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Non-Theist

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'm interested in why you wouldn't think of yourself as a theist (albeit of a specific flavour).
Not saying you're wrong, just interested.

Okay, I used to be an atheist. So please don't play atheists only lack belief or disbelieve in gods. Some atheists are more than that. Their atheism is a part of an overall world view. You can't just focus on them being atheists, because it interconnects to the rest of their reasoning, logic, evidence and values. So now I will give them as sort of descriptive label and connect the dots to how I became religious. They are rationalist in the end, not empiricists. They may use the word evidence, but if you dig deeper, than is not what it is at play. It is that the world must make sense and that it matters to them subjectively, that the world must make sense.
So how do you spot that? Well, remember they demand objective empirical evidence and when you ask them this: How do you explain that you do that; demand evidence? They don't answer with evidence, they answer that it is useful to them subjectively to believe as they do and that it makes subjectively sense to them.

So remember this: You have to have evidence for what you believe and if you don't have evidence, then it is a belief, which requires faith. I gave that a lot of thought and really tried to replicate, what they demanded. All my beliefs should be with evidence, but I figured out that I couldn't. I hold beliefs about the world including other humans, not a opinion like that I like to eat rice, but beliefs about the world independent of me without evidence.
So I am honest, I am religious, because I hold beliefs about the world, including what the world is as such, for which I don't have evidence.

Now, how that relates to God? That is simple, I am a Cartesian skeptic and strong skeptic as such and I believe that the world is fair(no Matrix and what not) and that the world is knowable and natural. I.e. that the monitor in front of me, is a monitor in itself. But the world is not fair, since that is not a natural claim, so it is supernatural as "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe". That the world is fair, is an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. So in effect I believe in a natural, yet supernatural God. I am honest, I tried to be a rationalist like them, but I couldn't, because they, as I see it, "cheated". So I came clean. I am functional still an atheist and skeptic and I don't believe in souls, reincarnation, Heaven, Hell, woo-woo beliefs, conspiracy theories and what not.

There is more, so just ask. :)

Regards
Mikkel
 

night912

Well-Known Member
No, a theist believe in creator god, an intervening god and a god, which reveals itself to humans. A deist believes only a creator god and not the rest as a theist.
Nope, you're wrong. A deist is a type of theist. Theism/theist is the umbrella of the entire thing, everything else falls under it. It's the most basic form of belief that a god exist. All deists are theists, but not all theists are deists.

l
So a non-theist can still believe in a creator god, not just a theistic god

Regards
Mikkel
Hahaha. I laughed at the illogical reasoning of this the moment I read.

Mikkel: "I'm a non-theist. I believe in a creator god, just not a god that created creation."

Atheist: "That's the most illogical thing I've heard, especially coming from someone who claims that true knowledge is logic."

Liberal Christian theist: "That's even worst than those crazy atheists and fundamentalist Christian theists."

Fundamentalist Christian theist: "And people say that we are the crazy ones?" :facepalm:
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Nope, you're wrong. A deist is a type of theist. Theism/theist is the umbrella of the entire thing, everything else falls under it. It's the most basic form of belief that a god exist. All deists are theists, but not all theists are deists.


Hahaha. I laughed at the illogical reasoning of this the moment I read.

Mikkel: "I'm a non-theist. I believe in a creator god, just not a god that created creation."

Atheist: "That's the most illogical thing I've heard, especially coming from someone who claims that true knowledge is logic."

Liberal Christian theist: "That's even worst than those crazy atheists and fundamentalist Christian theists."

Fundamentalist Christian theist: "And people say that we are the crazy ones?" :facepalm:

I am glad, you found it funny.
Deism | Definition, History, Beliefs, Significance, & Facts

Regards
Mikkel
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
So, non-theist is an interesting self description.

However, what is the difference between a non-theist and an atheist?

Definition of nontheist
: a person who does not believe that there is a god or gods : a person who is not a believer in theism

Definition of atheist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism
Well, I'm a lawyer (That's a lie)...

I believe the difference is that a nontheist doesn't actively try to convince people of nontheism, whereas an atheist might.

Or it could be what sun rise said, semantic hair splitting.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So, non-theist is an interesting self description.

However, what is the difference between a non-theist and an atheist?

Definition of nontheist
: a person who does not believe that there is a god or gods : a person who is not a believer in theism

Definition of atheist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

It's so much better to neither believe nor not believe anything, and just rely on your direct experience. :D

Everyone else is just guessing and hoping -- I'm not interested in that. :D
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I believe the difference is that a non-theist doesn't actively try to convince people of non-theism, whereas an atheist might.
I do not think your belief is correct. How do you define a Non-theist (not believing in existence of any God)? There is no difference between a non-theist and an atheist. And an atheist has no compulsion to convince anyone of anything as the Abrahamic theists are obligated/mandated by their religions.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
However, what is the difference between a non-theist and an atheist?
Everything and nothing. The fundamental problem here is that there can be a huge difference between the word atheist and the word atheist! All of the terms in this area (atheist, theist, religious, faith, belief, god etc.) are used by all sorts of different people in all sorts of different ways. They all carry lots of baggage, stereotypes and implications and are all too often used as weapons rather than tools.

I personally try to avoid using any of them generically and explain any concepts I want to discuss in detail and their specific context. Unfortunately, a lot of people resist that because it tends to spike their weaponized words.

I suspect people use non-theist rather than atheist to try to avoid that baggage (because atheist specifically carries lots unfortunately) but it's very much an attempt to evade the problem rather than address it.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Yes I found it funny. What I also found funny is after pointing out your illogical reasoning, you went and find an artical about how the Abrahamic god is being approach in theology and philosophy. It's odd how someone claims to be a skeptic dismissed the three named Abrahamic religion was said right in the opening of the article.

deism:
belief in a single god who does not act to influence events, and whose existence has no connection with religions, religious buildings, or religious books, etc.

theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods

Since you like Philosophy 101 go to my link. You might come to realize why your statement was funny.
Deism
 

night912

Well-Known Member
I do not think your belief is correct. How do you define a Non-theist (not believing in existence of any God)? There is no difference between a non-theist and an atheist. And an atheist has no compulsion to convince anyone of anything as the Abrahamic theists are obligated/mandated by their religions.
Correct. And the notion of thinking that there's a difference is just silly. It can be easily be seen if an example is used for the other side.

What's the difference between a theist and a non-atheist?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes I found it funny. What I also found funny is after pointing out your illogical reasoning, you went and find an artical about how the Abrahamic god is being approach in theology and philosophy. It's odd how someone claims to be a skeptic dismissed the three named Abrahamic religion was said right in the opening of the article.

deism:
belief in a single god who does not act to influence events, and whose existence has no connection with religions, religious buildings, or religious books, etc.

theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods

Since you like Philosophy 101 go to my link. You might come to realize why your statement was funny.
Deism

Yeah, it is one of those words, deism, which have different meanings. Now here is the starting part of theism:

Theism, the view that all limited or finite things are dependent in some way on one supreme or ultimate reality of which one may also speak in personal terms. In Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, this ultimate reality is often called God. This article explores approaches to theism in Western theology and philosophy. Theism’s view of God can be clarified by contrasting it with those of deism, pantheism, and mysticism.
Theism | religion

From your link:
Deism is the belief that God exists, but not in quite the same way as in traditional Christianity. Deists believe that God’s existence can be seen in nature, using the God-given ability of reason– and should not depend on faith. Deists also do not believe in obedience to a church or a book, or supernatural manifestations. Deists believe in science and natural history and see God as a great cosmic watchmaker, who designed the universe, wound it up, and then let it run.

Deism became recognized during the Enlightenment, and was meant as a rational reform of traditional religious doctrines. According to Deism, the best way to honor God is to appreciate nature and learn about it using science.

So what is your point?
That I used a different understanding of deism and theism than you and that there are other ways to understand it? I accept that.
Or is it something else?

Regards
Mikkel
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
No, a theist believe in creator god, an intervening god and a god, which reveals itself to humans. A deist believes only a creator god and not the rest as a theist.
Consulting my dictionary — sometimes I feel I'm the only one here who has one…

theism. …belief in the existence of God or gods (opp. atheism); spec. belief in one God who created and intervenes in the universe. Cf. deism.

So it seems that there are two competing definitions in use. The trouble with the second one is that it leaves you with no word for a person who isn't an atheist, while the first has a place for everyone:
  • theist
    • monotheist
      • deist
    • polytheist
  • non-theist
    • atheist
    • agnostic
There — I've even found a use for "non-theist". Of course, I still lack a word for a monotheist who's not a deist, but deists are not common and the question of how non-interventionist your god has to be before people can call you a deist has yet to be settled.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Consulting my dictionary — sometimes I feel I'm the only one here who has one…

theism. …belief in the existence of God or gods (opp. atheism); spec. belief in one God who created and intervenes in the universe. Cf. deism.

So it seems that there are two competing definitions in use. The trouble with the second one is that it leaves you with no word for a person who isn't an atheist, while the first has a place for everyone:
  • theist
    • monotheist
      • deist
    • polytheist
  • non-theist
    • atheist
    • agnostic
There — I've even found a use for "non-theist". Of course, I still lack a word for a monotheist who's not a deist, but deists are not common and the question of how non-interventionist your god has to be before people can call you a deist has yet to be settled.

Yeah, deism is used differently. It is not a fixed term. I admit that. But sometimes there are different words for a reason, namely there is a difference.

Well as for no-theists. I have seem it claimed that you can be an agnostic and believe in God. So we are in effect playing the game of the proper and correct definition of a word.

Regards
Mikkel
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I never said anything about compulsion, choice however is a different story.
Yeah, choice. Some atheist choose not react to creationist and theistic views, some get irritated by illogical quotes from theist books.
.. to avoid that baggage (because atheist specifically carries lots unfortunately) but it's very much an attempt to evade the problem rather than address it.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Because some atheist believe in existence of soul, or ghosts. I do not understand how they reconcile their views.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
So what is your point?
That I used a different understanding of deism and theism than you and that there are other ways to understand it? I accept that.
Or is it something else?
Something else.

Of course, a lot of words have more than one meaning, what defines which definition is how it is used. But by definition, a theist at minimum, can believe in just a creator god just like ypurs. So since it's possible for a theist to believe a god just like yours.....

So your statement here is illogical because it contradicts itself. Here, the bare minimum definition of theist (my definition, by the way) must me be used because it strictly refer to all theists. Being a theist and not a theist at the same time is a contradiction, hence illogical.

So now that you have this knowledge, especially in regards to logic, you can see why I laughed at your funny statement.

Once again, you are said....
So a non-theist can still believe in a creator god, not just a theistic god.
And translating that it reads, "a non-theist can still believe in a creator god, not just a creator god."

Or it can be read as this, "a non-theist can still believe in a theistic god, just not a creator god." :D
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
So, non-theist is an interesting self description.

However, what is the difference between a non-theist and an atheist?

Definition of nontheist
: a person who does not believe that there is a god or gods : a person who is not a believer in theism

Definition of atheist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism
There's no difference. "Non-theist" is a term that was invented to avoid perceived negative baggage associated with the word "atheist" in some circles.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
So to split hairs, a non-theist as for the second version - a person who is not a believer in theism - could be a deist. There is a difference and a deist is not an atheist.

Regards
Mikkel
Deism is a category of theism. Deists are not atheists nor non-theists.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
So, non-theist is an interesting self description.

However, what is the difference between a non-theist and an atheist?

Definition of nontheist
: a person who does not believe that there is a god or gods : a person who is not a believer in theism

Definition of atheist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism
It's for me a kind of feeling.
Atheist is more "active disbelieving in Gods"
Non-Theist is just "not a theist"
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
So, non-theist is an interesting self description.

However, what is the difference between a non-theist and an atheist?

Definition of nontheist
: a person who does not believe that there is a god or gods : a person who is not a believer in theism

Definition of atheist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism
Theism is belief in god. Being against theism is different than being against god.*

*or gods
 
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