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Who is Jesus to Non-Christians?

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
Running off a series of dialogues with those in different faiths, I want to ask a very fundamental question. Who is Jesus to those who don't believe in Him as the Son of God or Messiah as written in parts of the Bible? How does Jesus influence you whether or not he is a main figure in your beliefs? Does your religion pull from some of His doctrines and if so you don't mind sharing what? As Christians consider Him with reverence, please show reverence as well, but I would like to get to know the differing opinions of this inter-faith figure known as Jesus the Christ. Here is an example of a Rabbi finding connections with his faith and Christianity, just to see an example of what I am asking

 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I will assume Jesus was an actual historical, although some find that controversial.

My view is that he was an 'agitator' with ties to those who became Zealots, expressing the dislike of the local Jewish populace with those in control. his religious message was pretty much in line with those of the Pharisees. He was one of a fairly long list of itinerant preachers of that time. I doubt that the historical Jesus saw himself as divine--that belief came later when Paul overturned things.

Once he died, Paul took over the group of followers and invented a form of Christianity. Over the course of the next three centuries, the theology was invented to support these views, and the Roman empire's adoption of them. This involved labeling some texts as canonical and others as heretical. The difference wasn't decided until quite late (Arian Christianity is an example of a late version that disagreed with the orthodox views).

Anyway, I see Jesus as a Jewish agitator trying to get people to go back to their old beliefs and to fight those who were seen as illegitimate rulers.
 

Agnostisch

Egyptian Man
The controversy over the reality of the character of the reformed Jewish youth Jesus of Nazareth, an old debate that lasts nearly two thousand years, and still !
From the middle of the first century AD, with the emergence of a human community that believed that Jesus of Nazareth possessed the characteristics of the divine, and then began to develop gradually until it culminated in this young Jew being regarded as the Creator God !
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Who is Jesus to those who don't believe in Him as the Son of God or Messiah as written in parts of the Bible?

To me, Jesus was one incarnation of the Avatar. In this i separate the Christ or Avatar from the historical Jesus. So I'd say that there have been been many Jesus but there is only one Christ.

How does Jesus influence you whether or not he is a main figure in your beliefs?

I honor all manifestations of God in human form, including Jesus.

Does your religion pull from some of His doctrines and if so you don't mind sharing what?

In the Bible, Jesus is recorded as stating the two "Greatest Commandments" which are also in the OT but not so dramatically underlined. The statement of the law of love is paramount to me.

Further, the Bible says that "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” I am of one mind and one heart with that statement that anything which does not reflect love is an error.

This is underlined by my background being Jewish though I don't practice Judaism. But I do have a special fondness for the great Tzaddik Baal Shem Tov who said: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Why? Because every human being has a root in the Unity, and to reject the minutest particle of the Unity is to reject it all.”
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
My view is that he was an 'agitator' with ties to those who became Zealots, expressing the dislike of the local Jewish populace with those in control. his religious message was pretty much in line with those of the Pharisees. He was one of a fairly long list of itinerant preachers of that time. I doubt that the historical Jesus saw himself as divine--that belief came later when Paul overturned things.

Interesting perspective!

So far as my reading of the historical Jesus scholarship goes, I would say you're spot on about five things-

(1) that Jesus was an 'agitator'; (2) he gave expression to grassroots discontent and ferment (often manifesting itself in apocalypticism) among the colonised for a better (post-Roman imperial) order; (3) he was one among a multitude of other itinerant preachers of that late Second Temple era, ranging from Honi the Circle-Drawer and the anonymous Samaritan prophet to his own teacher John the Baptist; (4) he had the most in common theologically with the Pharisee party and (5) there is no persuasive evidence Jesus understood himself to be 'God' in his lifetime.

I think your off on 'two points'. Because its such an effective summary, though, I'd like to go through your points one-by-one with reference to scholarship.....

(Whilst I'm a Christian, the information I am collating below is derived from purely secular scholarly perspectives that don't align with Christian orthodoxy, so it still fits the the thread OP.)


1. Agitator

He certainly seems to have been an 'agitator', one may even say - applying an anachronism from our own contemporary idiom - a "populist": "Jesus' message was controversial and threatening to the established institutions of religious and political power in his society: the message carried with it a fundamental transvaluation of values, an exalting of the humble and a critique of the mighty" (Professor Richard Hays (Moral Vision of the New Testament, p. 164).

Ditto
, therefore, on your point about his threatening 'those in control'.

Those who present a "lovey-dovey" purely religious characterisation of Jesus as someone who got along with everyone and didn't challenge the entrenched inequities and powers-that-be in his society, as well as the imperial - priestly order, completely fail the crucifiability criterion.

As Professor Pounds rightly states:


"Victims of the cross are often depicted as those who participated in seditious or treasonous activities, such as defamation of the emperor, military desertion, or outright rebellion...

Certain crucifixion scenarios can be eliminated as pertaining to Jesus of Nazareth because they defy other probabilities of his historical context. Jesus neither died during the time of a Jewish revolt against Rome nor did he die during the persecution of a religious group, thereby eliminating the possibility that he was captured as a victim of circumstance during those two scenarios.

There is no reasonable evidence that Jesus was engaged in banditry, eliminating that crucifiable offence. In addition, we should note the obvious fact that Jesus was not a slave. This is significant because slaves were more likely than free people to be arbitrarily crucified, as the former were sometimes threatened with crucifixion on the whims of their masters.

We are left with the manageable alternatives that Jesus was either considered a seditionist or a rebel".




2. Pharisees

Likewise, he appears to have been theologically closest to the Pharisees of the major schools (i.e. Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you" (Matthew 23:2))


3. One of many apocalyptic preachers

On your third point, him being part of a fairly long list of itinerant preachers of the time...humour me, while I tell you a short story...

Once upon a time, in first century Roman-occupied Judea, there was a rural Jewish peasant called Jesus. He went around Jerusalem prophesying the imminent destruction of its temple, arousing the rancour of the Judean priestly class, who arrest and gave him over to the Roman governor. The Romans flay him with scourges. When the Governor questions him as to who he was and why he uttered the things he did, Jesus refused to answer him. And then...the Governor makes the magnanimous decision to let him go free. And four years later, Jesus is sadly killed by a stone launched from a catapult while the Romans are busy besieging the city, his prediction of "a voice against Jerusalem and the sanctuary, woe to Jerusalem!" (unfortunately for him) proven true.

End of story.

That's the tragic life-story of Jesus ben Ananias, a plebian farmer who preached four years before the Roman-Jewish war in 66 A.D. and about 30 years after the crucifixion of his infinitely more famous namesake, the Jesus from Nazareth. We know about poor old Jesus son of Ananias from Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 3 of the Roman-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus' The Wars of the Jews......

The tale of Jesus Ben Ananias reminds us that Jesus Christ was both one of many such itinerant Jewish eschatological prophets of the time and for some reason far more threatening, or rather 'agitating' to those in power. Ben Anias got away with it, whereas Jesus of Nazareth made the authorities feel so threatened, that they felt it necessary to execute him under the most severe penalty known to Roman law.


4. Anti-imperialist


Professor Richard Horsley emphasises that Jesus' manner of death demonstrates “[h]is program of resistance to the imperial order.” Conversely, he views certain other Jesuses to be invalid on the basis of their uncrucifiability:


"It is hard to imagine, however, that either a visionary or an itinerant teacher would have been sufficiently threatening to the Roman imperial order that he would have been crucified"


So he did something or said something much worse (from a high priestly and Roman perspective).

As the New Testament scholar Professor Larry Hurtado has noted in this regard:


Lord Jesus Christ


The outcome of the arrest of Jesus of Nazareth means that he must have been taken as a much more serious threat than the poor wretch described by Josephus, and that probably something more than a disturbance in the temple courts during a tense holy-day period was involved.


So more legs for the 'agitator' hypothesis.

Where I think the consensus among modern scholars diverges from your portrait is in terms of an alleged association with 'Zealots' and the claim that St. Paul overturned things to invent Christianity (by which, I assume, your referring in particular to the early pre-dogmatic articulation of Jesus's deification).


(continued...)
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
6. Zealotry -


The purported association between Jesus and "Zealotism" is now considered a fringe idea (chiefly promoted by people like Reza Aslan), not really credible or consistent with the available evidence by the vast majority of scholars.

Martin Hengel's, Was Jesus a Revolutionist? (Fortress Press, 1971) is the classic scholarly rebuke of this concept:


As a summary, there are the “six theses” that Hengel published separately: (1) Any theory of Jesus as revolutionist is based on a highly selective use of the sources; (2) There was a Jewish revolutionary movement in Jesus’ time; (3) There are some similarities between Jesus’ position and that of these revolutionaries but also major points of difference; (4) The fundamental differences between Jesus and these revolutionaries were more numerous and major; (5) The evidence suggest that Jesus was hated by these revolutionaries as much as by the Jerusalem authorities; (6) Both “right-wing” and “left-wing” extremes in the ancient Jewish setting likely viewed Jesus’ teaching and actions as provocative.


i.e. Professor Larry Hurtado:


“Zombie Claims” and Jesus the “Zealot”


As Professor Brian Pounds has noted in a study out last year: "the portrait of Jesus as a violent rebel is not well received among present day scholars and is an example of the over-extension of the criterion of crucifiability" (p.114). The reason it is 'not well-received' is that: "the ubiquitous portrayal of a non-violent Jesus throughout the gospels in combination with more plausible alternative interpretations of sayings supposed to imply violence outweigh the aforementioned one-sided interpretations of these small number of logia" (p.20).

The challenge to any hypothesis seeking to qualify Jesus's non-violence "is the lack of any first century sources that unambiguously portray Jesus in a violent manner. There is no question that the overall portrayal of Jesus in the gospels is essentially non-violent. Nowhere does Jesus take up a weapon in order to kill, as rebels did. On the contrary, he advocates nonviolence, even in the face of imperial oppression...Moreover, they align with the non-violent representation of Jesus in all other material" (The Crucifiable Jesus (2019) p.147).


He goes on:


"As opposed to these attempts to portray Jesus as a violent rebel, in recent decades a new portrait has emerged of Jesus as a non-violent anti-imperialist....

Taking Jesus' crucifixion together with isolated details such as the armed resistance at his arrest and gospel sayings that mention “swords” does not warrant sweeping away the overall consistency of the gospel portraits of Jesus as essentially nonviolent. This is a poignant example of the overapplication of Jesus’ crucifixion as a criterion to the point that other highly probable historical evidence is excluded...

We found that the more recent reconstruction of Jesus as a nonviolent anti-imperialist, represented in the works of Richard A. Horsley, is worthy of deeper consideration...

His emphasis upon Jesus' economic conflicts has an historically plausible basis and has explanatory value for Jesus' crucifixion because it connects to the shared ruling interest of the Judaean aristocracy and the Roman provincial administration. If Jesus implicitly questioned the right of Roman tribute, denied the validity of an annual temple tax, and publicly critiqued the oppression of wealthy ruling élites, these together fit quite naturally with the gospels’ representation of Jesus’ action in the temple as a form of economic protest.
" (The Crucifiable Jesus (2019) p.147)


7. Paul as inventor of Christianity


On Paul, the consensus typified by the likes of Paula Fredriksen, E.P Sanders and the late Larry Hurtado, is that the extent of the novelty of Paul's theology in the early church has been greatly exaggerated in the traditional accounts - not entirely so, since he was (in many respects) an exceptional thinker in the early church and seems to have pursued a more radical doctrine of grace/antinomianism, but in the main he was not innovating.

There wasn't even much of a divide between himself and James, Jesus's brother (referred to twice by Josephus, on both occasions almost universally accepted by scholars as authentically Josephan), the leader of the early church, as has been commonly opposed - or else he wouldn't have urged his followers to pay the voluntary tithe/collection for James:


"From the beginning—before Paul was even involved—the movement had admitted gentiles without requiring them to be circumcised. James, Peter, and John all affirmed that position, back in Jerusalem...And finally, Paul, as we have seen, worked in concert with James about the collection for the Jerusalem community throughout the rest of his missions. No ideological breach yawned between the two men" (Paula Fredriksen (2018), p.188).

We now know with relative certitude, based upon ample textual studies that in Corinthians, Galatians and Philippians he references pre-Pauline hymns and creedal statements. The famous statement: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28), has for now long been regarded by most scholars as a pre-Pauline baptismal formula. In other words, he didn't actually 'come up' with that profound insight - he simply inherited it from the Jerusalem church and was referencing what, by then in the 50s CE, was a common aphorism among the nascent communities of Jesus-believers used in their rituals.

Likewise, in terms of Jesus's divinity - while Jesus himself didn't appear to so regard himself, the belief that he was a pre-existent divine being that had appeared in human form surfaced long before Paul amongst the circles of Jesus's earliest followers not long after his death.

Since Larry Hurtado's pioneering work in the 1980s, the consensus in scholarship is now that high christology, the belief that Jesus was a divine being who descended from the heavenly realm where he had previously existed from eternity to take on human flesh, was the earliest christological theology. Paul does not elucidate this belief in any great depth, he mentions it in passing as something that his audience already takes for granted. Illustrative of this is the pre-Pauline hymn in Philippians 2:6–11, in which most scholars (including Ehrman and Hurtado) see the preexistent and divine Jesus described as first becoming “incarnate” as a man (vv. 6–8).

Since Paul's letters were written in the 50s, and this doctrine is already an assumed, uncontested belief at that point, scholars date the hymn to the 30s CE - not long after Jesus's death, giving it time to disseminate this widely.

As Hurtado has noted: "we have evidence from ancient Jewish sources (especially apocalyptic texts such as 1 Enoch) that the “preexistence” of eschatological figures was a Jewish theological trope. This evidence suggests that Jesus’ preexistence could well have been an almost immediate corollary of the conviction that God had exalted him uniquely to heavenly/divine glory".

The early Christians took this established tradition - which they applied to Jesus in the aftermath of their mystical resurrection experiences of the glorified/ascended Jesus - and did something with the ideas of incarnation and exaltation that no Jewish author had ever done before with Enoch, Melchizedek, Adam or Moses: they accorded Jesus an active role as co-eternal divine agent with God the Father in creation (incarnation) and claimed that God the Father now willed that Jesus be given cultic worship in the same context as that owed to God himself (exaltation), both of which were a “novel mutation”.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
If you look at the historical record , Jesus raised barely a murmur anywhere contrary to what was told about his exploits among the masses. I would say in that light it's strictly a legendary character that is maybe based off a real person, but I doubt Jesus ever existed. The only reason people know about him was likely due to Constantine.

I also entertain the idea that Jesus was a Roman invention designed to appease dissension.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Running off a series of dialogues with those in different faiths, I want to ask a very fundamental question. Who is Jesus to those who don't believe in Him as the Son of God or Messiah as written in parts of the Bible? How does Jesus influence you whether or not he is a main figure in your beliefs? Does your religion pull from some of His doctrines and if so you don't mind sharing what? As Christians consider Him with reverence, please show reverence as well, but I would like to get to know the differing opinions of this inter-faith figure known as Jesus the Christ. Here is an example of a Rabbi finding connections with his faith and Christianity, just to see an example of what I am asking



I'm indifferent to jesus. One big reason is I don't understand how one can speak of a person as real life from a book. "I know jesus" and "Jesus will do this" is a foriegn language insofar that it assumes there is a real actual guy alive (as spoken of) when the only way I know about "what he taught" (not him, himself-he died) is by reading. I can't have a chit-chat with him. Some believers say they are so close to him that he can basically "whisper" in their ear. My father said jesus was watching him in the picture he got and the bibles he has everywhere and he was never a practicing christian until after his life threatening surgeries. I've had brain surgery and never had such a connection.

I can't even say he is a teacher, avatar, manifestation, buddha, or any of that. His disciples wrote "about" jesus.

Also, another reason I'm indifferent is that I don't agree his father actually exists. So, the bible being god-inspired is another foreign concept that makes jesus words less relevant in my life than those who believe in his father.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
As a Christian I find it rather amusing that so many believe that Jesus was an historical figure, because we really have no way of knowing that. Christianity is about the message in a story that needn't have taken place at all, we don't all read The Bible literally.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Some guy from Nazareth who started a cult around himself with limited success. A few generations later, some cultists took the various traditions they had about his life spiced it up a bit and turned it into the NT.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Here is an example of a Rabbi finding connections with his faith and Christianity, just to see an example of what I am asking
I just want to note before people see to far into this that this particular liberal Modern Orthodox Rabbi is well-known controversial figure in Israel. Not just in this, but in many things.

It's also relevant that he founded the Center for Jewish-Christian Understanding and Cooperation in Israel (which he was castigated for by the Rabbinic head of the largest Modern Orthodox yeshivah) with the apparent intent of "serve[ing] to intensify the commitment of our Christian friends to the land and people of Israel".

His opinion is not normative Orthodox opinion.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
Well to go back to the OP, he seems to have impressed some people. Tich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama for example. Was he an enlightened human? Thoughts anybody.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Running off a series of dialogues with those in different faiths, I want to ask a very fundamental question. Who is Jesus to those who don't believe in Him as the Son of God or Messiah as written in parts of the Bible? How does Jesus influence you whether or not he is a main figure in your beliefs? Does your religion pull from some of His doctrines and if so you don't mind sharing what? As Christians consider Him with reverence, please show reverence as well, but I would like to get to know the differing opinions of this inter-faith figure known as Jesus the Christ. Here is an example of a Rabbi finding connections with his faith and Christianity, just to see an example of what I am asking

I'm pretty sure it's this video that Rabbi Riskin refers to in the following video that he says was both uploaded without his permission and was edited to remove the parts in which he spoke out against Jesus and Christianity:
While I agree with @Tumah that Rabbi Riskin is a well-known (here in Israel) controversial Modern Orthodox rabbi with liberal views, even liberal MO rabbis will only go so far.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'm pretty sure it's this video that Rabbi Riskin refers to in the following video that he says was both uploaded without his permission

Here's an article with the retraction:

Efrat rabbi retracts praise for 'Rabbi Jesus' over Orthodox ire

"Defending himself from scathing criticism for a video in which he refers to Jesus as "a model rabbi," a well-respected Anglo rabbi said this week that while his terminology was "inappropriate," the poorly edited video mauled his message. The current incident is the second time this year that Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, the New York-born Orthodox rabbi of Efrat, had to clarify a controversial statement regarding Jewish-Christian relations.

In the video, Riskin says he has been "truly fascinated by the personality of Jesus, whom certainly to myself I have always referred to as Rabbi Jesus" ever since taking a university course about the gospels. "Because I think he is indeed a model rabbi in many counts and he lived the life of a Jewish rabbi in Israel in a very critical time in our history. And I have constantly come back to the study of his personality and his teachings, which are very strongly rooted in Talmudic teachings."

Several Orthodox Jewish Web sites reported about the 5-minute video. Calling it "shocking," the U.S.-based Yeshiva World News wrote that, while "according to a growing number of followers Rabbi Riskin has adopted a controversial position on Christianity - this latest video will prove to be the 'straw that broke the camel's back' according to many, and time will dictate the ramifications of this highly irregular documented statement of this highly respected rabbi's views on 'J[esus].'"
 

Jesuslightoftheworld

The world has nothing to offer us!
Wow! Some very interesting responses.I am a Christian and I just find it so amazing; comical even that since Jesus came onto the scene, just His name has such profound affects on people. In some, joy, love, and peace. In others, anger and hate, and still other disdain, mockery, and even fear and indifference. Never since then has there been anyone who has had that much power over people. There is power in His name. Everyone has a strong opinion. In the end we all will know the Truth of the Truth. I say I'm right, you say you're right. He is who He says He is (and He does say) or He' s not. But I do know one thing: there can be only one Truth and it is absolute.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
You haven't been here long. Just wait and see what happens when someone mentions Muhammad.

It is a shame and rather surprising that nobody has mentioned him, considering that Jesus is very important to Muslims.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Wow! Some very interesting responses.I am a Christian and I just find it so amazing; comical even that since Jesus came onto the scene, just His name has such profound affects on people. In some, joy, love, and peace. In others, anger and hate, and still other disdain, mockery, and even fear and indifference. Never since then has there been anyone who has had that much power over people...
You evidently weren’t paying attention when Muhammad was mentioned then.
 
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