxes that are spent on them at all? If they want to live in one of the liberal states, they can pay taxes to support a liberal agenda, or move like I did.



There's a recent thread about the WHO. Keep in mind that most Americans had no opinion about the WHO, certainly not the Fox News contingent, who probably couldn't spell it or what the letters stood for. Then the WHO was critical of Trump (and others who were slow to act), and suddenly - like within about two days - the WHO became the enemy in the conservative indoctrination media, and they all turned on the WHO in lockstep. That's the echo chamber.

Once again, I don't want to live with those people. I don't want to share a government or a neighborhood with them given how many there are. Perhaps the most meaningful statistic in America today is not an infection or death rate, but just how many of those people still support Trump. About 45% of America find that man not just acceptable, but desirable. What would a liberal, educated secular humanist have in common with such people, people that despise him for being liberal and/or an atheist? Why would we want to share a country with them or anything else?

Indifference to science is costing American lives, and these are the people responsible - conservatives, especially conservative Christians. Perhaps when the next pandemic comes along, perhaps liberals will live in a better country with better leadership and better ideas, and the Fox News crowds can just go to their beaches and infect one another. And build walls. And persecute LGBTQ. And cage children.

You don't want to live with us and we don't want to live with you.

I agree with you. We are too divided. Secession is the only way to solve the problem peaceably. This is something the South tried to do back in 1861. But governments and business do not worry about 'peace'. They worry only about money and power. And with secession comes a loss of both. Their answer: war.

My answer: Let each state decide it's own way by the vote. And if you live in a state and don't like the way it went, then move or be quiet and know that is where you live. Each state can then align itself with other states of like mindedness which gives access to local and international trade as both liberal and conservative states have borders with the oceans.

But there will be no 'federal govt. or 'federal law'. Each state can make it's own agreements with another state, but it can void them if they believe it is necessary for their benefit.

We are so divided that it is important that the people can live in a place where they are like minded with others. And there is really no other option save war. As that is what is coming.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[amorphous_constellation]

And I know that those people feel exactly the same way about people like me. They're not friends. They aren't interested in our lives except to control them in their own self-interest. So why would I want to support their businesses or pay taxes that are spent on them at all? If they want to live in one of the liberal states, they can pay taxes to support a liberal agenda, or move like I did.

I really am starting to think that this kind of thinking is not taking the long-view. And the long-view is, that american thought is changing. Frankly we should talk about generational differences. I am 34 years old. People my age and younger are not really going to church. No one my age is arriving on the scene with any inspiring message, frankly, that advocates for conservative political or religious values. It simply is not occurring. So as I pointed out, the sort of status quo you see now simply will not remain for the rest of the century, even if we stay together. So we might as well not divide, since the dichotomy itself is going out of vogue

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree with @Shadow Wolf . I didn't want to live with conservative America any longer, especially Christian conservative America. I thought of them as my fellow Americans when I was young, but now they're not my fellow anythings. I don't share their values, beliefs, or morality.

When I still lived in Indiana, every so often one of them would tell me to leave the state or country. Because, overall, they are intolerant douchebags who only care about their own rights and their assumed right to run over everyone with their dogma.
I'm inclined to think not aligned with those values has a far greater chance, by default, of being more tolerable and agreeable even than how they behave.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I really am starting to think that this kind of thinking is not taking the long-view. And the long-view is, that american thought is changing.

I believe at this point the best solution is to declare what nations we will formally have, assist those wanting/needing to relocate, and go from there. America is that divided, and it's largely being trampled by the religious right. Let them have their place, like the South and MidWest. Same with New England, an area not aligned with the religious right. Let the West Coast thrive with its own economy and laid back attitudes. Then there will be no more devate over sex ed and evolution. Creationists can be their stubborn selves and let just own turn into a scientifically illiterate population plagued with teen pregnancy. They can only ignore global warming and covid in their areas. They can only ban gay marrige in their own land. No one else ever has to be threatened by that again.

 

[Cooky]

Isn't the idea of a representative republic that parties have to compromise?

Is there some problem with compromise?

You have to remember that we're dealing with radical politicists here, who allow politics to dictate their personal life choices, in how they live and interact with others.

Of all the different paradigms in life, these people are sort of 'trapped' in that one place, or at least give it priority over all the other vast realms of thinking.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You don't want to live with us and we don't want to live with you.

I do just want to point out, you "Christian Conservative types" told me to leave, not the other way around. It makes me almost wish your religion is real, because how you treat the least among you is how you treat Christ.

 

[Cooky]

I really am starting to think that this kind of thinking is not taking the long-view. And the long-view is, that american thought is changing. Frankly we should talk about generational differences. I am 34 years old. People my age and younger are not really going to church. No one my age is arriving on the scene with any inspiring message, frankly, that advocates for conservative political or religious values. It simply is not occurring. So as I pointed out, the sort of status quo you see now simply will not remain for the rest of the century, even if we stay together. So we might as well not divide, since the dichotomy itself is going out of vogue

Besides the thoughtful thing's you've said, dividing the country in any such way is a total pipe dream.

How would they plan to get all the people who think a certain political way to all congregate together into one area or another... And the same vice versa..? And then when their children turn 18, they have to decide what politics they prefer, and then pack up and move accordingly? It's beyond ridiculous -- A total pipe dream.

...This is why it's better, at least for me, to ignore this impossible fantasy.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

And then when their children turn 18, they have to decide what politics they prefer, and then pack up and move accordingly?

well, they could do it like the Amish.. who have something called 'rumspringa' I think. And by the way, what would these three divisions do with people who might not quite fit in with the three divisions.. like maybe the Amish, or Native Americans, or people who think that different political issues are non-dichotomous, as one's collection of views can really actually be combined in more than two categories

 

[Cooky]

well, they could do it like the Amish.. who have something called 'rumspringa' I think. And by the way, what would these three divisions do with people who might not quite fit in with the three divisions.. like maybe the Amish, or Native Americans, or people who think that different political issues are non-dichotomous, as one's collection of views can really actually be combined in more than two categories

Ideological divisions are only abstract human thoughts. I find it amusing that anyone could fathom transforming this thinking into a physical reality, by dividing the current generation into politically preferred camps, and then assume that two generations later anything would be the same.

Total pipe dream.

...Essentially, the only *real* goal to this, would be the total destruction of the United States by haters who hate this country, and probably hate a host of other things... It's obvious. This is all about hate.