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My favourite scientific contradiction in the Quran

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

When I posted the list of scientific errors in the Quran available at Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam Limo suggested to me that these lists are not new, and that I should pick one from the list for Muslims to discuss.

My response was essentially that although a point by point refutation would be in order since even one scientific error would be enough to disprove that the Quran is authored by an omniscient God, nontheless I do have a favourite scientific contradiction so I will put it here for discussion.

Of relevance here will be an extract from the intro to Scientific errors in the Quran followed by my favourite contradiction.

Extract: ‘Some will contest these numerous errors in the Qur'an by appealing to metaphor, alternative meanings, or phenomenological interpretations of the text.

Even supposing alternative explanations were possible in every case, the problem would remain that the Qur’an contains no obvious attempts to differentiate its understanding of the natural world and historical events from the common folklore and unscientific misconceptions of the people living in 7th century Arabia.

An all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect communicator would have been able to foresee how such misleading statements would be understood by future generations and the doubts and confusions they would cause.

Such overwhelming weakness in the Qur'an when we should expect perfection is already reason enough to reject any claims to its divine authorship.’

Now to my favourite contradiction open to all Muslims:

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds.
Quran 52:44
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
Quran 34:9
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
Quran 34:9

Please discuss
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

When I posted the list of scientific errors in the Quran available at Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam Limo suggested to me that these lists are not new, and that I should pick one from the list for Muslims to discuss.

My response was essentially that although a point by point refutation would be in order since even one scientific error would be enough to disprove that the Quran is authored by an omniscient God, nontheless I do have a favourite scientific contradiction so I will put it here for discussion.

Of relevance here will be an extract from the intro to Scientific errors in the Quran followed by my favourite contradiction.

Extract: ‘Some will contest these numerous errors in the Qur'an by appealing to metaphor, alternative meanings, or phenomenological interpretations of the text.

Even supposing alternative explanations were possible in every case, the problem would remain that the Qur’an contains no obvious attempts to differentiate its understanding of the natural world and historical events from the common folklore and unscientific misconceptions of the people living in 7th century Arabia.

An all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect communicator would have been able to foresee how such misleading statements would be understood by future generations and the doubts and confusions they would cause.

Such overwhelming weakness in the Qur'an when we should expect perfection is already reason enough to reject any claims to its divine authorship.’

Now to my favourite contradiction open to all Muslims:

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds.
Quran 52:44
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
Quran 34:9
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
Quran 34:9

Please discuss

Advocatus diaboli: perhaps what is being referred to here are meteorite fragments? We know that several ancient cultures made jewelry, for example, from iron meteorites.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Science[edit]
Further information: Baháʼí Faith and science
There is some tension over the Baháʼí principle that religion and science should be in harmony. There are statements from the religion's founders of a scientific nature that could be interpreted as contrary to standard science. Prominent among them are references by ʻAbdu'l-Bahá that humans evolved over a long period, but were never animals. Many Baháʼí authors have commented[15][excessive citations] that the intention of the comments were in line with a modern understanding of evolution and that the apparent conflict is an unfortunate semantic mistake. The Baháʼí commentator Salman Oskooi acknowledged that the comments by ʻAbdu'l-Bahá are not in line with current scientific understanding, but that ʻAbdu'l-Bahá should not be regarded as infallible in scientific matters.[16]

Other scientifically controversial ideas from Baháʼu'lláh include that the universe is without beginning or end, that every planet has "creatures", and that copper can turn into gold
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Advocatus diaboli: perhaps what is being referred to here are meteorite fragments? We know that several ancient cultures made jewelry, for example, from iron meteorites.
Its an interesting thought, and here is why we know it does not refer to meteorites.
"And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds."
Quran 52:44
According to my understanding, "they" refers to non-believers in Islam. Sure non-believers would say "A shooting star", but what non-believer thinks a meteorite looks like "A heap of clouds"? So far as I know not one of them does. This reference to "clouds" also locates the region of the heaven being referred to as it is the region populated by clouds.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Science[edit]
Further information: Baháʼí Faith and science
There is some tension over the Baháʼí principle that religion and science should be in harmony. There are statements from the religion's founders of a scientific nature that could be interpreted as contrary to standard science. Prominent among them are references by ʻAbdu'l-Bahá that humans evolved over a long period, but were never animals. Many Baháʼí authors have commented[15][excessive citations] that the intention of the comments were in line with a modern understanding of evolution and that the apparent conflict is an unfortunate semantic mistake. The Baháʼí commentator Salman Oskooi acknowledged that the comments by ʻAbdu'l-Bahá are not in line with current scientific understanding, but that ʻAbdu'l-Bahá should not be regarded as infallible in scientific matters.[16]

Other scientifically controversial ideas from Baháʼu'lláh include that the universe is without beginning or end, that every planet has "creatures", and that copper can turn into gold
The Baha'i faith has loads of scientific contradictions, although I would hope that you are not suggesting that showing the Baha'i faith has scientific contradictions means that the Quran does not, as that would be absurd.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

When I posted the list of scientific errors in the Quran available at Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam Limo suggested to me that these lists are not new, and that I should pick one from the list for Muslims to discuss.

My response was essentially that although a point by point refutation would be in order since even one scientific error would be enough to disprove that the Quran is authored by an omniscient God, nontheless I do have a favourite scientific contradiction so I will put it here for discussion.

Of relevance here will be an extract from the intro to Scientific errors in the Quran followed by my favourite contradiction.

Extract: ‘Some will contest these numerous errors in the Qur'an by appealing to metaphor, alternative meanings, or phenomenological interpretations of the text.

Even supposing alternative explanations were possible in every case, the problem would remain that the Qur’an contains no obvious attempts to differentiate its understanding of the natural world and historical events from the common folklore and unscientific misconceptions of the people living in 7th century Arabia.

An all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect communicator would have been able to foresee how such misleading statements would be understood by future generations and the doubts and confusions they would cause.

Such overwhelming weakness in the Qur'an when we should expect perfection is already reason enough to reject any claims to its divine authorship.’

Now to my favourite contradiction open to all Muslims:

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds.
Quran 52:44
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
Quran 34:9
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
Quran 34:9

Please discuss

I think literalist supporters and literalist opposers both err.

For example, in Hindu scripture it is written that moon is further away than sun which is real close. It is foolish isn’t it?

But sun is the self resplendent atman (self-soul-spirit) while the moon that shines by borrowed light is the mind. Have you seen iconography of Shiva sitting with a crescent moon near His head? The iconography signifies that the mind (symbolised by moon) waxes and wanes because of the immutable consciousness, the Shiva, the auspicious. It points to an unborn consciousness being the source of our consciousness.

I can cite many such examples that simply cannot be understood using today’s vocabulary.

...
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Its an interesting thought, and here is why we know it does not refer to meteorites.
"And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds."
Quran 52:44
According to my understanding, "they" refers to non-believers in Islam. Sure non-believers would say "A shooting star", but what non-believer thinks a meteorite looks like "A heap of clouds"? So far as I know not one of them does. This reference to "clouds" also locates the region of the heaven being referred to as it is the region populated by clouds.


Yeah, it a bit of a stretch perhaps :) although since people then did not know what clouds were, I would think that anything falling from the sky could be considered to be "from the clouds".
 

That one is a bit of a stretch to call an error as it's hardly supposed to be literal.

Dhul Qarnayan is Alexander the Great, and that passage is based on the Syriac Alexander Legend/Neshana which also has elements of even older stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Going to the ends of the Earth is just metaphorical because the Neshana was from the Roman world, and they certainly didn't believe the earth was flat in the 7th C.

If you want to read an article about it:

"The prophecy of Ḏū-l-Qarnayn (Q 18:83-102) and the Origins of the Qurʾānic Corpus". Miscellanea arabica 2013–2014: 273-90.
 

Limo

Active Member
Background: In another thread @Limo has proposed that the Quran never contradicts science.

When I posted the list of scientific errors in the Quran available at Scientific Errors in the Qur'an - WikiIslam Limo suggested to me that these lists are not new, and that I should pick one from the list for Muslims to discuss.

My response was essentially that although a point by point refutation would be in order since even one scientific error would be enough to disprove that the Quran is authored by an omniscient God, nontheless I do have a favourite scientific contradiction so I will put it here for discussion.

What about the opposite, If one preferred alleged scientific error is refuted, will this proof that the Quran is authored by an omniscient God ?

Of relevance here will be an extract from the intro to Scientific errors in the Quran followed by my favourite contradiction.

Extract: ‘Some will contest these numerous errors in the Qur'an by appealing to metaphor, alternative meanings, or phenomenological interpretations of the text.

Even supposing alternative explanations were possible in every case, the problem would remain that the Qur’an contains no obvious attempts to differentiate its understanding of the natural world and historical events from the common folklore and unscientific misconceptions of the people living in 7th century Arabia.

An all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect communicator would have been able to foresee how such misleading statements would be understood by future generations and the doubts and confusions they would cause.

Such overwhelming weakness in the Qur'an when we should expect perfection is already reason enough to reject any claims to its divine authorship.’
This is just introduction to answer your introduction, I hope we don't go in side discussion and concentrate on the main issue.

Initially, let us set some thoughts here regarding your assumptions and allegations:
  • Metaphors: the vast majority of Moslems scholars believe that Quran doesn't have metaphors
  • Alternative meanings: We don't have this term in Quran explanation, If and only if we're taking about Quran language Arabic but other language translations sometimes have errors or not selecting the appropriate word
  • phenomenological interpretations of the text: This is somehow unclear but what I can say is that sometimes the word has several meanings in Arabic So scholars sometimes explain the meaning different from the common understanding of the word meaning to non scholars
  • common folklore and unscientific misconceptions : This can't be said by any mean about Quran. Allah in Quran exposes the naked facts. Prophet was keen to not to compliant with the system. Quran refuted most of common Christinity belief, most of Jews expectations, all pagan belief, most of time Allah says "myths of grandfathers, precedents, presbyters"

Now to my favourite contradiction open to all Muslims:

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds.
Quran 52:44
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
Quran 34:9
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
Quran 34:9
Please discuss

So let us define the issue precisely, I'm waiting for your acceptance/modification before I answer:
  • As the atmosphere is made of gas, there is nothing to fall on earth looks like cloud
    • Neither cloud because cloud is already excluded in Quran
    • Nor meteorite fragments as per your answer in #4
Regards
 

izzy88

Active Member
But sun is the self resplendent atman (self-soul-spirit) while the moon that shines by borrowed light is the mind. Have you seen iconography of Shiva sitting with a crescent moon near His head? The iconography signifies that the mind (symbolised by moon) waxes and wanes because of the immutable consciousness, the Shiva, the auspicious. It points to an unborn consciousness being the source of our consciousness.

I love this symbolism, it really seems to help make sense of why I can feel like very different people from moment to moment and yet at the same time I'm still always "me". Are there some good resources you'd recommend for learning more about this sort of symbolic language in Hinduism?
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
IMHO - @Link posted a thread about "Mysterious letters in the Qu'ran." Ok - so if an all-knowing creator dictated or authored it through an angel - it sure is incomprehensible to many. Which defeats its entire purpose. Also the Qu'ran makes copious references to the other Abrahamic faiths that Muhammad knew about (with some errors like in the case of Miriam of Aaron and Jesus) and no reference to the Vedas - at least poor Baha'u'llah gave a nod to Lord Krishna equating him with himself but that is another story.

There are any number of hadiths - sahih - or otherwise purporting to further explain or support what is in the Qu'ran - why the need for these?

So no - not for a second do I buy that "heavenly revealed" claim. My own text is more straightforward and the original copy (still in existence) dual signed by the person dictating and the one writing it with corrections in the margin. But I do not make that claim about the SGGS - it is a philosophy - like most dharmic faiths - a suggestion on how to live one's own life - but at the end - like Sri Krishna said to Arjun "The decision of what to do - ultimately lies with you"

Gita 18:63

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā
vimṛiśhyaitad aśheṣheṇa yathechchhasi tathā kuru

Thus, I have explained to you this knowledge that is more secret than all secrets. Ponder over it deeply, and then do as you wish.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
I love this symbolism, it really seems to help make sense of why I can feel like very different people from moment to moment and yet at the same time I'm still always "me". Are there some good resources you'd recommend for learning more about this sort of symbolic language in Hinduism?

Thank you for your interest. To start you can read: Hindu iconography - Wikipedia

Wikipedia article, however, may not bring about the joy that one gets on personal revelation. There are a few more iconographies that have given me immense insight. But probably this is not the place\ to discuss that.
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think literalist supporters and literalist opposers both err...
In that you would be 50percent wrong. If it weren’t for those opposed to literalism, literalism would become the majority as it has become in Islam.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What about the opposite, If one preferred alleged scientific error is refuted, will this proof that the Quran is authored by an omniscient God?...
Nope, as explained above all errors would have to be satisfactorily refuted.

So let us define the issue precisely, I'm waiting for your acceptance/modification before I answer:
  • As the atmosphere is made of gas, there is nothing to fall on earth looks like cloud
    • Neither cloud because cloud is already excluded in Quran
    • Nor meteorite fragments as per your answer in #4
Regards
Don’t forget, 34:9 compares this to a calamity the likes of being swallowed up by the earth, so we are obviously not talking about a relatively peaceful occurrence such as fog settling down.
 

Limo

Active Member
Nope, as explained above all errors would have to be satisfactorily refuted.


Don’t forget, 34:9 compares this to a calamity the likes of being swallowed up by the earth, so we are obviously not talking about a relatively peaceful occurrence such as fog settling down.
But do you agree about the definition of the issue?
Change it as you wish
 

Limo

Active Member
Nope, as explained above all errors would have to be satisfactorily refuted.
Agree, that one case is not enough to change the mind of someone but it should make a difference.

Unfortunately logic is not quantified.
Satisfactory is not guaranteed.
I can logically refute the issue but it doesn't imply your acceptance and satisfaction.
I believe it's not logic only, it's about thoughts and belief.

But I should try.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Quran for just foolish nonsense." 25:30

Nay! he has come with the very truth, and he confirms the message of the messengers before him. 37:37


"Now cause a piece of the sky to fall on us, if thou art truthful!" 26:187



It is Allah Who sends the Winds, and they raise the Clouds: then does He spread them in the sky as He wills, and break them into fragments, until thou seest rain-drops issue from the midst thereof: then when He has made them reach such of his servants as He wills behold, they do rejoice!- 30:48

But they said: "Our Lord! Place longer distances between our journey-stages": but they wronged themselves (therein). At length We made them as a tale that is told, and We dispersed them all in scattered fragments. Verily in this are Signs for every soul that is patiently constant and grateful.







Do they not look at the sky above them?- How We have made it and adorned it, and there are no flaws in it? 50:6

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23

The Day that the sky will be like molten brass. 70:8




It is He who sends down rain from the sky: from it ye drink, and out of it grows the vegetation on which ye feed your cattle. 16:10

Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle; nay, they are worse astray in path. 25:44

Eat for yourselves and pasture your cattle: verily in this are signs for men endued with understanding. 20:54



And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17



Then watch thou for the Day that the sky will bring forth a kind of smoke (or mist) plainly visible, 44:10



Say. "The truth is from your Lord" Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject it: For the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose smoke and flames, like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable couch to recline on! 18:29

Many are the jinns and men we have made for hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle, nay more misguided: for they are heedless of warning. 7:179





And thou shalt make fifty taches of brass, and put the taches into the loops, and couple the tent together, that it may be one. Exodus 26:11

And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. Genesis 4:20



He sends down water from the skies, and the channels flow, each according to its measure: But the torrent bears away to foam that mounts up to the surface. Even so, from that ore which they heat in the fire, to make ornaments or utensils therewith, there is a scum likewise. Thus doth Allah by parables show forth Truth and Vanity. For the scum disappears like forth cast out; while that which is for the good of mankind remains on the earth. Thus doth Allah set forth parables. 13:17









The philosphers stone can turn lead into gold:

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. Zechariah 7:12

Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and ye shall eat your flesh as it were fire ye heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3

The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away. Jeremiah 6:29

And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. Zechariah 5:8


As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Ezekiel 22:20

But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD. Joshua 6:19

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23
Wow, a rambling post filled with irrelevancy, more contradiction to science, and threats of hellfire... was I supposed to be impressed by that?
 
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