Coming to Islam is coming to a polytheistic religion.

[danieldemol]

The two witnesses are for the contract. 1 being on leave at the initial signing doesn't cut it. Two witnesses required.

How in the world can one person being on leave even come into the picture at the day of signing a contract when the people have not even been identified? That's a bogus argument.

Exactly what I tried to tell you.

It is at the time of a contract. At that particular time, two women are required as testimony. This is not talking about a latter dispute or/and witnesses being called. Thus, think a little. It is at the latter date that a witness is required, and on that day, it is better to have had two women as witnesses because if one lady cannot come for some reason which are all-natural and things that only women have to go through, another person may be available. I think its a very sound thing to think of.

I don’t think it is sound. What exactly is this latter date you have in mind, is it a court case where a woman is required to testify to what she earlier signed?

As of today, when you make a contract where you borrow the money you need physical witnesses. Maybe in the future things will change. Some banks require personal guarantors. So if i suggest to them "I can provide you guarantors who will do only voice verification" like you suggested they will tell me to go fly a kite.

Yet if you told any bank woman in the western world that she needed her signature doubled by another woman she would also tell you to go fly a kite.

Thus, rather than making these silly arguments, just look at the text and make the correct claim.

Cheers.

The text does not tell me much about your interpretation of it.

If my arguments were silly business in the western world would collapse without following the injunction of the Quran to bring two female witnesses in the place of one male. It doesn’t collapse therefore my argument that the system works without such unnecessary and discriminatory over-regulation is not silly.

 

[firedragon]

Exactly what I tried to tell you.


I don’t think it is sound. What exactly is this latter date you have in mind, is it a court case where a woman is required to testify to what she earlier signed?


Yet if you told any bank woman in the western world that she needed her signature doubled by another woman she would also tell you to go fly a kite.


The text does not tell me much about your interpretation of it.

If my arguments were silly business in the western world would collapse without following the injunction of the Quran to bring two female witnesses in the place of one male. It doesn’t collapse therefore my argument that the system works without such unnecessary and discriminatory over-regulation is not silly.

Great.

But your arguments are not even closely related to your original accusation that was directly and definitely misquoting the verse you were misrepresenting.

That's the bottom line. Read again mate. Your arguments are "STRAWMAN".

 

[danieldemol]

Great.

But your arguments are not even closely related to your original accusation that was directly and definitely misquoting the verse you were misrepresenting.

That's the bottom line. Read again mate. Your arguments are "STRAWMAN".

Let’s not get too caught up in my original argument which was about how certain Muslims who see women as deficient interpret the verse.

As my understanding of your interpretation evolved I tailored my questions to suit your interpretation of it.

I think I have done a fair job of demonstrating through my unanswered questions that the idea of having two women testify in the place of one man is an idea that ought to be put in the bin.

On that point I think i’m not strawman-ing you at all.

 

[firedragon]

Let’s not get too caught up in my original argument which was about how certain Muslims who see women as deficient interpret the verse.

As my understanding of your interpretation evolved I tailored my questions to suit your interpretation of it.

I think I have done a fair job of demonstrating through my unanswered questions that the idea of having two women testify in the place of one man is an idea that ought to be put in the bin.

On that point I think i’m not strawman-ing you at all.

If you wish to discuss if the Quran applies precisely to the modern era, it maybe a valid discussion, but not relevant.

Your comments were

So a Prophet doesn’t like the equal testimony of women... put the idea in the bin.

So a Prophet doesn’t like the idea of monogamous gay folk... put the idea in the bin.

Both are false. Direct misrepresentation of whatever verses you are referring to. So, arguing that is not "western style" is a strawman argument. Argue, that the verses you refer to are exactly saying what you alluded. Then its not a strawman but a relevant argument.

Cheers.

 

[Baroodi]

I posted the following in another thread:

By the way from my point of view anyone who denies anything in Quran from it's clear teachings to verify a system come up by humans is a polytheist. This is the state of Muslims. They are polytheists worshipping their scholars. The truth is Ilmel Rijaal can be useful but when taking too seriously as it is, the intention is not truth seeking but Sunnah of forefathers confirmation bias kicking in and the intention is Shirk not for God. I testify that Ilmel Rijal worshippers are the worse type of disbelievers among humans. This only because the Quran is testified by them but they misinterpret it to worship Satanic identity of themselves and their scholars.

Comment (past this is new):

I want to prove that Islam in it's current state and people coming to it and holding on to it, are coming to a polytheistic religion in a polytheistic state.

This might sound exaggerated, but per Quran, I believe this is true. The real intention when God is disobeyed and Iblis' authorities obeyed is when God is deemed less or equally as important as idols among humans and Jinn.

This is the truth.

I will be proving Islam is a false religion and Muslim a meaningless title in this thread. Of course, there are exceptions and truth seekers in all religion labels, but the label is meaningless now, and the religion false in the state it is.

I will be proving this beyond doubt. This will be through seeing what the true religion of submitting to God means and what Islam is meant today. This will be proven through both Quran and Sunnah.

We are probably the most insolent and insincere to God nations, but have deceived ourselves otherwise. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

This really made me to muster my pity for you. The address is exciting as usual but all the content is trash. first are you talking about assessing a curriculum or about the performance of the examinee? A she-camel suffered severe labor pains and delivered a rat!!!

 

[Link]

Until Muslims separate Islam from what they claim it is, it is almost a meaningless undefined title and the religion they divide themselves and further sectarian themselves into sects, it stands as a false polytheistic religion.

Islam doesn't represent the path to submitting to God because it is about submitting to humans now pretending it's for the intention to submit to God.

 

[Link]

Part of the signs that they abandon Quran for their self-appointed leaders is the abandonment of verse 42:23.

 

[Link]

Part of the signs of they don't care for Quran is how they twist left and right and centre verse 42:23 and divorce it from it's contextualization in Quran.

 

[Link]

And among the signs in how they've ignored Muta verse and justified malakat aymanihm to mean slaves, when it referred to Muta partner.

And among the signs, is how they ignore verses explicitly and in detail telling you what to do with apostates during time of war, and even then, it said in Suratal Nisaa, if they offer peace there is no way against them so as to kill them. Yet, they on a basis of a hadith with no context, say whoever disbelieves in Islam after believing is to be killed.

And among the signs is they justify conquering a people and fighting a people because they believed in a false Prophet, when so much of the Quran, is saying to disbelievers what they must do regardless if Mohammd (s) is seen as true or false by them, regardless if he is a fabricator or not, possessed or not, sorcerer or not.

And among the signs is they don't collect the verses about punishment of Zina together, and isolate verses, and abrogate verses, when they can be understood together, and hence lashing to a metaphor for each day in isolation as a means of reformation.

And among the signs is despite singular use of hand and not saying which or how much of it, which proves it's a parable, they take literal cutting of a hand of a thief despite the language proving beyond doubt because it's not partial of hand/arm and it's singular, to be a parable of stop the means of him stealing till he repents and leaves his ways.

And among the signs is justification of slavery, when the philosophy of Tawhid is against it.

And among the signs is their division of land in land of disbelief and land of belief, when Quran says, if you travel in the land, do not call anyone a disbeliever, because they were in a ignorant state as well before till God showed kindness to them and guided them to his religion.

And among the signs is despite a great deal of Quran being about Ahlulbayt, close their eyes, and pretend they don't see.

And among the signs is they thought like children of Israel there would be no trial and sorcery would not touch them from Iblis, and as a result have become equally blind.

And among the signs is how tyrants are included in Ulil-Amr and Ulil-Amr is divorced from it's flow context linking back to comparison to the family of Abraham and their authority, and contrast to religious scholars of Jews and Christians and their authority. Contrast as in, it's of the chosen type, the true type of Authority, the only type of authority, and comparison as in there was an Ahlulbayt in the past, that even those who don't recognize the Ahlulbayt of Moses and Aaron due to corruption of the Torah in this regard, acknowledge the Ahlulbayt of Abraham.

So why do they see God's favor through that, but deny God's grace upon humans, through Ahlulbayt of Mohammad?

This is the flow, the context, and way believers are told to obey the Ulil-Amr.

And among the signs, is despite, "...and God is regarding his servants aware seeing. Then he inherited the book to those who has chosen from his servants so of them is who is oppressive to himself...", despite "his servants he is aware and seeing regarding them" giving context to "from his servants so of them (his servants)", the sorcery and conjecture of their misguiding leaders, makes it as if the oppressive is from the chosen servants despite the theme of chosen servants in Quran to be those exalted above all people, and despite the continuity of the verse "and from them (his servants) are those on a middle course, and from them is who races (ahead of all) in good deeds", and that it's obvious those who race ahead of all in good deeds are the chosen ones which is further explained by "that is the great superiority."

So it obviously when ignoring the sorcery and waswas of Iblis by the verses before and after and reflecting of the very verse, to mean:

God with respect to his servant is aware and seeing and he chosen from his servants some of his servants to inherit the book, so of his servants as a result of this are three, those who are oppressive to themselves (deny the chosen), those in the middle (believers) and those who race (ahead of all) (the chosen).....and the final being the great superiority by that God chose them in regards to, knowing they would race ahead of all in good deeds when he chose them.

And the verses before talked about those who hold on the book and recite it and the reward they get, so it's obvious emphasizing now those chosen ones who inherit the book (and here the inheritance is of a different type then the people who recite and hold on to the book) a long with the the book.

The truth is so vividly clear. And among the signs is despite the context of Quran that Mohammad is the living Quran and the reminder now is the Quran and Mohammad's light, "ahlul-thikr" who are in the context of Suratal Nahl to be sought for proofs of God and signs of the religion and explanation of what has been revealed, and in context of Suratal Anbiya that and their leadership towards but primarily their sought for miracles in forms of signs that prove the power of God and his religion vested in the chosen ones, they translate it to mean either people of the book or their scholars.

And this while they narrate authentically Imam Baqir (a) said "we are the family of the reminder", to mean, he is one of the scholars.

So God's curse is upon a people who disbelieve after believing, and who turn their backs after witnessing the Messenger is true.

This is how they turn away from the family of the reminder, when ahl primary meaning is family, and can only be translated really otherwise when it's impossible to translate as family due to the context making it impossible.

This is despite the context in Suratal Anbiya is that the reminder is Quran and Mohammad's (s) is the reality of where the understanding of Quran is, and Quran calls to Mohammad's (s) authority, and his Authority through miracles and signs calls to Quran.

This is despite the emphasis of chosen families and houses through out Quran, the house of Abraham being specifically emphasized, and representative of every group of guides God appointed for humanity.

This is despite the theme of chosen houses, they turn away from both the local context, and the theme of Quran through out, and say ahlul-thikr are their scholars. What a joke.

With a little reflection, just a little, because it's all over the Quran, the Wilayah of Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them) would become vividly clear.

And as for 33:33, the verse after 33:34 is female plural. If wives addressed as Ahlulbayt and in plural male by some made up grammar rule Wahabis are making up in regards to, it would've remained, male plural.

So 33:34 is decisive proof that not only is Ahlulbayt not the only the wives, that the wives are not even possibly included, by the shift back to plural female. And ironically, this was the only way to decisively leave no room per grammar that wives are included in Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s). The shift after in 33:34 makes it vividly clear, but people won't even think about this. And this despite all Sunni and Shiite hadiths about the event of the latter part of 33:33 being revealed about Ali, Hassan, Hussain, and Fatima.

And this despite Zainab, who is honorable and knowledgeable and wise, and is a major figure, was alive during the event of Kisaa but was not included. She was not under the cloak.

Zainab being a daughter of Ali and Fatima, and grand daughter of the Prophet, was not included, because the term Ahlulbayt refers to the chosen household of chosen ones by God associated closely together in the spiritual realm and in this world with regards to their mission of guidance.

So God's curse is upon those who turn away from proofs and who interpret their Quran per their caprice despite clear proofs in the Sunnah to the truth.

And among the Signs is how they play games with the words of Ghadeer and divorce the Prophet's usage of word dependent on context from it's context.

And among the signs is how much hatred Harun has had, that they don't acknowledge he is the successor of Moses and didn't die before, but rely on conjecture of the Torah that he died before, while the death of Aaron and his sister Mariam was seen as a way of God's breaking the covenant to Aaron and his offspring, because of their turning away from God and insolence towards God and Moses'.

And God named Mariam by the name of the sister of Moses and Aaron, because this was the biggest corruption, is what they accused the first Mariam of and spoke evil with regards to, and spoke evil about Aaron with respect to.

And they were no less then Moses', they were his equals, and they were chosen by God, and may God curse those who divide between his Messengers, and divide the 1st from the 2nd, or the 2nd from the 3rd, and so on and so forth, all the way to the 13th (who is the 12th successor of the first).

And Quran is a clear book.

And the sorcery pertaining to it, of the signs they are mislead by it, is they speak nothing about it, as if Quran didn't vividly warn regarding in suratal Haj and through out.

And among the signs is "peace be upon the family of Yaseen" is the proper way to recite a verse in Quran, and there are plenty proofs for this, but they pretend otherwise.

 

[shunyadragon]

People who purposely disobey God to obey their own chosen leaders are polytheists.

People do not normally believe they disobey God or God(s), but many believe in multiple Gods in one from or another either heavenly or earthly,