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The U.S.A. And the case for ending the Union

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I want to believe I am wrong here. But the coronavirus crisis has made it clear that a certain section of the U.S. is willing to sacrifice there fellow citizens in order to protect the “economy”. Often that is a euphemism for their own wallets and money.

If it came down to a choice between their life and mine, I know what I would pick. And call me selfish, but when every vice, every corruption, every lie is justified as an inevitable consequence of “human nature”, you cannot show mercy or compassion or tolerance to those who will not and cannot demonstrate it to you.

The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

Where once I could understand the hatred of the right for communism and nazism, now they have become everything they claim to despise. Their actions speak louder than there words, and there words are so often lies that it is incredible and incomprehensible that they have the shamelessness to utter them.

That is not to say I am without feelings for them. But I would not wish to live with a partner who demonstrates, repeatedly and consistently, such staggering disregard for their own self-preservation or the lives of others.

What is the point of another election when the issues cannot be settled by reason and whose results be contested and assaulted whatever the outcome? When everything people have worked for is endangered by the incomprehensible absolutism of “freedom-at-any-price” or “economic-growth-at-any-price”, is it not time to part company and accept that this relationship cannot and will not work? Especially when neither side wishes or has the patience for it to do so?

I am willing to believe that by some freak of psychology, I may be misplaced but there are and always have been limits to tolerance based on the harm the abuse a person’s freedom can do to others.

I suspect, that many of these sentiments are widely shared, even by those whom these words are, in that imprecise and impersonal way, directed for their unwavering, uncompromising and incomprehensible loyalties.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'll stick with the union, ie, being a republic.
So I hate your proposal....but it is creative.

I feel like nowadays many right-wingers would douse themselves in petrol and set themselves alight and then insist that they do this on a regular basis as a pleasurable activity and a hobby to express their freedom and how much Jesus loves them. Or else are imagining ways of chopping me up in to small pieces and hiding my remains in the wall cavities. Then they just look and smile at you in the "I'm a serial killer because its fun and I get off on it" kind of way that just makes you want to scramble for the nearest exit.

Whatever my reason and intellect says, my inner child wants to hide behind the sofa or get out of the house as fast as I can. I miss the days when I found doctor who scary. :eek:

But, you I can understand. I can imagine you being a friendly elderly neighbour who is putting his garbage out at the end of the driveway. And, incidentally, you happen to be right-wing. It's not so all consuming that I can't see your point of view. You just want lower taxes and roll your eyes and cringe at your nauseatingly politically correct white liberal neighbours trying not to embarrass themselves around the new black couple that's moved in to the neighbourhood.

And I like you. :)

I hope that doesn't damage your street cred. :D
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I'll try to make a case for sticking together.. I really think coming apart could probably only mean civil war, or at least an internal resource war at some point down the line. The peaceful alternative that I see, is one of actual social evolution as opposed to revolution. And for that to happen, perhaps groups need to realize that they don't have all the answers, that there is room for a sort of teleological growth from various points. That we can't really make society into a sort of 'agreement contest,' as that basically may lead to a sort of social incest. And so progress happens as a byproduct of allowing freedom in teleological opinion, even if that sometimes entails debate and great differences in approach
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I suspect, that many of these sentiments are widely shared, even by those whom these words are, in that imprecise and impersonal way, directed for their unwavering, uncompromising and incomprehensible loyalties.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

It could possibly come to that, although we also have a shared historical experience of what happened the last time someone wanted a permanent and peaceful separation between the states. It certainly wasn't peaceful.

The political divisions aren't really about "America," per se. Multiple factions all seem to use the same building blocks and historical imagery from Americana. They all seem to think that they're "more American" than the other.

Liberals and conservatives may have slightly different values, yet they both exude the same measure of arrogance, pride, and the absolute belief that they are right and the other side is wrong. The only thing that's really kept them together and able to compromise is that they still had enough overlapping shared values upon which both could agree. But even that seems somewhat diminished in recent times.

There are also regional divisions within America itself, and over the course of my lifetime, I have observed the emergence of certain "secessionist" ideas, but mostly they seem tongue-in-cheek. For example, there have been those who have called for Southern Arizona to secede from the rest of the state, calling it "Baja Arizona." It's not really a serious proposal, and it's treated mostly as a joke, but to be honest, I really wouldn't mind if we did that.

I recall various times when Northern California wanted to break off from Southern California, and more recently, some have talked about all of California seceding and becoming an independent nation-state.

Another idea that occasionally gets floated is having the states of the US Southwest secede, along with a concurrent secession of Northern Mexican states seceding from that country, and forming an independent "Republica Del Norte," which is actually kind of interesting when you think about it.

If there was some kind of break-up of America, another possibility might be along the typical "Red State"/"Blue State" dichotomy, or possibly regional, with the "Coastals" forming one nation and "Middle America"/"Flyover Country" would be another nation. One problem might be Alaska, as they may either become independent themselves, or opt to remain within the "Red State" coalition. If they choose the latter, then Middle America might have to invade and occupy part of the West Coast territory to gain coastal access. Or they might have to invade Canada, which itself might go through a bit of a "break up."

The East Coast territory might also be somewhat boxed in, and they would likely become more heavily dependent upon and dominated by Europe.

The West Coast would likely become dependent upon Asian and Latin American countries, who would have the opportunity to form stronger coalitions and become the dominant power in the region.

This could have global repercussions, since the power vacuum left by the collapse of America will see other countries scrambling to fill it.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I'll try to make a case for sticking together.. I really think coming apart could probably only mean civil war, or at least an internal resource war at some point down the line. The peaceful alternative that I see, is one of actual social evolution as opposed to revolution. And for that to happen, perhaps groups need to realize that they don't have all the answers, that there is room for a sort of teleological growth from various points. That we can't really make society into a sort of 'agreement contest,' as that basically may lead to a sort of social incest. And so progress happens as a byproduct of allowing freedom in teleological opinion, even if that sometimes entails debate and great differences in approach
It's the anti-intellectuals vs. the rest. People who take pride in supporting Big Oil and denying the science of the problem. Even if that means they'll be hurt in the process.

The only way for the cult of Trump/Teapartiers to change is if RW gossip vanished. That's who controls everything they know and do.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I want to believe I am wrong here. But the coronavirus crisis has made it clear that a certain section of the U.S. is willing to sacrifice there fellow citizens in order to protect the “economy”. Often that is a euphemism for their own wallets and money.

If it came down to a choice between their life and mine, I know what I would pick. And call me selfish, but when every vice, every corruption, every lie is justified as an inevitable consequence of “human nature”, you cannot show mercy or compassion or tolerance to those who will not and cannot demonstrate it to you.

The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

Where once I could understand the hatred of the right for communism and nazism, now they have become everything they claim to despise. Their actions speak louder than there words, and there words are so often lies that it is incredible and incomprehensible that they have the shamelessness to utter them.

That is not to say I am without feelings for them. But I would not wish to live with a partner who demonstrates, repeatedly and consistently, such staggering disregard for their own self-preservation or the lives of others.

What is the point of another election when the issues cannot be settled by reason and whose results be contested and assaulted whatever the outcome? When everything people have worked for is endangered by the incomprehensible absolutism of “freedom-at-any-price” or “economic-growth-at-any-price”, is it not time to part company and accept that this relationship cannot and will not work? Especially when neither side wishes or has the patience for it to do so?

I am willing to believe that by some freak of psychology, I may be misplaced but there are and always have been limits to tolerance based on the harm the abuse a person’s freedom can do to others.

I suspect, that many of these sentiments are widely shared, even by those whom these words are, in that imprecise and impersonal way, directed for their unwavering, uncompromising and incomprehensible loyalties.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?
I agree with Jefferson and that it's just too big to run as one. Of course that was a comment regarding the Louisiana Purchase, but today despite technology there just is no singular and unitex America. The coasts are our own way, the MidWest have their own ways of doing things, New England is its own area, and the South is also its own way. Even with language. Some want English only, here that would not work.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It's the anti-intellectuals vs. the rest. People who take pride in supporting Big Oil and denying the science of the problem. Even if that means they'll be hurt in the process.

The only way for the cult of Trump/Teapartiers to change is if RW gossip vanished. That's who controls everything they know and do.

This feels closer to the mark to me. I feel like it's moderates vs. extremists. Now it's probably true that the extremists at either end wouldn't tolerate each other, so I guess there are 3 camps. But I feel as though most of us are moderates, and I think that moderate liberals can be good neighbors with moderate conservatives. But I don't think that GOP in Washington really represents moderate conservatives anymore.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I feel like nowadays many right-wingers would douse themselves in petrol and set themselves alight and then insist that they do this on a regular basis as a pleasurable activity and a hobby to express their freedom and how much Jesus loves them. Or else are imagining ways of chopping me up in to small pieces and hiding my remains in the wall cavities. Then they just look and smile at you in the "I'm a serial killer because its fun and I get off on it" kind of way that just makes you want to scramble for the nearest exit.

Whatever my reason and intellect says, my inner child wants to hide behind the sofa or get out of the house as fast as I can. I miss the days when I found doctor who scary. :eek:

But, you I can understand. I can imagine you being a friendly elderly neighbour who is putting his garbage out at the end of the driveway. And, incidentally, you happen to be right-wing. It's not so all consuming that I can't see your point of view. You just want lower taxes and roll your eyes and cringe at your nauseatingly politically correct white liberal neighbours trying not to embarrass themselves around the new black couple that's moved in to the neighbourhood.

And I like you. :)

I hope that doesn't damage your street cred. :D
"Right wing" can mean different things.
1) Authoritarian
2) Economically liberal (as in permissive....lacking coercions).
I'll take door #2, Monty....you likeable rascal, you.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Well, at least Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea would be happy for the US to break up. Essentially, we'd be turning the world over to them.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Well, at least Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea would be happy for the US to break up. Essentially, we'd be turning the world over to them.

That's exactly what they want. They want Russia and China to take Control over the world.

@Vouthon..? I'm very disappointed.
 
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Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

Problem would mostly be solved with much greater decentralisation to state and municipal levels. Diverse systems need to be decentralised otherwise they become battlegrounds for the central authority. At the moment 50% win big and 50% lose big every election, with sufficient decentralisation you can move that to maybe 80-20% win/loss or better.

The Federal Govt would remain for foreign policy, defence and international trade but would have much reduced powers.

Much easier to coexist when the decisions of a NY liberal have minimal impact on a Alabama conservative, and vice versa.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I don't give the United States excellent odds of surviving this century. But I do think we need to hold out as long as we can -- not just for our own sake, but for the sake of others. What promises to come after us is likely to make our own often criminal behavior on the world stage look downright saintly.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I don't give the United States excellent odds of surviving this century. But I do think we need to hold out as long as we can -- not just for our own sake, but for the sake of others. What promises to come after us is likely to make our often criminal behavior on the world state look downright saintly.

Obviously, some people, especially Russian / Chinese style communists are going to try and use this pandemic to their advantage. That's more of a shame than anything I've seen in a long time.

...People's true colors are showing.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@Laika Most assuredly, I hope your prognosis on the health of the American Union proves to be wrong. There's been a great power struggle brewing on the world stage for quite some time and this pandemic, I fear, is set to propel it to a new - potentially deadly - stage.

The United States is still the anchor - or pivot, an authoritarian and increasingly assertive China being the other major pole, alongside an insular-focused Europe fraught with our own fautlines - of the global economy (whatever remains of it, anyway) and the most, hitherto, successful liberal democracy. I live in hope that an FDR-style politician can emerge to rejuvenate their politics and founding ideals.

However, the reason I put a 'winner' tag on your OP is that I regard your dissection of contemporary culture in the U.S. to be so very on point. I can't remember who said it but there's an adage to the effect that: "Americans view the world like an action movie, Europeans like a documentary".

As a European, I've found myself feeling more and more disengaged culturally from America over the last decade, ever since the twilight years of Obama (when the old flame lingered), to the extent that I now seriously question - to my never failing surprise - whether we share a common 'Western' civilisation at all anymore (in the 19th - 20th century, interwar fascism aside, we most definitely did constitute a single transatlantic civilisational space).

I'm logging off for dinner but I'll write more regarding my thoughts on this later on.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
@Laika Most assuredly, I hope your prognosis on the health of the American Union proves to be wrong. There's been a great power struggle brewing on the world stage for quite some time and this pandemic, I fear, is set to propel it to a new - potentially deadly - stage.

The United States is still the anchor - or pivot, an authoritarian and increasingly assertive China being the other major pole, alongside an insular-focused Europe fraught with our own fautlines - of the global economy (whatever remains of it, anyway) and the most, hitherto, successful liberal democracy. I live in hope that an FDR-style politician can emerge to rejuvenate their politics and founding ideals.

However, the reason I put a 'winner' tag on your OP is that I regard your dissection of contemporary culture in the U.S. to be so very on point. I can't remember who said it but there's an adage to the effect that: "Americans view the world like an action movie, Europeans like a documentary".

As a European, I've found myself feeling more and more disengaged culturally from America over the last decade, ever since the twilight years of Obama (when the old flame lingered), to the extent that I now seriously question - to my never failing surprise - whether we share a common 'Western' civilisation at all anymore (in the 19th - 20th century, interwar fascism aside, we most definitely did constitute a single transatlantic civilisational space).

I'm logging off for dinner but I'll write more regarding my thoughts on this later on.

You've probably never even been to the United States... But you like to believe: "Americans view the world like an action movie, Europeans like a documentary". :rolleyes:
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
All things come to an end sooner or later.

Yes, but the notion of partisanship is exaggerated by the MSM, and doesn't reflect the actual atmosphere in America.

...We're still very united. Only fringe radicals hope for the destruction of the U.S... Or fools who believe what they read, but have never been here.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

That is the crux for me.

A scholar of Putinist Russia, Peter Pomerantsev, has described that country as being a place where: "Nothing is True and Everything is Possible".

There is definitely something of the road to unreality in the contemporary American public sphere, the trading of truth and objective analysis for a 'safe echo chamber' of post-truth, indifference-to-the-scientific, an orientation towards escapism. What began as a minor cultural peculiarity has now mutated I feel - especially in the Trump years - into a mass national phenomenon. Its almost as if the 'action movies' and entertainment industry (bred, I must note, by mass consumerism) have infected every dimension of political life.

In Britain, there is considerable fragmentation - Remain or Brexit, Tories and Labour, Scottish Nationalism versus Unionism - yet we have some core public 'goods' that surpass factional divisions, as signified by the outpouring of goodwill from all sectors of British society towards our frontline health workers in the NHS - the "clap for your NHS" campaign:

NHS staff thank public in TV broadcast after UK erupts in applause for workers fighting coronavirus

The NHS is the closest thing the UK has to a shared civic religion. But at least we have that in common and beyond contestation.

On the contrary, I have never come across a culture quite like the one that is coming to fruition in - what had been a vibrant, thriving (if flawed, like all societies) liberal democracy - the United States, with its formerly relatively sane bipartisan system morphing into this almost complete horror story and mockery of the democratic exercise itself. The exception is Putin's Russia but as I think we can all agree that's not the kind of company you want to keep.
 
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