Do we ask our self the wrong questions about God?

[Erebus]

I am very aware that I do not hold the full answer to what God truly is. But one thing I been thinking of is that it looks like many people see God in a Human way, with all the faults and error we humans hold. and many use their own understanding of how they think God should be, instead of trying to find what God actually is. We put our own personal ego into God and say, you have to be like this, or I will not believe in you.

That sounds like a path to failure. I think we must take away human thought and opinion of what God should be. and see God more like our own inner wisdom, but without the wisdom, God will be invisible to us.

(PS. when i speak of inner wisdom, it is not within the physical body)

That's fair. The problems I outlined assume an interpretation of God as a being that consciously created the world, its laws and the consequences of breaking those laws. They don't apply to all god concepts, such as some deistic or pantheistic interpretations.

Even if God is the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe who takes an active interest in human affairs, the problems we see in the world don't automatically disprove his existence. They do mean two things though: 1. Describing that being as "good" is a stretch. Amoral is probably a better description. 2. If that's what God is, then it's hard to argue that it's entirely on us when bad things happen.

As to putting our own ego onto God, that's pretty much inevitable. We are shaped by our own experiences and emotions and so our capacity for understanding is limited. If God is our inner wisdom, that wisdom would still be filtered through human perception and subject to all our flaws when we try to interpret it.

I know some people feel that it's possible to attain a state of understanding and oneness with God in which human flaws and ego are temporarily (or perhaps permanently depending on who you ask) put on hold. Some people also feel that they've had that experience. I can't claim to know for sure whether or not they're right but my personal stance is that they're probably mistaken. To be clear, I'm not saying I don't believe they had the experience. My view is that it's more likely to be a psychological phenomenon than a supernatural one if you follow?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I understand that when someone reads the Bible and maybe especially the Old testament they can think God is something evil or want to harm people.

Question:1

But here is a question for everyone.
Can it be that what we can read in the bible of the "negative" things that can happen is not because God want to harm us, but it is a warning of what will happen to us if we do not follow what God asks of us? (God, in this case, is the God/Buddha and so on in the religion you follow, not only the Christian God)

Question:2

Can it be that what we see as God is more of the universal law, that what we as humans think, say or do affect what we experience because, if we do not follow the law of the universe it is when we experience suffering?

So example the Coronavirus is not because God punishes us, but because we as human beings do not follow the law of the universe, but we follow the law made by human beings? or even worse. Not follow even human laws.

You're on the right track, I believe:

God's Law as revealed in the OT was to protect good people from wicked people and to foreshadow Jesus as Savior.

 

[HonestJoe]

Personally i see "God" or truth in everything that is around us even here on earth. God /Buddha is not a physical being that sits on a cloud looking down at us here on earth, it is a realization of truth..

You should probably stop using the term "god" (especially capitalised) for that concept then because it's entirely different to any common use or understanding of the name. Using it only serves to further confuse what is already an apparently an uncertain and fuzzy concept in your mind. At worst it's a dishonest attempt to use the foundations of existing beliefs and faiths to support your own new and different philosophy.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You should probably stop using the term "god" (especially capitalised) for that concept then because it's entirely different to any common use or understanding of the name. Using it only serves to further confuse what is already an apparently an uncertain and fuzzy concept in your mind. At worst it's a dishonest attempt to use the foundations of existing beliefs and faiths to support your own new and different philosophy.

Not sure why i i should stop using the word God when God is real but without a physical body, same as a Buddha, Buddha is not the physical body, but a state of mind.
All of the cosmos is a part of the mind we call God, Cosmos is alive just like a human soul/spirit is.
This is my understanding of what God is, others will see it differently.

 

[HonestJoe]

Not sure why i i should stop using the word God when God is real but without a physical body, same as a Buddha, Buddha is not the physical body, but a state of mind.
All of the cosmos is a part of the mind we call God, Cosmos is alive just like a human soul/spirit is.
This is my understanding of what God is, others will see it differently.

It depends whether you're actually interested in people actually understanding what you're talking about or you're actively trying to create some kind of fuzzy confusion to avoid any difficult questions?

Rightly or not, the word God carries a whole load of baggage, with vastly different meanings to different people in different contexts, so using it to casually describe some new (to us) concept can only possibly lead to further confusion and misunderstanding. If you can't understand that simple fact, I don't see any point in discussing anything with you. If you don't care about it, I don't see any point in discussing anything with you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It depends whether you're actually interested in people actually understanding what you're talking about or you're actively trying to create some kind of fuzzy confusion to avoid any difficult questions?

Rightly or not, the word God carries a whole load of baggage, with vastly different meanings to different people in different contexts, so using it to casually describe some new (to us) concept can only possibly lead to further confusion and misunderstanding. If you can't understand that simple fact, I don't see any point in discussing anything with you. If you don't care about it, I don't see any point in discussing anything with you.

All I try to do in this thread is to understand why people put so human attributes to what they see as a god. And then it is normal (for me) to explain my understanding of what God is. But for those who disagree with how I understand this topic, of course, you should have your own view of it.
My answer to this OP is not a solid answer that everyone else has to understand or believe in, it's just how I come to realize it.

 

[Thief]

I understand that when someone reads the Bible and maybe especially the Old testament they can think God is something evil or want to harm people.

see Lewis Black
his stand-up routine in Washington DC

 

[metis]

Can it be that what we see as God is more of the universal law, that what we as humans think, say or do affect what we experience because, if we do not follow the law of the universe it is when we experience suffering?

I drift in that direction, which is more of a naturalistic approach pretty much like that of Baruch Spinoza, Albert Einstein, and Fr. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

 

[Nakosis]

I understand that when someone reads the Bible and maybe especially the Old testament they can think God is something evil or want to harm people.

Question:1

But here is a question for everyone.
Can it be that what we can read in the bible of the "negative" things that can happen is not because God want to harm us, but it is a warning of what will happen to us if we do not follow what God asks of us? (God, in this case, is the God/Buddha and so on in the religion you follow, not only the Christian God)

Question:2

Can it be that what we see as God is more of the universal law, that what we as humans think, say or do affect what we experience because, if we do not follow the law of the universe it is when we experience suffering?

So example the Coronavirus is not because God punishes us, but because we as human beings do not follow the law of the universe, but we follow the law made by human beings? or even worse. Not follow even human laws.

What law? The laws of physics? Some laws thought up by some ancients who thought they were talking to God which folks figure out how to interpret for their benefit?

What law are we breaking?

 

[Spirit of Light]

What law? The laws of physics? Some laws thought up by some ancients who thought they were talking to God which folks figure out how to interpret for their benefit?

What law are we breaking?

Karmic law, it may not be called karmic law in every religion or spiritual path but it has to do with how we treat other people around us when it comes to morality, every religion or cultivation path teaches us how to become better in being morally good, and how we speak, act and think has everything to do with good or bad morality.
So if we treat someone badly, we will suffer down the road because of our wrong action. if we swear at someone we will suffer later. even our thoughts can create karma.
And just because many people do not see this, does not mean it is not there.

If we stop caring about how we speak, act and think about others that is a clear sign of low morality. and yes i know i will get many comments on this. and if you see it different then i do that is totally normal, because we are different people.

 

[Windwalker]

I understand that when someone reads the Bible and maybe especially the Old testament they can think God is something evil or want to harm people.

Question:1

But here is a question for everyone.
Can it be that what we can read in the bible of the "negative" things that can happen is not because God want to harm us, but it is a warning of what will happen to us if we do not follow what God asks of us? (God, in this case, is the God/Buddha and so on in the religion you follow, not only the Christian God)

Question:2

Can it be that what we see as God is more of the universal law, that what we as humans think, say or do affect what we experience because, if we do not follow the law of the universe it is when we experience suffering?

So example the Coronavirus is not because God punishes us, but because we as human beings do not follow the law of the universe, but we follow the law made by human beings? or even worse. Not follow even human laws.

You are essentially correct. I see it as the law of natural consequences for greedy actions. We reap what we sow. Loving others, respecting the world, honoring life, is all the "will of God", and to go against that, has its natural consequences.

All the rest, of "God is mad at us" is simply our human projections of our own guilt in an anthropomorphic image of God as a punisher of our sins. At best, it's a baby step towards realizing we are responsible for what happens to us. At worst, it is used as an excuse for not taking responsibility, expecting this super power outside ourselves to fix it for us. "The second coming" as a literal intervention on our behalf, is one example of that.

 

[Nakosis]

Karmic law, it may not be called karmic law in every religion or spiritual path but it has to do with how we treat other people around us when it comes to morality, every religion or cultivation path teaches us how to become better in being morally good, and how we speak, act and think has everything to do with good or bad morality.
So if we treat someone badly, we will suffer down the road because of our wrong action. if we swear at someone we will suffer later. even our thoughts can create karma.
And just because many people do not see this, does not mean it is not there.

If we stop caring about how we speak, act and think about others that is a clear sign of low morality. and yes i know i will get many comments on this. and if you see it different then i do that is totally normal, because we are different people.

I don't like moral laws. If I'm following a moral law/code then I'm lying to myself. If I'm following a moral law because of fear of punishment or fear of consequence or fear of karma then fear is my motivation. IMO if there is a natural law to the universe then going about, being exactly who I am and doing what I would naturally do is natural. Trying to live up to a moral code is not. It is artificial.

The Coronavirus is natural. Its being here is natural. No law was broken. We should have done nothing other than what was done. The "law of the universe" can't be broken. We, ourself are part of that process. We already are what we are supposed to be doing what we are supposed to be doing, according to the law of the universe. To say we should have done something else is claiming the law of the universe is wrong.

Humans do not exist separate from the law of the universe. We can not circumvent it. It governs all of our actions, all of our choices. To say we should have acted differently is trying to fix something that isn't broken. IMO.

 

[sun rise]

Can it be that what we can read in the bible of the "negative" things that can happen is not because God want to harm us, but it is a warning of what will happen to us if we do not follow what God asks of us?

It's natural in the West to focus on the Bible for Christians and Jews and to look for answers therein or to disagree with it. Not all people look at any scripture, Bible, Quran etc that way.

Can it be that what we see as God is more of the universal law, that what we as humans think, say or do affect what we experience because, if we do not follow the law of the universe it is when we experience suffering?

Call it karma or sowing and reaping, it's the same basic law.

God is 'love' but not the human concept of love, but 'agape'.

It's true that English lacks the vocabulary of the word 'love' compared to Greek which has agape, eros, philia, storge as well as philautia and xenia.

many people see God in a Human way

People often create God in their own image and imagine a super human, more of a Greek concept of gods with human emotions.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't like moral laws. If I'm following a moral law/code then I'm lying to myself. If I'm following a moral law because of fear of punishment or fear of consequence or fear of karma then fear is my motivation. IMO if there is a natural law to the universe then going about, being exactly who I am and doing what I would naturally do is natural. Trying to live up to a moral code is not. It is artificial.

By nature, we are social animals. If we act against social cooperation, if we harm others in the process, then we are failing to live up to the natural law, as it were. We are sinning against "God" in this sense.

The Coronavirus is natural. Its being here is natural. No law was broken.

However, our selfish actions and disregard for consequences lead to these sorts of consequences. Global warming for instance, is because we are acting out of accord with the natural balance of the ecosystem. I see that as "sinning", and whatever ill comes our way, may be traced back to our selfish greed.

Not all things that happen, like tornado hitting someone's house, is because of that. But certainly people falling ill and dying because some company is pouring garbage into the water upstream from them is due to sin. It is do to a disregard of human life, much like you hear in the suggestion of Trump we need to save the economy and people should get back out there and rescue it for him. That's sin.

We should have done nothing other than what was done.

You mean we couldn't have distanced ourselves from animals? What about becoming vegetarians, or only eating animals we ourselves hunt and kill, as opposed to raising them for industrial level consumption? You can't see any potential disease vectors being exposed by that practice?

The "law of the universe" can't be broken.

By laws of the universe, you need to include more than just physics. You need to include balance and order. And yes, absolutely, we can and we do violent that law all the time.

We, ourself are part of that process. We already are what we are supposed to be doing what we are supposed to be doing, according to the law of the universe. To say we should have done something else is claiming the law of the universe is wrong.

But people can choose between being irresponsible and selfish, or being responsible and helpful to others. We have agency. We have choice. We are not deterministically programmed to be evil or good. We can choose our attitudes and actions. We can change course.

Humans do not exist separate from the law of the universe. We can not circumvent it. It governs all of our actions, all of our choices. To say we should have acted differently is trying to fix something that isn't broken. IMO.

It is broken. We can change it. We have agency.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Can it be that what we see as God is more of the universal law, that what we as humans think, say or do affect what we experience because, if we do not follow the law of the universe it is when we experience suffering?

So example the Coronavirus is not because God punishes us, but because we as human beings do not follow the law of the universe, but we follow the law made by human beings? or even worse. Not follow even human laws.

The "law of the universe" is that life evolves, and some of what evolves is harmful to other life -- as in the case of this virus. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we humans "follow the law of the universe," because frankly, we can do no other.

 

[Nakosis]

By nature, we are social animals. If we act against social cooperation, if we harm others in the process, then we are failing to live up to the natural law, as it were. We are sinning against "God" in this sense.


However, our selfish actions and disregard for consequences lead to these sorts of consequences. Global warming for instance, is because we are acting out of accord with the natural balance of the ecosystem. I see that as "sinning", and whatever ill comes our way, may be traced back to our selfish greed.

Not all things that happen, like tornado hitting someone's house, is because of that. But certainly people falling ill and dying because some company is pouring garbage into the water upstream from them is due to sin. It is do to a disregard of human life, much like you hear in the suggestion of Trump we need to save the economy and people should get back out there and rescue it for him. That's sin.


You mean we couldn't have distanced ourselves from animals? What about becoming vegetarians, or only eating animals we ourselves hunt and kill, as opposed to raising them for industrial level consumption? You can't see any potential disease vectors being exposed by that practice?


By laws of the universe, you need to include more than just physics. You need to include balance and order. And yes, absolutely, we can and we do violent that law all the time.


But people can choose between being irresponsible and selfish, or being responsible and helpful to others. We have agency. We have choice. We are not deterministically programmed to be evil or good. We can choose our attitudes and actions. We can change course.


It is broken. We can change it. We have agency.

Ok, but I disagree. This belief that we could have acted differently, IMO, is simply spitting at the ocean. What happened, had to happen exactly as it happened. What happened, however affects all of us and moves us forward to the next moment. So you are now judging the past as being a mistake using knowledge you did not possess in the past. How could you/we have acted differently with none of us possessing the knowledge you now possess?

 

[Windwalker]

The "law of the universe" is that life evolves, and some of what evolves is harmful to other life -- as in the case of this virus. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we humans "follow the law of the universe," because frankly, we can do no other.

We can choose not to over-consume our environment. We can choose not to pollute. We can choose to be kind to others. The law, is balance and cooperation. We can choose to not be in accord with that. And when we do choose to not be, there are natural consequences. We reap what we sow. And that is a law of nature.

 

[Windwalker]

Ok, but I disagree. This belief that we could have acted differently, IMO, is simply spitting at the ocean. What happened, had to happen exactly as it happened.

No, it didn't have to happen that way. We chose for that to happen that way. We choose every time we elect leaders who are not respectful of life and others. We choose for it to happen every time we buy products which are harmful to the environment. We always have a choice.

To say we were fated for this, is to deny self-responsibility.

What happened, however affects all of us and moves us forward to the next moment.

Yes, we can learn and choose better choices. Or we can also choose to not learn and make the same mistakes all over again. We are responsible either way.

So you are now judging the past as being a mistake using knowledge you did not possess in the past. How could you/we have acted differently with none of us possessing the knowledge you now possess?

We did have the knowledge of this. We could see the damage happening, and foresee it's future impact with a strong degree of certainly. Global Warming deniers, for instance, are choosing to ignore all the evidences, like Creationists choosing to deny the overwhelming evidence for the fact of biological evolution. Scientists have been warning of a pandemic, and no one wanted to listen. They chose denialism and Trump instead, who fired the pandemic response team over a year ago. They chose Trump. They chose the danger he poses to all of us now.

We are all responsible in one way or another. There were no innocent mistakes made out of our ignorance. Everytime we vote for a denier, we vote are choosing all of this.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Off topic: I'm still unsure what my true path is.

I see that is the OP topic about the right question and your quandary to me is the most important question. Who am I, why am I here and what path do I walk!

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

No, it didn't have to happen that way. We chose for that to happen that way. We choose every time we elect leaders who are not respectful of life and others. We choose for it to happen every time we buy products which are harmful to the environment. We always have a choice.

To say we were fated for this, is to deny self-responsibility.

Of course we are responsible, whether we could have done differently or not. To say each only acted according to their nature does not deny responsibility. Just as the gear in the watch is responsible for moving the hands of the watch.

Yes, we can learn and choose better choices. Or we can also choose to not learn and make the same mistakes all over again. We are responsible either way.

If one is cable of learning, then it is learned. Those capable of learning learn. Those not cable of learning do not. We are responsible for the world as it is whether we are capable of learning a "lesson" or not.

We did have the knowledge of this. We could see the damage happening, and foresee it's future impact with a strong degree of certainly. Global Warming deniers, for instance, are choosing to ignore all the evidences, like Creationists choosing to deny the overwhelming evidence for the fact of biological evolution. Scientists have been warning of a pandemic, and no one wanted to listen. They chose denialism and Trump instead, who fired the pandemic response team over a year ago. They chose Trump. They chose the danger he poses to all of us now.

You asume Trump and those who support him could have been someone they are not. Can you be other than who you are. Can you be a denier? Let me know when you have chosen to be a Trump supporter.

We are all responsible in one way or another. There were no innocent mistakes made out of our ignorance. Everytime we vote for a denier, we vote are choosing all of this.

So you think it is ok to judge people for not making decision you think they should have made based on knowledge they don't have?
Well, I suspect there are many a Trump supporter that would make the same judgements about you.