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Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Ecclesiastes 12:7.Ecclesiastes 12:14. Hebrews 9:27. I have the thinking of a jw witness so I say the answer is no.What do you think?
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
There is no spirit that goes beyond death Frank.....our spirit is our breath....nothing more in this context....why do you keep asking the same questions? :(

What is mind and where it is? Where are your predilections, instincts and memories? Do they finish with bodily elements that go to the earth? Who or what undergoes judgement?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Ecclesiastes 12:7.Ecclesiastes 12:14. Hebrews 9:27. I have the thinking of a jw witness so I say the answer is no.What do you think?
Just moments before Jesus died, He said, "Father, into thy hands, I commend my spirit." What on earth do you think His Father would want with a dead spirit? A spirit is a life force. When it resides within a physical body, that body is given life and becomes "a living soul." When the spirit leaves the body at death, the body dies. It's no longer "a living soul." But the spirit that gave it life continues to exist and to await the resurrection -- the time when it will once again enter into the body, making it "a living soul" -- but this time, one that is immortal and will live forever.
 

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Ecclesiastes 12:7.Ecclesiastes 12:14. Hebrews 9:27. I have the thinking of a jw witness so I say the answer is no.What do you think?

There is no spirit that goes beyond death Frank.....our spirit is our breath....nothing more in this context....why do you keep asking the same questions? :(

Deeje.Can you quote and explain my bible passages back to back please?So I can get the feel of jw vs non jw.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What is mind and where it is?
According to what is known, all consciousness is inextricably tied to the brain....something so complex that medical science is still learning about its capacities and capabilities.

Where are your predilections, instincts and memories? Do they finish with bodily elements that go to the earth?

When we are born, the potential for who we are and what we will become is pretty much laid down in our genes. The rest is decided by our life experiences and circumstances. The “soul”, according to my belief, is the living being, with blood in its veins and breath in its lungs.

The “spirit” that animates all life comes from the Creator. When he created life, he did so with the ability to transmit life (and breath) to the next generation. In animals, all instincts are passed along to ensure the continuing existence of all species. Their wisdom is pre-programmed. For the most part, no one has to teach them how to survive.

Humans are very different....and their impact on their environment and each other is not just governed by instinct, but by choices. (Presumably made with their intelligence, but as we can all see....this has not been demonstrated in the ways that count down through history.) The Bible explains why.

Who or what undergoes judgement?

Since I do not believe that any conscious part of us survives death, the “judgment” is of us.....the whole of who we are and our life course and choices, made during our lifetime. At the end of our lives, God knows who we are and more importantly, why we made the choices we did. He doesn’t just read minds...but hearts. (motives and intentions)

The Bible speaks of two judgment periods....one in Noah’s day when God judged the world of that time and found them guilty, thereafter bringing the sentence of death upon them after warning them of his intentions through Noah. No one acted to change their ways.

The second one is about to take place in our time, according to Bible prophesy. Jesus used the days of Noah to illustrate the moral and spiritual conditions that would prevail before that final judgment on this world. (Matthew 24:37-39) He also gave a series of events that would take place before sentence is carried out. (Matthew 24:3-14) No one has seen anything like this present situation. Serious disease epidemics were part of the sign of the end times. “Unprecedented” seems to be a word we are hearing more often when events like this overtake the world and suddenly plunge us into great uncertainty about the future.

What is coming will be a judgment of the living, but what of the dead?

The Bible says that God has promised to restore the lives of ‘both the righteous and the unrighteous’, (John 5:28-29) many of whom never got to hear about the true God or his purpose for this earth and our place in it. He will give them a second chance, to come to know him, but will never interfere with their free willed choices.

The Bible speaks of 1,000 years whereby God will give all humans the opportunity to qualify for citizenship in the earthly realm of his kingdom and to restore his original purpose for this earth.

So according to my Bible based beliefs, we should be concerned about the here and now, because our choices will determine our prospects for the future.

That is how I see it....
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Deeje.Can you quote and explain my bible passages back to back please?So I can get the feel of jw vs non jw.

Frank...I have already given you many detailed explanations of these very verses. You can look them up.

The spirit that leaves the body is not conscious and therefore requires no invented place to “wait” for the resurrection. Souls “sleep” in an unconscious state and when Jesus awakens them, they will have no awareness of the passing of time. This is what the Bible teaches. Jesus calls the dead from their graves....he does not call them from the spirit realm because they are not there.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
According to what is known, all consciousness is inextricably tied to the brain....something so complex that medical science is still learning about its capacities and capabilities.

When we are born, the potential for who we are and what we will become is pretty much laid down in our genes. The rest is decided by our life experiences and circumstances. The “soul”, according to my belief, is the living being, with blood in its veins and breath in its lungs.

The “spirit” that animates all life comes from the Creator. When he created life, he did so with the ability to transmit life (and breath) to the next generation. In animals, all instincts are passed along to ensure the continuing existence of all species. Their wisdom is pre-programmed. For the most part, no one has to teach them how to survive.

Humans are very different....and their impact on their environment and each other is not just governed by instinct, but by choices. (Presumably made with their intelligence, but as we can all see....this has not been demonstrated in the ways that count down through history.) The Bible explains why.

Since I do not believe that any conscious part of us survives death, the “judgment” is of us.....the whole of who we are and our life course and choices, made during our lifetime. At the end of our lives, God knows who we are and more importantly, why we made the choices we did. He doesn’t just read minds...but hearts. (motives and intentions)

The Bible speaks of two judgment periods....one in Noah’s day when God judged the world of that time and found them guilty, thereafter bringing the sentence of death upon them after warning them of his intentions through Noah. No one acted to change their ways.

The second one is about to take place in our time, according to Bible prophesy. Jesus used the days of Noah to illustrate the moral and spiritual conditions that would prevail before that final judgment on this world. (Matthew 24:37-39) He also gave a series of events that would take place before sentence is carried out. (Matthew 24:3-14) No one has seen anything like this present situation. Serious disease epidemics were part of the sign of the end times. “Unprecedented” seems to be a word we are hearing more often when events like this overtake the world and suddenly plunge us into great uncertainty about the future.

What is coming will be a judgment of the living, but what of the dead?

The Bible says that God has promised to restore the lives of ‘both the righteous and the unrighteous’, (John 5:28-29) many of whom never got to hear about the true God or his purpose for this earth and our place in it. He will give them a second chance, to come to know him, but will never interfere with their free willed choices.

The Bible speaks of 1,000 years whereby God will give all humans the opportunity to qualify for citizenship in the earthly realm of his kingdom and to restore his original purpose for this earth.

So according to my Bible based beliefs, we should be concerned about the here and now, because our choices will determine our prospects for the future.

That is how I see it....

Thank you for the detailed note.

If humans are spirit (from God) and brain-genes-blood vessels, then what is judged? What is there to bee judged? Can God judge the spirit? Or can God judge the physical components? And where from our predilections, instincts, and memories?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thank you for the detailed note.

Details are important to me. :)

If humans are spirit (from God) and brain-genes-blood vessels, then what is judged?

I believe that the "spirit" in man is the life force that is sustained by breathing. This life force is in every cell of our bodies, doing what they were designed to do, keeping everything working as it should to keep us alive...albeit imperfectly at present. All life has this "spirit" which is the very basis of their existence. Its a bit like a computer....you can have all the right components in all the right places, but if there is no power supply, the thing is dead and useless.

What is there to bee judged?

Your life course and choices. God judges each person individually according to their capabilities and willingness to do the right thing in following his laws and counsel.
He knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows what motivates our choices and whether they are selfish or altruistic.

Can God judge the spirit?
The spirit is like electricity.....it is empowering, but impersonal so there is nothing to judge. It is the soul (the whole person) who is judged.

Or can God judge the physical components? And where from our predilections, instincts, and memories?

If humans can use technology to retain and store memories of the past; like we can see individuals on the screen who have been dead for decades, alive and well on film. God too can hold the memories of all humans who have lived and died on this planet. His 'technology' is vastly superior to anything humans can produce. In our scripture it says that the Creator knows every star by name....how many stars are there? If he can do that, then the few billion humans who have lived would be no problem to re-create (resurrect) as he has promised.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Details are important to me. :)

I believe that the "spirit" in man is the life force that is sustained by breathing. This life force is in every cell of our bodies, doing what they were designed to do, keeping everything working as it should to keep us alive...albeit imperfectly at present. All life has this "spirit" which is the very basis of their existence. Its a bit like a computer....you can have all the right components in all the right places, but if there is no power supply, the thing is dead and useless.

Your life course and choices. God judges each person individually according to their capabilities and willingness to do the right thing in following his laws and counsel.
He knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows what motivates our choices and whether they are selfish or altruistic.

The spirit is like electricity.....it is empowering, but impersonal so there is nothing to judge. It is the soul (the whole person) who is judged.

If humans can use technology to retain and store memories of the past; like we can see individuals on the screen who have been dead for decades, alive and well on film. God too can hold the memories of all humans who have lived and died on this planet. His 'technology' is vastly superior to anything humans can produce. In our scripture it says that the Creator knows every star by name....how many stars are there? If he can do that, then the few billion humans who have lived would be no problem to re-create (resurrect) as he has promised.

We are failing to communicate. The Hebrew 9.27 says: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So, after death what is subject to judgement? You do not acknowledge a persisting soul (we call it the subtle body or the mind). No?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
We are failing to communicate. The Hebrew 9.27 says: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Though Adam and Eve had the possibility of living forever, that has not been true of their descendants. Adam and Eve had children only after they had sinned. Hence, all their imperfect descendants were born with the prospect of inevitable death. (Romans 5:12; 6:23) This inherited death, therefore, comes to mankind only once. Christ’s sacrifice for mankind will remove the cause of death (sin), and if during God’s judgment day of a thousand years, a resurrected person proves deserving of everlasting destruction, his death will result from his own wickedness, not from inheriting Adam's sin. (Revelation 20:13-15)
Conversely, those who previously had died from inherited sin, but who after resurrection prove faithful, will receive the favorable judgment of everlasting life. (Revelation 21:3-6)

So, after death what is subject to judgement? You do not acknowledge a persisting soul (we call it the subtle body or the mind). No?

For those who keep God's laws and commandments during their lifetime, a resurrection to life is promised because they were judged worthy of everlasting life by their actions. For those who died without knowing God or his laws, a resurrection for them will be one of judgment. They will have 1,000 years to prove themselves worthy.....if not, they will forfeit the gift of life.
That is my understanding.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Though Adam and Eve had the possibility of living forever, that has not been true of their descendants. Adam and Eve had children only after they had sinned. Hence, all their imperfect descendants were born with the prospect of inevitable death. (Romans 5:12; 6:23) This inherited death, therefore, comes to mankind only once. Christ’s sacrifice for mankind will remove the cause of death (sin), and if during God’s judgment day of a thousand years, a resurrected person proves deserving of everlasting destruction, his death will result from his own wickedness, not from inheriting Adam's sin. (Revelation 20:13-15)
Conversely, those who previously had died from inherited sin, but who after resurrection prove faithful, will receive the favorable judgment of everlasting life. (Revelation 21:3-6)

For those who keep God's laws and commandments during their lifetime, a resurrection to life is promised because they were judged worthy of everlasting life by their actions. For those who died without knowing God or his laws, a resurrection for them will be one of judgment. They will have 1,000 years to prove themselves worthy.....if not, they will forfeit the gift of life.
That is my understanding.

1000 years to prove ‘themselves’. What is meant by ‘ themselves’ after the bodily-earthly demise? Who will be tested for 1000 years?
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
We are failing to communicate. The Hebrew 9.27 says: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So, after death what is subject to judgement? You do not acknowledge a persisting soul (we call it the subtle body or the mind). No?

The answer to your question is a very easy one. So what is subject to judgement? You are. Or we are. Resurrection was also preached by the apostles too, esp in Acts. Everyone knew about it. Scripture also tells us that when Christ returns, the first thing he is going to do is raise the dead. Then, it's judgement.

No where in scripture does it tell us that when you die, a part of your body goes somewhere else. When your dead, your dead until resurrection. Period!! We have to remember that we ARE a soul, not "given one". "Spirit" can mean a few different things too, like life or the way I'm feeling today, etc, etc. Stephen gave up his spirit which only means he gave up his life.

The problem with the world is there are afraid of death. They dont want to be told that when your dead, your dead and cease to exist. There is nothing in death, everything is gone, your memories, thoughts, life, everything. So what hope to we have then? Scripture tells us about the resurrection. When Christ returns, only then... he brings with him and gives us our rewards. Eternal life. It's not heaven going we are judged, we are judged at the Lord's return.

The afterlife is from pagan beliefs, like from Egypt and Babylon. It is not from God. Hope this helps.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The answer to your question is a very easy one. So what is subject to judgement? You are. Or we are.

But we are just clay and spirit, which is from God. What is under judgement?

The afterlife is from pagan beliefs, like from Egypt and Babylon. It is not from God. Hope this helps.

I see. God seems very partial. :)
...
Thank you @Deeje and @moorea944 for your efforts. It is fascinating but I am a slow taker. Sorry about that. I feel that my basic questions are unanswered. Rather we get some racial comment that other religions are not from God.

I wish for the sake of ultimate clarity that anyone of you could chronicle the events and options from before birth to death of a person XYZ -- through the stone-hood (?), through the judgement, and ultimate possible resurrection. I also wish that you will precisely explain as to what is the role of Spirit and the source of a born man's ego and intelligence while alive and what happens to the ego-intelligence after the death of that person. And who is judged for a mere lifetime of sins and omissions? any reader, including this one, will be benefited if the explanations are bulleted.

Thanks in advance.
 
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cataway

Well-Known Member
The answer to your question is a very easy one. So what is subject to judgement? You are. Or we are. Resurrection was also preached by the apostles too, esp in Acts. Everyone knew about it. Scripture also tells us that when Christ returns, the first thing he is going to do is raise the dead. Then, it's judgement.

No where in scripture does it tell us that when you die, a part of your body goes somewhere else. When your dead, your dead until resurrection. Period!! We have to remember that we ARE a soul, not "given one". "Spirit" can mean a few different things too, like life or the way I'm feeling today, etc, etc. Stephen gave up his spirit which only means he gave up his life.

The problem with the world is there are afraid of death. They dont want to be told that when your dead, your dead and cease to exist. There is nothing in death, everything is gone, your memories, thoughts, life, everything. So what hope to we have then? Scripture tells us about the resurrection. When Christ returns, only then... he brings with him and gives us our rewards. Eternal life. It's not heaven going we are judged, we are judged at the Lord's return.

The afterlife is from pagan beliefs, like from Egypt and Babylon. It is not from God. Hope this helps.
to raise some one from death and then give then a judgment of death is not what really happens .
Romans 6:
6 For we know that our old personality was nailed to the stake along with him in order for our sinful body to be made powerless, so that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.
they paid the price for sin by dying. with the Resurrection people would then be without sin. if that person can then live with out sin there would be no reason for them to receive a judgment of death.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
But we are just clay and spirit, which is from God. What is under judgement?



I see. God seems very partial. :)
...
Thank you @Deeje and @moorea944 for your efforts. It is fascinating but I am a slow taker. Sorry about that. I feel that my basic questions are unanswered. Rather we get some racial comment that other religions are not from God.

I wish for the sake of ultimate clarity that anyone of you could chronicle the events and options from before birth to death of a person XYZ -- through the stone-hood (?), through the judgement, and ultimate possible resurrection. I also wish that you will precisely explain as to what is the role of Spirit and the source of a born man's ego and intelligence while alive and what happens to the ego-intelligence after the death of that person. And who is judged for a mere lifetime of sins and omissions? any reader, including this one, will be benefited if the explanations are bulleted.

Thanks in advance.

Im not sure what you mean by clay and spirit... We are made from the earth and have God's spirit in us, is that what you mean?
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
to raise some one from death and then give then a judgment of death is not what really happens .
Romans 6:
6 For we know that our old personality was nailed to the stake along with him in order for our sinful body to be made powerless, so that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. 7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.
they paid the price for sin by dying. with the Resurrection people would then be without sin. if that person can then live with out sin there would be no reason for them to receive a judgment of death.


That is what exactly happens!!

First of all your version of the bible is much different than mine. Really not sure what your reading.
Romans 6 is talking about baptism and how our sins are forgiven when we are baptised. This is a wonderful chapter on that topic. It also seems that your heading towards subsitution. Which is wrong to begin with anyhow.

When we are baptised, our sins are forgiven. It is symbollic of Christ's death and resurrection. That's one of the reasons why we get baptised. Though we get baptised, we still sin in life. We still need to pray to God for forgiveness of sins everyday. Judgement is for what? Christ is going to judge us on what we've done in life. So... who's going to be raised from the dead or to be brought to judgement before our Lord? Scripture tells us that the baptised people (which also means that they are now "in Christ" at baptism and... those who have a certain knowledge of understanding of our Heavenly Father.

But to answer your question about resurrection, that is all through scripture. Even David knew about resurrection. We even read about that in 2 Sam7. Paul preached that all through Acts. Paul even answered questions about resurrection for the Jews and Gentiles who didnt quit understand it.
 
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