Signs of the Times - What’s happening to our world?

[MNoBody]

what better way to force humans to use new technologies and change their social behaviorisms

 

[CG Didymus]

Welcome to the nobody club Tony. You’re not alone!

Do you really think that is what I'm trying to tell Tony? Here's the sequence of replies.

I see it over and over again that most Baha'is push their dogmatic view of "their" truth. How's is that bringing people together? How many people have been turned off by Baha'is not listening to them, but instead telling them how to interpret their own Scriptures? Tony, it's not working.

CG, I am a black and white guy, I give black an white answers, that's me, always has been. That is how I see the world and to me why waste time and beat around the bush? I see an urgency, I pass on the urgency. I do not desire to be popular or liked in that process. I leave that up to others.

Baha'is haven't earned the respect to blurt out their message like that. Even in those "mass teaching" projects, the Baha'is tried to break the news that they believed "Christ" has returned gently.

All I'm saying is "Black and White" attitudes aren't working here. That's something a Fundamentalist Christian would do. They would say, "Jesus is the only way. You are going to hell unless to turn to Jesus." Why don't you listen to them? Because you don't believe that is really true. Your religion teaches something different.

Well, that is how you sound to the Hindus, Jews, the Sikhs, and all the others.

I am in no need of respect from any person CG, this is not about me, it is about us. Who is drawing the lines? I am a world citizen, every person is my brother or sister, I treat them as I treaty own self, all are welcome, all are loved. Just as a family is made up of individuals, so is this world.

If you treat everybody as your brother and sister, and treat as you treat yourself, and if all are welcome, and all are loved, then whether you need it or want it, you would be respected by others as being a great Baha'i.

I am happy to leave the world as a nobody CG, I do not need others to identify with my journey in life and what I have chosen to do to make a better world as a Baha'i CG. Those that choose to Love me, know me for what I am, as I also know them in return.

 

[CG Didymus]

It would be a completely unjust God who would reward evil souls the same as good ones.

Could you go over again what Baha'is believe a "soul" is versus the "spirit" in a person? Mainly, is the soul a spiritual part of a person and is eternal. If so, then what is their spirit?

 

[Trailblazer]

Could you go over again what Baha'is believe a "soul" is versus the "spirit" in a person? Mainly, is the soul a spiritual part of a person and is eternal. If so, then what is their spirit?

Abdu'l-Baha did a good job of explaining that. The human soul is the same as the human spirit, so the words soul and spirit mean the same thing.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And you could do an experiment. Be a black and white guy with the next stranger you meet. Walk up to them and tell them, "Hi, I'm Tony and I'm a Baha'i. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ and taught that all people and religions are one." And what if they say, "But we are Catholic." Or, "We are Buddhist." Or, "We are Atheist." What would you say, "I don't care what you were. I'm a black and white kind of guy. You need to read the Baha'i Writings and see for yourself. It is THE truth."

Thanks CG.

This is a forum, the topic or question is posted and we get to respond. I respond from my understanding as a Baha'i.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: There is no reason to believe that God could not send a Messenger to speak for Him on earth and the preponderance of evidence shows that God did just that.

I gave you a very good reason but you choose to ignored it. The reason is God is whole, complete, and perfect without any needs or desires.

God does not send the Messengers for Himself. God sends the Messengers for human benefit. Humans are not whole, complete, and perfect without any needs or desires. Humans have needs and that is why God sends Messengers.

You seem like an ordinary person to me. I rest my case.

But Messengers of God are not ordinary people, as I already explained. I rest my case.

History is full of great men who were selfless in the service of others. Take the Buddha for example.

I believe Buddha was a Messenger of God, but not all great men were Messengers of God.

We are all equal in the eyes of the one true God regardless of our imperfections or behavior.

God forbid—all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are equal in the sight of God.

There is no doubt we need help. I can't argue with this premise. But the idea that you know God did something on purpose is delusional. No one speaks for God. No one knows the mind of God. No one knows anything God does. People attribute meaning to their experiences. This is why we have faith because we have no evidence.

There is no reason to think that God could not send Messengers or that He hasn’t done so. No one knows anything God does but I believe that God speaks to Messengers through the Holy Spirit.

As I said before, no one knows the mind of God, but that does not mean that no one speaks for God. Messengers of God who speak for God ONLY reveal the Will of God, not the mind of God. The Will of God is what God wants for humanity.

Your "Messengers" are sacred and holy. This is your choice. But this is not an objective truth we can all agree on.

No, it isn’t an objective truth everyone will agree on.

I have no idea what this scripture means. Please explain it.

It means that God is merciful and He gives us gifts. When God sends Messengers, they reveal what will be of benefit to humans, but God does not have to do anything to assist humans and in fact God could wipe us all out since God has no need for humans. All that we get from God is because of God’s Love for us. God created us out of His Love for us, not out of His need for us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Trailblazer said: “The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

Again, I'm not impressed. I have no idea what "birds of the realm of Utterance" means. Why is the "U" capitalized. My God! Why is scripture always crazy gibberish. What does "neither doth" mean. Jesus Christ!

Sorry, I should not assume that would be understandable. If one does not understand the basic teachings of Baha’u’llah, one cannot understand the Writings of Baha’u’llah. I will explain that piece by piece:

• ·God does not want anything for Himself.
• The loyalty or commitment of humans to God, or conversely, the perversity of mankind is of no profit to God.
• The Bird of the Realm of Utterance refers to the Messengers of God who speak for God. The “U” is capitalized out of reverence because the Utterance of the Messengers is equivalent to the Utterance of God.
• As the Voice of God, the Messengers say that everything they reveal to humans comes from God and it is for the sake (benefit) of humans.

Trailblazer said: That makes absolutely no sense. If God is the absolute authority, absolute authority cannot come from within a human.

Well thank you for agreeing with me. Obviously, you have sense of knowing what makes sense. This knowing is the only authority worth trusting. Other people's opinions should not be the basis or the foundation of your spirituality. You are solely responsible for your own salvation. Stop looking for it from other people's opinions.

You are correct in saying that other people's opinions should not be the basis or the foundation of your spirituality. We are solely responsible for your own salvation. The caveat is that Messengers of God are not ordinary people, and it is by their Guidance, which is God’s Guidance, that we can attain our own spirituality, since they know the Will of God and we cannot possibly know the Will of God without Them. In short, we can become spiritual when we follow the Will of God, not our own will, since humans are fallible and prone to make mistakes.

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

Obviously no one knows what really happens after we die until we die. But I'm pretty sure justice is NOT going to come from God. If you want justice it's going to come from secular law enforcement. Evil only exists in the realm of men. Men are responsible for cleaning it up. God has nothing to do with it. God has no need or desire to get involved. Clearly this is true based on human experiments. There seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. Again, if you want justice, I would not put God to the test. I would take responsibility for achieving justice here and now.

I agree with everything you said above, except when you said “But I'm pretty sure justice is NOT going to come from God.” Why wouldn’t God be just? Why wouldn’t justice come from God? I do not think we will see God’s justice until we die, and I have no idea how justice will be doled out by God in the afterlife, but I have no doubt that it will be doled out because a God that is not just is not loving; those two go hand in hand. I mean we cannot have thoroughly evil people who committed heinous murders not being held accountable for their actions and going to heaven with people who lived a selfless noble life – that is unjust and it is not loving towards the people who lost loved ones to those murderers and may have suffered their entire life because of their loss.

 

[Trailblazer]

This may sound unjust if your heart is immature and you take pleasure in the thought of sinners suffering. Or maybe your heart is full of hate and you are seeking revenge against
people who have sinned against you. Or maybe you are jealous and envious of someone else having more power than you do.

All of those are straw men. I am simply a rational person who believes in justice for all. It is not justice for heinous murderers to gate the exact same treatment from God as noble selfless people who sacrificed their lives in service to God… Get real.

Again, you gave created a God made in your own image, a make believe God, maybe because you don’t like the Bible God.

But from our omnipotent all-loving God's perspective, that is, our God of unconditional love, there is no condition on which love is judged. But what difference does it make to you, or to God, if Hitler walks through the gates of Heaven and experience eternal Heavenly bliss? It's not like Hitler is going to stop you from doing the same thing!

This is not about me, it is about justice. What you propose is irrational and unjust, everyone going to heaven regardless of faith and deeds. It is egregious.

But more importantly, it is a fantasy. Everything in this world is based upon rewards and punishments and it will be no different in the afterlife. We will reap what we sowed. There are no free rides to heaven.

The problem with evil is it is very subjective. A behavior for one person may be perfectly okay and absolute evil to another.

Murder is not subjective, it is evil. There might be mitigating circumstances but that is up to the courts to decide.

Therefore, in my World, you cannot achieve salvation from saying magic words or following what the "Messengers" are telling you to think or do. The only way to achieve salvation is to get forgiveness from the person or people you have sinned against.

And what if you don’t get forgiveness from them? Usually you don’t.

I think maybe you should be a Christian because they only have to ask forgiveness and they are saved. They do not have to do anything else because they believe God will not punish anyone as long as they repent and ask for forgiveness, and believe Jesus died for their sins.

We all know the golden rule. But there is also the golden rule of karma. If you cause suffering in others you will experience suffering in your own life here and now in equal proportion. The problem of evil affects our life in the present.

Why wouldn’t the law of karma also apply to the afterlife? I think it does because we reap what we sow. The following passage does not imply that God will punish us but rather we will realize what we did and that will be the punishment for our misdeeds.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

Expecting justice from God is wishful thinking.

If we do not get justice in this life through the court system why shouldn’t we get justice from God in the afterlife, however that is doled out?

Yikes. I think when we die we are too busy looking into the face of God experiencing God's infinite beauty to have time left over for any phone calls with the under-World.

Where do you get these ideas? This sure sounds like wishful thinking to me. I do not believe we will ever see God, not even after we die.

I believe in a cyclical Universe where everything repeats over and over again until every possible choice we can make get experienced by God as He realizes His omnipotence. God's experience of time is completely different than our own.

So you believe in reincarnation?

Where do you get these ideas? God does not rely upon humans to “realize” His omnipotence; God knows He is omnipotent because God knows everything. God does not rely upon humans for anything.

Trailblazer said: I do not have any Messenger telling me how to think. All the Messenger does is reveal the will of God.

The will of God. I am speechless. The only way to know the will of God is to BE God. I simply cannot accept this level of hubris.

Yet you seem to think you know the Will of God, isn’t that interesting. If you did not think you knew it you would not be saying what is going to happen to everyone in the afterlife, that they will all experience God’s Love. How can you know that unless you know the Will of God?

Your argument is circular. As I said, my faith is a choice. I have no evidence at all my God is as I have described. I may be completely wrong and I will suffer after I die. But this is the difference between you and me. My faith is stronger than yours because I am willing to risk it all by putting ALL of my faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. I feel very confident God will not let me down and I am going to do very well after I die. But thank you very much for your advice.

Why would you believe in a God you have no evidence for? Your faith is in yourself, not in God. My faith is in God as revealed by Messengers who established religions, not a God I made up in my own head. You want God to be an omnipotent God of unconditional love, so you created that in your mind. You are taking a pretty big chance because there is no reason to believe that you are right. Religious believers are not taking a chance because they have the scriptures to go by, so even if they did not get it completely right they will be in the ball park.

You do not understand the purpose of life and why we are here. We exist so our omnipotent God can experience the thrill of having limitations by sharing in our experiences of joys and frustrations. When we experience greatness in nature, in ourselves, and in great human performance it brings us closer to the unity of the perfection that is God. We are all drawn to God throughout our lives until we die and rejoin God in everlasting eternal bliss.

According to my beliefs, the purpose for which we were created is to know and love God.

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70

God does not need us for anything at all, but we need God for our very existence, since only by the power of God can we exist.

God has no limitations and thus cannot experience any limitations. God is completely independent of his creatures so God does not experience what we experience. You are anthropomorphizing God, bringing God down to a human level.

I found this thought extremely profound and I am still trying to wrap my head around it!

"Dionysius describes the kataphatic or affirmative way to the divine as the "way of speech": that we can come to some understanding of the Transcendent by attributing all the perfections of the created order to God as its source. In this sense, we can say "God is Love", "God is Beauty", "God is Good". The apophatic or negative way stresses God's absolute transcendence and unknowability in such a way that we cannot say anything about the divine essence because God is so totally beyond being. The dual concept of the immanence and transcendence of God can help us to understand the simultaneous truth of both "ways" to God: at the same time as God is immanent, God is also transcendent. At the same time as God is knowable, God is also unknowable. God cannot be thought of as one or the other only"

All of that in the paragraph above is congruent with Baha’i beliefs. God is immanent, God is also transcendent. At the same time as God is knowable, God is also unknowable. Great quote.

 

[dfnj]

God does not send the Messengers for Himself. God sends the Messengers for human benefit. Humans are not whole, complete, and perfect without any needs or desires. Humans have needs and that is why God sends Messengers.

There's nothing the Messengers are going to teach you about God that you cannot figure out on your own.

But Messengers of God are not ordinary people, as I already explained.

What do they have two kidneys instead of one? What makes them extraordinary?

There is no reason to think that God could not send Messengers or that He hasn’t done so. No one knows anything God does but I believe that God speaks to Messengers through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, there is no reason God would send Messengers. God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. For God to choose to send someone would imply God has a purpose. Having purpose means God has some kind of need or desire driving the purpose. Why would you think our omnipotent God has any limitations at all? What reason would God send Messengers to humanity? Humanity is perfect just the way it is. We have everything we need to solve all our own problems if we choose to do so.

As I said before, no one knows the mind of God, but that does not mean that no one speaks for God. Messengers of God who speak for God ONLY reveal the Will of God, not the mind of God. The Will of God is what God wants for humanity.

You are splitting hairs now. Nobody knows the will of God. This is pure fantasy. God is beyond our comprehension. Our brains would explode.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Flowery word salad. It means nothing.

• ·God does not want anything for Himself.
• The loyalty or commitment of humans to God, or conversely, the perversity of mankind is of no profit to God.
• The Bird of the Realm of Utterance refers to the Messengers of God who speak for God. The “U” is capitalized out of reverence because the Utterance of the Messengers is equivalent to the Utterance of God.
• As the Voice of God, the Messengers say that everything they reveal to humans comes from God and it is for the sake (benefit) of humans.

Does God want loyalty or not? Why would you ever use the word "profit" and "God" in the same sentence. God needs absolutely nothing from us.

As I said your idea of Messengers is weak. If they truly were Messengers they would teach you how to communicate to God directly. Oh wait, if they did that there would be no bibles to sell in the bookshop on the way out of the church.

If the Messengers say they are speaking for God by what was revealed to them then they are delusional at best. I've said all along it is the height of human hubris and possible man's greatest possible sin to pretend to speak for God or reveal words that came from God. If the message for truly for the benefit of humans it would teach humans how to think for themselves as opposed to regurgitate bird food.

The caveat is that Messengers of God are not ordinary people, and it is by their Guidance, which is God’s Guidance, that we can attain our own spirituality, since they know the Will of God and we cannot possibly know the Will of God without Them. In short, we can become spiritual when we follow the Will of God, not our own will, since humans are fallible and prone to make mistakes.

If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him.

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68

I get it now. This passage is very illuminating. Your religion is not about spirituality. Your religion is a religion of adulation. You worship dead priests called Messengers in order to elevate their status as being divine, sacred, and essentially God figures. Your religion is a religion of fandom!

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

The thing is I don't accept the throne metaphor when it comes to the Almighty. God has no need to be worship. Again, my faith is stronger than yours because my faith does not require me to be taught by your Messengers. My faith is in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who lets everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal Heavenly bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced or not practiced our religion. This is because unconditional love means no conditions. Unconditional love means no judgment. As I've stated the multitude of evidence from near death experiences supports my faith. My omnipotent God of unconditional love will not let me down. Just like a parent who would give their life to save their child. The God I have faith in would never forsake me.

Why wouldn’t justice come from God?

God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. God has no need to carry out the justice on behave of men who think someone else deserves it.

I mean we cannot have thoroughly evil people who committed heinous murders not being held accountable for their actions and going to heaven with people who lived a selfless noble life – that is unjust and it is not loving towards the people who lost loved ones to those murderers and may have suffered their entire life because of their loss.

All of those are straw men. I am simply a rational person who believes in justice for all. It is not justice for heinous murderers to gate the exact same treatment from God as noble selfless people who sacrificed their lives in service to God… Get real.

My God is way more loving than your God. My God would not be limited to just loving who you deem "people who lived a selfless noble life." My God's love has no boundaries. My God loves the least deserving among us as much as the greatest living saint among us. This is what makes my God the greatest possible of gods!

Again, there is no doubt life is unjust. There is no doubt life is full of suffering. Everyone suffers regardless of what happens or who did it. Who do you blame if you get cancer or you have to live with my type of craptastic body! People with hate in their hearts love the idea we have a God of judgment because they are weak and unable to forgive. But the idea God is going to carry out justice on the behave of the living, or for someone who has died, is pure delusion. Hate of any kind is really man judging God. Deep down people want others to suffer for all eternity because they hate God.

Every living and non-living thing is precious and sacred to God. Man's love is limited and conditional. Only God's love is unconditional.

Again, if you want justice you have to find it for yourself in our courts of secular law.

 

[dfnj]

Again, you gave created a God made in your own image, a make believe God, maybe because you don’t like the Bible God.

I am not perfect. My mind and body are full of imperfections and flaws. To suggest God is like me is really showing your lack of reverence for how God is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires. I am constantly needy. Wow, if you only knew the depth of what you are saying.

This is not about me, it is about justice. What you propose is irrational and unjust, everyone going to heaven regardless of faith and deeds. It is egregious.

What is egregious is how much you hate God. What difference does it make who God lets into Heaven to experience eternal Heavenly bliss. It's not like Hitler is going to stop you from entering the gates. I'm sure Hitler's mother loved Hitler as much as any mother. Why should she have her heart broken because of other people's hate and lack of power to forgive.

Do you honestly think anyone would ever get through the gets of Heaven if we had to live a sin free life. It's impossible. We were created with too many imperfections. Everyone sins. So everyone can be judged as unworthy by some scale.

I am pretty sure God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about. The problem is free-will. Unless I have omnipotent powers to define exactly what my list of choices are I can choose from then I am really not responsible for all my sins. Sometimes the only choices we are forced to make is the lesser of two evils.

But to really see how silly you are in your thinking you need to really think about what is evil? Evil means a million different things to a million different people. Which person does God go to for the answer on what is evil? What is evil is purely subjective an opinion. I think the answer is God does not choose at all on what is evil and what is not.

Again, if you want justice you have to find it for yourself in our courts of secular law.

But more importantly, it is a fantasy. Everything in this world is based upon rewards and punishments and it will be no different in the afterlife. We will reap what we sowed. There are no free rides to heaven.

When we die we go into the light we look into the face of God we experience God's infinite beauty. We experience the greatest possible fulfillment, we no longer have any needs or desires, we no long have conscious thoughts because God's beauty puts us into a state of eternal bliss. Once we melt into God we no longer exist as our own consciousness. Our soul returns back from whence it came. We are done. There is no more suffering. There are no more needs or desires. There is nothing left to learn.

This is why my omnipotent God of unconditional love is so much more powerful than your Messenger gods. The moment we experience my God's infinite beauty there's nothing left to do.

Murder is not subjective, it is evil. There might be mitigating circumstances but that is up to the courts to decide.

So is the executioner a murderer? Is a soldier a murderer. Some people think a doctor who makes a mistake is a murderer. There are million different scenarios you can come up with where someone is going to claim someone else is a murderer.

And what if you don’t get forgiveness from them? Usually you don’t.

This is the best question you've given me! Here you go fresh off the presses. I just thought of phasing my idea of what happens when you causes someone suffering yesterday.

Everyone knows the golden rule. The golden rule doesn't just stop with future action. Here's the version of the golden rule that deals with the past. I call it the golden rule of karma. If you cause suffering in others you will experience suffering in your life in equal proportion. And the contrapositive is true also. If you are responsible for causing other people to experience joy, happiness, and enthusiasm, you will also experience joy, happiness, and enthusiasm in your life in equal proportion. We are the authors of how we experience our life in the present.

If you can't get forgiveness from someone you have sinned against you will suffer in your life, here and now, in equal proportion.

I think maybe you should be a Christian because they only have to ask forgiveness and they are saved. They do not have to do anything else because they believe God will not punish anyone as long as they repent and ask for forgiveness, and believe Jesus died for their sins.

I am a Christian. I think the idea of the trinity is brilliant and profound:

The trinity debate - Is it monotheism?

I'm just not a fan of certain types of Christianity. Especially ones that are evangelical in nature.

Why wouldn’t the law of karma also apply to the afterlife? I think it does because we reap what we sow. The following passage does not imply that God will punish us but rather we will realize what we did and that will be the punishment for our misdeeds.

Here's where my religion is radically different than yours. I believe the reason why we exist is so our omnipotent God can experience the thrill of having limitations by sharing in our experiences of joy and suffering. All through our lives we make a set of choices. These choices are an integral part of God realizing His omnipotence. I don't believe we live in a one-and-done Universe. I believe we live in a cyclical Universe. And every time we exist we make a different set of choices. Then over some insanely long amount of inter-dimensional space-time God gets to experience every possible choice we can make. The purpose of this is so God can completely realize His omnipotence. The thing is God does not experience space-time the same way we do. For God, our Universe and all the other ones we repeat in all occur in a single instance. God's omnipotence is perfect, whole, complete, without any needs or desires to experience anything more or beyond what has been experienced throughout each cycle of existence.

From God's perspective, every person is just as evil and as good as any other. Because over the infinite number of cycles of existence every choice each of us can possibly make gets experienced by God as He realizes His omnipotence.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! ...

Sorry, I don't accept your lesser God of fear, evil, hate, and judgment.

If we do not get justice in this life through the court system why shouldn’t we get justice from God in the afterlife, however that is doled out?

Why compound your lack of justice by experiencing the results of not being forgiving. All through your life you will experience injustice from other people. Giving into your hate only leads to more suffering. People only take away from you what you let them. Don't let them take anything!

Where do you get these ideas? This sure sounds like wishful thinking to me. I do not believe we will ever see God, not even after we die.
So you believe in reincarnation?

I don't believe in reincarnation only because I am in denial. This is because I keep ending up in New Jersey each time!

I get these ideas from God. I am a Messenger.

Going into the light and looking into the face of God to experience God's infinite beauty is the greatest possible experience a consciousness can have! I am looking forward to it but I am not in any hurry. In the words of Woody Allen, "I'm not afraid of dying I just don't want to be there when it happens!"

 

[dfnj]

here do you get these ideas? God does not rely upon humans to “realize” His omnipotence; God knows He is omnipotent because God knows everything. God does not rely upon humans for anything.

I was joking about being a Messenger. I'm just some bloke from New Jersey who has spent a lifetime studying the World's religions.

Yes, God knows everything. Our experience of time is different than God's. Essentially, things are exactly as I say because God is a time traveler. You shouldn't doubt what I am saying because God can create a whole Universe with just three words!

Yet you seem to think you know the Will of God, isn’t that interesting. If you did not think you knew it you would not be saying what is going to happen to everyone in the afterlife, that they will all experience God’s Love. How can you know that unless you know the Will of God?

Most of what I've said is based on Apophatic theology. God is absolute "goodness", and therefore, all-loving.

Why would you believe in a God you have no evidence for? Your faith is in yourself, not in God.

God is a word. The word God represents something profound. I'm sorry I am not conveying it to you so you can appreciate it with your own conviction. I would love to see you strengthen your own inner authority on this subject.

My faith is in God as revealed by Messengers who established religions, not a God I made up in my own head. You want God to be an omnipotent God of unconditional love, so you created that in your mind. You are taking a pretty big chance because there is no reason to believe that you are right. Religious believers are not taking a chance because they have the scriptures to go by, so even if they did not get it completely right they will be in the ball park.

I understand you are afraid. It takes courage to have faith in God's love. I am not afraid.

I have not made up anything. I have made a choice. My choice is to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. Omnipotence and unconditional love have implications which I am just sharing with you. I feel what I am saying is logical and reasonable once you choose to have as strong of a faith in God as I do.

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70

“A physicist is just an atom's way of looking at itself.” Niels Bohr

God does not need us for anything at all, but we need God for our very existence, since only by the power of God can we exist.
God has no limitations and thus cannot experience any limitations. God is completely independent of his creatures so God does not experience what we experience. You are anthropomorphizing God, bringing God down to a human level.

I am no where near what God is being. You are the one who follows people claiming to know the will of God. You are the one who is bringing God down to your human Messenger level. I have been saying no one knows the will of God because God is beyond our comprehension. I never said God does not understand exactly what and who we are. We exist as a sacred part of God's plan as He realizes His omnipotence. And that plan is the realization of every possible possibility.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you really think that is what I'm trying to tell Tony? Here's the sequence of replies.

I was just thinking along the lines of being humble and being as nothing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you really think that is what I'm trying to tell Tony? Here's the sequence of replies.

Hi CG. We try to be but we aren’t perfect. There’s a lot anyone can find wrong with us as we are learning and have not yet matured as much as we’d like.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But, do you know or care what the beliefs of some to the other people posting on these threads that are started by Baha'is? They came to you. Many of them with an opposing view. Why challenge their view in a way that makes them oppose the Baha'i Faith even more?

I thought how to reply to all these questions about me and how I see and share my Faith and considered in the end it is best answered by questions.

If Baha'u'llah is as He claims, then how do you reconcile your response to that Message since you first heard of it?

How will you come to terms with the years that you have not joined in and tried to change the world in the way that Baha'u'llah said it must change, to find our unity?

All the questions you ask me, then become reflection of your own self, questions you have to ask and balance within you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why challenge their view in a way that makes them oppose the Baha'i Faith even more?

Explain to me how the Message of Baha'u'llah is not the challenge?

If any person was to read what Baha'u'llah offered, then does that not then become the challenge?

Why has it anything to do with me? I can partly answer that when considering the questions you have asked of me and that is how wise we are in sharing that challenge.

In the end, no one that does not see it is a challenge, will take it on, be it given with milk or honey or by the sword of the tongue. Which brings me back to the fact that one can not control what the response will be, but one can choose to not put fuel on a fire.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I was just thinking along the lines of being humble and being as nothing.

Yes, it's a complicated thing. I can see how a person that becomes truly humble and is as nothing, then they can reflect God's love more. But then there are those that are trying to force it. They aren't truly humble but know that they should be humble. They know they should tell others about spiritual truths, but they aren't truly living them yet. But who among us is so spiritual, that we don't have to tell others about how spiritual we are? Which then defeats the purpose. And everyone can see through us and see we how un-spiritual we are.

That is what I'm talking about. Some Baha'is can't truly humble themselves and be one with other people in other religions or with atheists. They still have to tell them how much better the Baha'is Faith is. But, I really do think we're all getting better. Which is nice.

 

[CG Didymus]

But, do you know or care what the beliefs of some to the other people posting on these threads that are started by Baha'is? They came to you. Many of them with an opposing view. Why challenge their view in a way that makes them oppose the Baha'i Faith even more?

If Baha'u'llah is as He claims, then how do you reconcile your response to that Message since you first heard of it?

How will you come to terms with the years that you have not joined in and tried to change the world in the way that Baha'u'llah said it must change, to find our unity?

Explain to me how the Message of Baha'u'llah is not the challenge?

In the end, no one that does not see it is a challenge, will take it on, be it given with milk or honey or by the sword of the tongue. Which brings me back to the fact that one can not control what the response will be, but one can choose to not put fuel on a fire.

Okay, most of the people from other religions that respond to Baha'is on these threads are disagreeing with something about the Baha'i Faith or about what a Baha'i has said. So quoting you, "one can choose to not put fuel on a fire." That is the challenge for Baha'is. Is that really putting "honey" on it? A person might think they are speaking with the "sword" of truth, but they aren't. They are talking about the sword of the truth of their religion, and it's smashing into a brick wall.

But most of us don't have walls all the way around us. There is a door. Knock and ask nicely most people will let you in. Come to the door with your sword drawn... no ones going to open the door.

The Baha'is message has many good points, but some bad ones too. To a Hindu you say that Krishna is not an incarnation and there is no reincarnation. To Jews you tell them that they have missed their Messiah Jesus... and Muhammad, and The Bab and Baha'u'llah. To the Christian you tell them that Jesus is not God. He's didn't rise from the dead, but, in fact, he is dead. If the door was ever open, it just got slammed in your face. They're not going to listen to you. They are going to oppose you and find everything they can that shows how wrong your religion is.

For me, the Baha'i message has some problem areas. I'm not going to sign a declaration card that says that I believe the Baha'i leaders were sent by God. I'm not going to sign a card saying I'm going to obey the things he taught. The Baha'i Faith falls into that negative thing called "organized" religion. You have your teachings and rules and leaders that are there to make sure people follow most of those rules. Will there be a day when more and more rules get enforced? I think so. And like all religions with a lot of rules, nobody is able to obey and follow all of them. Not one Baha'i is perfect. So way give the power to rule over others to imperfect people? There is going to be problems. The ones passing judgement over others are going to have vices too... but probably hidden from view. Which then makes those people lead double lives... the Holy outward life and the not so holy secret life.

Are you going to rid the world of alcohol? If not, there will be Baha'is that drink. How about pot and other "recreational" drugs? If Baha'is aren't going to rid them forever, then some Baha'is will find them and use them. And then there's the sexual preference issue. There will always be gays, lesbians, transsexuals and people having sex without being married. Sex with others while being married. And so on. Baha'i rules aren't going to change any of those things. And it will be worse if Baha'is ever get the power to try and enforce their rules. Other than that... I really like the Baha'i Faith.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, it's a complicated thing. I can see how a person that becomes truly humble and is as nothing, then they can reflect God's love more. But then there are those that are trying to force it. They aren't truly humble but know that they should be humble. They know they should tell others about spiritual truths, but they aren't truly living them yet. But who among us is so spiritual, that we don't have to tell others about how spiritual we are? Which then defeats the purpose. And everyone can see through us and see we how un-spiritual we are.

That is what I'm talking about. Some Baha'is can't truly humble themselves and be one with other people in other religions or with atheists. They still have to tell them how much better the Baha'is Faith is. But, I really do think we're all getting better. Which is nice.

Humility is one of the greatest spiritual qualities....
I remember reading somewhere, I think it was Abdul-Baha Who said humility was like the ocean or river which because it put itself lower, all water flowed into it whereas the mountain which exalts itself above everything like pride does causes all the water to flow away from it. This story stuck with me for over 40 years because it spoke figuratively of the different influences pride and humility both have in the world of being.

So being like a mountain is not really helpful if one wants to collect water. Lol.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, most of the people from other religions that respond to Baha'is on these threads are disagreeing with something about the Baha'i Faith or about what a Baha'i has said. So quoting you, "one can choose to not put fuel on a fire." That is the challenge for Baha'is. Is that really putting "honey" on it? A person might think they are speaking with the "sword" of truth, but they aren't. They are talking about the sword of the truth of their religion, and it's smashing into a brick wall.

But most of us don't have walls all the way around us. There is a door. Knock and ask nicely most people will let you in. Come to the door with your sword drawn... no ones going to open the door.

The Baha'is message has many good points, but some bad ones too. To a Hindu you say that Krishna is not an incarnation and there is no reincarnation. To Jews you tell them that they have missed their Messiah Jesus... and Muhammad, and The Bab and Baha'u'llah. To the Christian you tell them that Jesus is not God. He's didn't rise from the dead, but, in fact, he is dead. If the door was ever open, it just got slammed in your face. They're not going to listen to you. They are going to oppose you and find everything they can that shows how wrong your religion is.

For me, the Baha'i message has some problem areas. I'm not going to sign a declaration card that says that I believe the Baha'i leaders were sent by God. I'm not going to sign a card saying I'm going to obey the things he taught. The Baha'i Faith falls into that negative thing called "organized" religion. You have your teachings and rules and leaders that are there to make sure people follow most of those rules. Will there be a day when more and more rules get enforced? I think so. And like all religions with a lot of rules, nobody is able to obey and follow all of them. Not one Baha'i is perfect. So way give the power to rule over others to imperfect people? There is going to be problems. The ones passing judgement over others are going to have vices too... but probably hidden from view. Which then makes those people lead double lives... the Holy outward life and the not so holy secret life.

Are you going to rid the world of alcohol? If not, there will be Baha'is that drink. How about pot and other "recreational" drugs? If Baha'is aren't going to rid them forever, then some Baha'is will find them and use them. And then there's the sexual preference issue. There will always be gays, lesbians, transsexuals and people having sex without being married. Sex with others while being married. And so on. Baha'i rules aren't going to change any of those things. And it will be worse if Baha'is ever get the power to try and enforce their rules. Other than that... I really like the Baha'i Faith.

That is your choice CG, I am not here to change your choices.

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

After the event was a book writing tradition of scientists.

Old Testimonials....New Testimonials and promises as said by the writers of the Books, Holy Books. Books that claimed that they wanted Christ to RETURN.

Therefore if you think science, then think from a planetary perspective. O God the stone philosophy as it is stated. The planet.

Science taught the stone ended as stone. Yet from its raising of the laws of the mountains (volcanoes) the spirit was spurted forth into the womb of cold pressurized and empty space. How it was taught. Therefore those spirits changed and evolved.

Our heavenly body. The evolution of which was a non sacrificed cold clear gas mass. It was Immaculate said science.

The Sun it was stated is a rebellion in old science terms. It blew out the spirit gases for stone...then burnt hotter as a rejection of stone existing. So the Sun was quantified to be an attacker.

Science said it attacked Earth and stone and converted it, sacrificed the spirit gases of its heavenly body and only holy water saved its existence.

As a science statement, just as science, for science and not for any other reason.

Life is not science.

Life can be talked about by a scientist, yet that scientist first owns a natural and equal same life condition as anyone else. Science might give itself a human condition to discuss information, yet that information is only a discussion.

It does not actually own any relevance to our own human life living.

But when science is applied ….the machine reaction and it attacks Earth as God and also our human life, then humans talked about why it was wrong.

Because their life then was sacrificed, and that condition is not acceptable to anyone. The reason we know it is real....if healthy humans live and survive in the same environment as sick and dying and ill humans, then a condition exists that owns cause of change.

For in relative human natural advice we should all be healthy. Why it became a discussion.

So if a Bahai message says that when their Messenger, a human living giving self detailed information dies and then a virus emerges in the same event....then they would say, it owns a realization.

Therefore the discussion said 1000 years is a history on Earth of notification. Only known by humans living for that 1000 years after they said life got attacked and sacrificed. For humans said...the biblical literature or holy books in any country were constantly being updated as DATA evaluations.

For it is always human applying those evaluations.

Therefore advice said after life was sacrificed...they said it was named Jesus...then Jesus, released spirit gases returned and kept life safe...after it was seen and known to be attacked. Which no one should ignore. For first it was attacked.

Then humans said after life had been sacrificed and saved...then 1000 years meant either a Satanic return or a Jesus return.

Which owned a defined human testimony relating to Earth owning its own gas spirit or the Sun being the evil spirit changing the Earth gases.

Humans therefore said...for the Sun had not stopped sending its evil messenger...the UFO radiation mass.

1000 years ago humans teach that life, mind and health declined into the Dark Ages. So had a real reason for making this claim.

Therefore it is obvious that 1000 years ago the Sun released a higher amount of radiation mass.

Which was the warning to scientists. Humans had no control over what the Sun did.

Yet science tried to claim it knew the Sun inheritance as if it maintained a one of interactive science reasoning.

Science already proved that the Sun never owned a natural one of interaction with Earth. It attacked Earth due to science changing the nature of cold space.

And said the cycle was 1000 years.

Therefore teaching that the year 1000 from 1000 would be a conscious identified return, meant 2000 plus 12. Natural light and not irradiated atmospheric conditions.

Which would have allowed human healing to re develop. What we all were looking forward to gaining. Human health development.

However science proved that meddling with radiation fusion experiments brought an Earth attack in the Year 1901. And it was heard speaking the warning and event to humanity by conditions that was taught as being artificial voice recording.

Why we knew that the information was correct...that human sciences were consciously warned in subliminal advice to not copy the nuclear condition again....yet the self human warnings prove that they were ignored.

As simple as it is rationally. Human sciences built machines that never owned natural history. Radiation extra was involved in those science machine states. Machines changed natural life health on Earth and it was advised.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, it's a complicated thing. I can see how a person that becomes truly humble and is as nothing, then they can reflect God's love more. But then there are those that are trying to force it. They aren't truly humble but know that they should be humble. They know they should tell others about spiritual truths, but they aren't truly living them yet. But who among us is so spiritual, that we don't have to tell others about how spiritual we are? Which then defeats the purpose. And everyone can see through us and see we how un-spiritual we are.

That is what I'm talking about. Some Baha'is can't truly humble themselves and be one with other people in other religions or with atheists. They still have to tell them how much better the Baha'is Faith is. But, I really do think we're all getting better. Which is nice.

I think also that we are new on the scene and have not learned how to best express ourselves. We don’t have special seminars and things like what priests have been going to to get trained. So our training as to how to act and behave is largely left between us and God and how well we read and study to that degree we are efficient but we do have our Example in Abdul-Baha so there is really no excuse if we don’t try and communicate more like He did.