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The Genesis Account

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Sorry to say, if taken at the literalistic level, the Genesis account doesn't make much sense based on what we now do know. If taken as allegory, and I believe it was likely designed as such to counter the earlier and much more widespread Babylonian polytheistic account, then it very much can and does make sense, imo.

You believe it to be allegorical because you see it as a monotheistic polemic against Babylonian cosmology., but to polemically counterpose A to B does not make A allegoric. On the contrary, it is an attempt to counterpose more accurate 'facts'.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
really all these stories are like tributes made by impersonators who came after the fact and can really only give as best a tribute they can.
.... individual results obviously varied [but they were made at different times and the seasons and stars change, so do the stories, to reflect the story written in the skies..playing in your neighborhood every night [weather permitting of course]
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You believe it to be allegorical because you see it as a monotheistic polemic against Babylonian cosmology., but to polemically counterpose A to B does not make A allegoric. On the contrary, it is an attempt to counterpose more accurate 'facts'.
We simply cannot know today what the authors' intents were. We do know that at least some in eretz Israel would have known about the Babylonian creation narrative as a tablet of such was found in northern Israel that predates the writing of Genesis. At my former shul, we studied this, using the lessons from an archaeologist.

The art of storytelling is one that is often lost on us "moderns" today, but that was a very traditional and wide-spread way of communicating values and morals, especially in societies with low literacy rates. Thus, when we look at some of these narratives and then put them into the attempted "fact" category, it's all too easy to miss what may well have been going on.

IOW, it's the "message" that's much more important here, and when we use that paradigm, the Genesis creation accounts take on much more meaning as so much is packed in there that we tend to take for granted today. .
 

izzy88

Active Member
Sorry to say, if taken at the literalistic level, the Genesis account doesn't make much sense based on what we now do know. If taken as allegory, and I believe it was likely designed as such to counter the earlier and much more widespread Babylonian polytheistic account, then it very much can and does make sense, imo.
The explanation given in the OP is not literalistic, though. Did you actually read it?
 

izzy88

Active Member
Obviously Moses was not the only person to whom a god imparted such knowledge...

51zTFpsJprL._SX398_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


In the book, there are just 25 of thousands of creation stories man has concocted. The following review hits the nail on the head...



https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Creation-Stories-Around-World/dp/0152387420
Reviewed in the United States on January 4, 2020
Verified Purchase
My kindergarten and 2nd grade daughters are enjoying these. They are starting to hear lots of stuff about how god created the earth at school, so this book is helping to temper that “knowledge”. Stories are pretty short and there is some background information for each one.
It always amazes me that OT believers think there is something special about their creation story.

So, your argument is that the fact that there are several varying allegorical stories about how the world came to be means that they all must be equally wrong?

Do I really need to explain why that doesn't make any sense?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I recently authored the simple thread about the term Creationism and why it is a misnomer to call everyone that believes in the Bible a creationist:

Evolution vs "Creationism" Why the Term is Predijudical

So what about the Genesis Account? Can it be reconciled with science?

I wish to author this thread to explain not only that it can, but when observed from the correct viewpoint it becomes obvious that a nomadic wanderer some 3,500 years ago could not have written what he did without supernatural revelation.


The Genesis Account

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."-Genesis 1:1.

So starts the Genesis account of creation and the very first 10 words of the Bible. Is the statement scientifically sound?

Scientists tend to agree that the universe is expanding from what they term an explosion that started the universe known as the Big Bang. Most scientists agree that the universe had a start. And there is verifiable evidence by looking at the universe that it did.

So yes, the universe had a beginning. If cosmologists are correct it was some 13.8 billion years ago. Does the Bible account specify how long ago the universe and then later on the earth were formed? No it does not. But it does state correctly that the universe, in the sometime distant past, had a beginning.

The rest of the Genesis account is not referring to the creation of the already existing heaven and earth from verse 1. Rather it is the account of how God started to prepare the already existing earth in the already existing universe according to verse 1 for life.

There is one more thing to be mentioned here before continuing to understand the Genesis account. And it has to do with the word day. In Hebrew the word can connotate a number of things, and it is obvious that in the context it is referring to long unspecified periods of times, and not a literal 24 hour period of time.

For example in chapter 2 of Genesis we are told:

"This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."-Genesis 2:4.

Here Genesis uses the word day to encompass all the preceding days in chapter 1. In the day God made heaven and earth. Obviously this is not referring to a literal 24 hour period of time.

Let us look on from the perspective of someone on earth as he was given the Genesis account.




Day 1:

"Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters."-Genesis 1:2.

If you notice we start out with the earth already existing in the already existing universe. The universe is now untold billions of years old, and perhaps the earth too. At this point in earth's history it is completely covered with water. And the atmosphere is completely shrouded in cloud. That is, on the earth's surface the atmosphere was so thick, the light from the existing sun could not penetrate to the watery surface.



Day 2:

"Then God said: “Let there be an expanse between the waters, and let there be a division between the waters and the waters.”  Then God went on to make the expanse and divided the waters beneath the expanse from the waters above the expanse. And it was so."-Genesis 1:6, 7.

The water vapor in the thick atmosphere lifted from between the waters on the earth and a division was made between the clouds in the sky and on the surface. Notice that while the sun and moon and stars have already been in existence for billions of years from the viewpoint of a person on earth at this point in its history they were not visible yet.





Day 3:

"Then God said: “Let the waters under the heavens be collected together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so.  God called the dry land Earth, but the collecting of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.  Then God said: “Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.” And it was so."-Genesis 1:9-11.

During this eon of time God had dry land appear on earth. That is when he called the waters Seas and the dry ground Earth.



Day 4:

"Then God said: “Let there be luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night, and they will serve as signs for seasons and for days and years.  They will serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.”-Genesis 1:14, 15.

During this period of time the earth's atmosphere was cleared up enough so that the sun and moon became visible from its surface.




Day 5:

"Then God said: “Let the waters swarm with living creatures, and let flying creatures fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.”  And God created the great sea creatures and all living creatures that move and swarm in the waters according to their kinds and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."-Genesis 1:21, 22.

During this epoch God created living creates in the sea and the birds of the heaven.



Day 6:

"Then God said: “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds, domestic animals and creeping animals and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so.  And God went on to make the wild animals of the earth according to their kinds and the domestic animals according to their kinds and all the creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds."-Genesis 1:24, 25.

During this last day of creation God finally creates animals on dry land, both domestic and wild. This would include the dinosaurs that lived for a time and eventually passed off the world scene.

And finally as his last work of creation on earth God created the the man and woman.

Looking at the fossil record, the appearance of sea creatures, winged creatures, the animals on land, and finally humans all concur with how it appears in the Genesis account. And they did not just gradually appear over long periods of times. But they appeared suddenly in the fossil record.

Is the Genesis account a scientific account of how the universe came to be and life on earth? No. of course not. Is it scientifically sound and reliable? Totally. Could Moses have really known all of this 3,500 years ago? Or was he given divine revelation in simple but understandable terms about our origin?

So, does that entail that the Bible confirms that men, pigs and carrots, among other things, have a common ancestor?

Ciao

- viole
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
We cannot know, but we can draw reasonable inferences. and I do not believe that your "it was (likely) allegorical because it was polemical" clears that bar.
Some theologians believe that it is likely that the creation accounts may be more poetic in nature, thus subject to "poetic license". Also, the concept that these accounts may have been carried orally for decades, or even longer, before being submitted to the form we now read should be considered in the running, imo.

Thus, for me, I'm less enthralled by literalness than they being used possibly more as "myth"-- used anthropologically of course.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi Polymath. Orbits are the result of a perfect balance between the forward motion of a body in space, such as a planet or moon, and the pull of gravity on it from another body in space, such as a large planet or star. Note the word perfect.
That is simply wrong. ANY forward motion will result in some sort of orbit. A slower forward motion initially will give an eccentric orbit. A larger forward motion will produce something closer to a circle. An even large forward motion will produce a much larger ellipse. And then more will give a parabola or hyperbola.

Yahweh's creation shows perfection whether that's an eclipse in the sky, to our solar system. An object with a lot of mass goes forward and wants to keep going forward; however, the gravity of another body in space pulls it in. This tug of war between the object wanting to go forward and the other wanting to pull it in creates an orbit. This is exactly what would have happened with the creation of the Sun to create the orbits.

And it happens no matter what the forward motion. Unless the forward motion is *zero*, there will be an orbit formed. That is simply the nature of an inverse square force law.

No 'perfection' is required.

I've concentrated on Pluto because it's the most famous TNO.

The origin of the highly eccentric, inclined, and resonance-locked orbit of Pluto has long been a puzzle to scientists.

And that is part of why it is not now counted among the planets: it has the type of orbit common to other TNOs.


Well, given your understanding of orbits, I would say definitely.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Some theologians believe that it is likely that the creation accounts may be more poetic in nature, thus subject to "poetic license".
This allows "some theologians" to hold precariously to the view that Torah is inerrant.

Also, the concept that these accounts may have been carried orally for decades, or even longer, before being submitted to the form we now read should be considered in the running, imo.
William M. Schniedewind's How the Bible Became a Book is excellent in this regard.

But, again, that fact that Genesis likely underwent generations of oral transmission and refinement in no way implies that its creation account was intended as allegorical.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
This: "Looking at the fossil record, the appearance of sea creatures, winged creatures, the animals on land, and finally humans all concur with how it appears in the Genesis account. And they did not just gradually appear over long periods of times. But they appeared suddenly in the fossil record."

This is utter rubbish, but cleverly slipped in towards the end. This is the point at which, as I said, the bacillus of pseudoscience gets in, opening the way for the creepy dishonesty of "Intelligent Design" to be introduced.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
I recently authored the simple thread about the term Creationism and why it is a misnomer to call everyone that believes in the Bible a creationist:

Evolution vs "Creationism" Why the Term is Predijudical

So what about the Genesis Account? Can it be reconciled with science?

I wish to author this thread to explain not only that it can, but when observed from the correct viewpoint it becomes obvious that a nomadic wanderer some 3,500 years ago could not have written what he did without supernatural revelation.


The Genesis Account

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."-Genesis 1:1.

So starts the Genesis account of creation and the very first 10 words of the Bible. Is the statement scientifically sound?

Scientists tend to agree that the universe is expanding from what they term an explosion that started the universe known as the Big Bang. Most scientists agree that the universe had a start. And there is verifiable evidence by looking at the universe that it did.

So yes, the universe had a beginning. If cosmologists are correct it was some 13.8 billion years ago. Does the Bible account specify how long ago the universe and then later on the earth were formed? No it does not. But it does state correctly that the universe, in the sometime distant past, had a beginning.

The rest of the Genesis account is not referring to the creation of the already existing heaven and earth from verse 1. Rather it is the account of how God started to prepare the already existing earth in the already existing universe according to verse 1 for life.

There is one more thing to be mentioned here before continuing to understand the Genesis account. And it has to do with the word day. In Hebrew the word can connotate a number of things, and it is obvious that in the context it is referring to long unspecified periods of times, and not a literal 24 hour period of time.

For example in chapter 2 of Genesis we are told:

"This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven."-Genesis 2:4.

Here Genesis uses the word day to encompass all the preceding days in chapter 1. In the day God made heaven and earth. Obviously this is not referring to a literal 24 hour period of time.

Let us look on from the perspective of someone on earth as he was given the Genesis account.




Day 1:

"Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters."-Genesis 1:2.

If you notice we start out with the earth already existing in the already existing universe. The universe is now untold billions of years old, and perhaps the earth too. At this point in earth's history it is completely covered with water. And the atmosphere is completely shrouded in cloud. That is, on the earth's surface the atmosphere was so thick, the light from the existing sun could not penetrate to the watery surface.



Day 2:

"Then God said: “Let there be an expanse between the waters, and let there be a division between the waters and the waters.”  Then God went on to make the expanse and divided the waters beneath the expanse from the waters above the expanse. And it was so."-Genesis 1:6, 7.

The water vapor in the thick atmosphere lifted from between the waters on the earth and a division was made between the clouds in the sky and on the surface. Notice that while the sun and moon and stars have already been in existence for billions of years from the viewpoint of a person on earth at this point in its history they were not visible yet.





Day 3:

"Then God said: “Let the waters under the heavens be collected together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so.  God called the dry land Earth, but the collecting of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.  Then God said: “Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.” And it was so."-Genesis 1:9-11.

During this eon of time God had dry land appear on earth. That is when he called the waters Seas and the dry ground Earth.



Day 4:

"Then God said: “Let there be luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night, and they will serve as signs for seasons and for days and years.  They will serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.”-Genesis 1:14, 15.

During this period of time the earth's atmosphere was cleared up enough so that the sun and moon became visible from its surface.




Day 5:

"Then God said: “Let the waters swarm with living creatures, and let flying creatures fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.”  And God created the great sea creatures and all living creatures that move and swarm in the waters according to their kinds and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."-Genesis 1:21, 22.

During this epoch God created living creates in the sea and the birds of the heaven.



Day 6:

"Then God said: “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds, domestic animals and creeping animals and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so.  And God went on to make the wild animals of the earth according to their kinds and the domestic animals according to their kinds and all the creeping animals of the ground according to their kinds."-Genesis 1:24, 25.

During this last day of creation God finally creates animals on dry land, both domestic and wild. This would include the dinosaurs that lived for a time and eventually passed off the world scene.

And finally as his last work of creation on earth God created the the man and woman.

Looking at the fossil record, the appearance of sea creatures, winged creatures, the animals on land, and finally humans all concur with how it appears in the Genesis account. And they did not just gradually appear over long periods of times. But they appeared suddenly in the fossil record.

Is the Genesis account a scientific account of how the universe came to be and life on earth? No. of course not. Is it scientifically sound and reliable? Totally. Could Moses have really known all of this 3,500 years ago? Or was he given divine revelation in simple but understandable terms about our origin?
I think plants appearing on day 3 followed by the appearance of the sun in day 4 throws the soundness of the story right off.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I think plants appearing on day 3 followed by the appearance of the sun in day 4 throws the soundness of the story right off.
To be fair, the scenario seems, as I read it, to be that the sun became visible on Earth on Day 4, when the clouds cleared. I thought that was quite neat.

It goes off the rails on Day 6 with this nonsense about sudden appearance of species.

But, from another thread, it seems my guess that this is all a Trojan Horse for ID was correct. This poster is quoting Denton's farcical 1985 book "Evolution: a Theory in Crisis". So it's ID all right. :confused:
 

izzy88

Active Member
This: "Looking at the fossil record, the appearance of sea creatures, winged creatures, the animals on land, and finally humans all concur with how it appears in the Genesis account. And they did not just gradually appear over long periods of times. But they appeared suddenly in the fossil record."

This is utter rubbish, but cleverly slipped in towards the end. This is the point at which, as I said, the bacillus of pseudoscience gets in, opening the way for the creepy dishonesty of "Intelligent Design" to be introduced.

Ah, yeah I agree with you there, that part made me shake my head. I think overall the post was an interesting take, pointing out how the order of creation described in the story aligns with what we know about the order of when/how things on the Earth happened/were formed, but that paragraph you quoted took it too far.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Ah, yeah I agree with you there, that part made me shake my head. I think overall the post was an interesting take, pointing out how the order of creation described in the story aligns with what we know about the order of when/how things on the Earth happened/were formed, but that paragraph you quoted took it too far.
Now that I've found out this poster is pushing ID, I'll be sharpening my scrutiny of what he or she posts. ID is deeply devious stuff.
 
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