Coming to Islam is coming to a polytheistic religion.

[Link]

The concept of lesser Gods are common in the Bible also, and cannot be ruled out in the traditional beliefs and roots of Islamic culture.

I think you mean exalted ones or ones with immense power such as Jinn and Angels. But God in English is a unique title and it's not contextual like exalted in Hebrew, where by context, you know it to refer to God or exalted ones, depending.

So there is no lesser gods, there are exalted ones, and there are immensely powerful jinn true among evil ones as well.

But semantics are important.

I understand though in Hebrew this can be confusing, as the word Elohim means "Exalted ones" in some cases, which translate by sloppy translators as "gods" or by context, refers to God even though plural.

Hebrew was a bad language in this regard that had no unique word to exalt God above others. This is why it had to use context, as well, Jehova was emphasized in the same way Al-Hayu is emphasized, which As-Sammad interprets why in Quran.

But because in Arabic "Allah" means "The God" and Quran argued if you have a word "The God", then by no means can there be "lesser gods" as nothing compares or comes close to God rank.

Sons of God is also a bad translation, in Arabic, the proper translation is the those near or drawn close to God. The chosen close ones to God from Angels and humans, are "sons of God" in Hebrew.

In Arabic, it caused confusion and people really thought they were born out of God.

Semantics is more then half the battle. It is the battle.

 

[Link]

I would offer that the Word of God has quoted Hadiths in this age, as such God has confirmed that some Hadith does have foundation in Truth.

The problem is, with no clear authority, it would mean that it has to find foundation in the Quran and the issue then is the interpretation of the Quran verses themselves. Who in this age has authority to say what the Quran means?

Regards Tony

The Quran is meant for all humans, Imam Ali Hadi (a) when people were obsessed over destiny and "God's will" verses, said, to rely on the clear signs, and wrote a letter explaining the stance between totally free-will and no role of God in that, and God's destining all creation with no will from creation, and in there, said, at the end, if there are verses unclear to you or anything unclear from Quran, leave them, as "those who follow what is best" means those who follow the clear signs of Quran.

I think this letter is in Tuhufaqal uqool. Not sure at the moment, been 10 years since I read it.

Quran is easiest book to understand and yet the hardest. It's the sorcery and serpent nature of Iblis and his kind, that make it hard.

The Quran is the most clearest of all books written.

That is why, one way to cure yourself from black magic, is just focus on the line "Ha Meem - (I swear by) the Clear book".

The book is clear - but the hearts with problems mock it all up and complicate things for not only themselves but other humans they misguide.

 

[firedragon]

I know that. Which is why I said most don't understand.

The Quran says pertaining to Mohammad's (s) speech "it's not but a revelation he reveals", but this is exaggerated prose. It means everything he says is a revelation of the revelation of God. But not everything he really says, God told him to say those exact words.

The Quran also says the Mohammad (s) is a reminder revealed. And said he is the clear proof. This means Quran and his life, are intertwined.

This is to no surprise, as Resalah has been emphasized more so then Nubuwa. Without Resalah (the message) you get very little benefit from Nubuwa (the Quran).

I think that leads into a different debate.

But i would like to state something. Maybe you would find it irrelevant, i dont know.

When you say Rasala means the message its a strange sentence to me. If you say arrisaalathu or arrisaalah with wakth, then its correct.

 

[Link]

Balaghal mobeen (clear conveyance) = role of Messenger.
Nubuwa (receiving the tiding/revelation to people from God) = Nabi.

This all I mean. Both are Mursal (sent by God).

 

[Link]

I think that leads into a different debate.

But i would like to state something. Maybe you would find it irrelevant, i dont know.

When you say Rasala means the message its a strange sentence to me. If you say arrisaalathu or arrisaalah with wakth, then its correct.

Oh right, Risalah is what I meant haha.

 

[firedragon]

Oh right, Risalah is what I meant haha.

Sure bro. Thats fine.

 

[shunyadragon]

I think you mean exalted ones or ones with immense power such as Jinn and Angels. But God in English is a unique title and it's not contextual like exalted in Hebrew, where by context, you know it to refer to God or exalted ones, depending.

So there is no lesser gods, there are exalted ones, and there are immensely powerful jinn true among evil ones as well.

But semantics are important.

Semantics is not the issue whe the concept of Our God above other Gods. There is the distinct description of other Gods, and lesser Gods. Immensely powerful has the connotation of other Gods.

I understand though in Hebrew this can be confusing, as the word Elohim means "Exalted ones" in some cases, which translate by sloppy translators as "gods" or by context, refers to God even though plural.

I understand the proper use of the plural in Hebrew, and it is not an issue here. It is clear description of Gods plural in the Pentateuch,

Hebrew was a bad language in this regard that had no unique word to exalt God above others. This is why it had to use context, as well, Jehova was emphasized in the same way Al-Hayu is emphasized, which As-Sammad interprets why in Quran.

But because in Arabic "Allah" means "The God" and Quran argued if you have a word "The God", then by no means can there be "lesser gods" as nothing compares or comes close to God rank.

In Islam this likely the best understanding, and any consideration of polytheism is weak

Sons of God is also a bad translation, in Arabic, the proper translation is the those near or drawn close to God. The chosen close ones to God from Angels and humans, are "sons of God" in Hebrew.

In Arabic, it caused confusion and people really thought they were born out of God.

Semantics is more then half the battle. It is the battle.

Poor interpretation of 'Sons of God' in the Islamic understanding. No literal Sons of God in Islam. There is no evidence of confusion in the history of Islam

Your leaning heavy on a contemporary interpretation of what God is understood to mean. If you read with understanding the Pentateuch in the context of the time and the archaeology, yes Henotheism and possible polytheism were very real. The text of the Pentateuch can be easily cited as 'Our God above other Gods' as a war and rivalry of different tribal Gods. Worthy of note: Female idols were commonly found in ancient Hebrew ruins similar the Ugarite or Canaanite female God.

In Christianity the Trinity can easily be understood as Tri-theism, and actually anthropomorphic Tritheism as .'three persons.'

There are possible interpretations of the Quran for lesser Gods, but the argument is weak.

 

[shunyadragon]

Christianity and Judaism were founded from God yet Quran doesn't call them true religions, although, they have a basis from God's book.

This is more an interpretation of the relationship between the three different religions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

These are my thoughts and beliefs.

Islam as taught by Prophet Muhammad and the Quran is the true religion of God.

Islam as being taught by scholars and religious leaders who’s interpretations are worshipped does not represent true Islam.

When Islam taught by Prophet Muhammad and the Quran is embraced then one is monotheistic.

When one worships the ideas of scholars and religious leaders above Prophet Muhammad and the Quran then they are making them equal or partners to God and that Islam is polytheistic.

As to sects. I believe the Caliphs usurped the authority of the Quran for themselves when clearly Muhammad left to humanity His Family. That is, the true succession of Islam were the Imams not the Caliphs.

“The guidance vouchsafed to the Imams regarding the laws and institutions of Islam was absolute and unqualified. Their infallibility was derived directly from the Manifestation.”
(Shoghi Effendi)

 

[Link]

The problem is you can't divorce the label Islam from those who claim it. This is why it's a false religion like all others now.

 

[firedragon]

Islam as being taught by scholars and religious leaders who’s interpretations are worshipped does not represent true Islam.

Yet, aren't you doing the same?

 

[Link]

Yet, aren't you doing the same?

They are, but they don't realize it.

 

[Muffled]

Hadiths of the right type compliment and give insights to Quran. If Quran doesn't verify it, it's not a true hadith, because Mohammad's (s) words were calculated to compliment the Quran.

I believe it is equally likely that the Hadith is a misinterpretation of the Qu'ran and the agreement is an agreement in misinterpretation.

 

[Muffled]

They are, but they don't realize it.

I believe he is correct that it is just as likely that you misinterpret the Qu'ran as it is that others do.

 

[Muffled]

I would offer that the Word of God has quoted Hadiths in this age, as such God has confirmed that some Hadith does have foundation in Truth.

The problem is, with no clear authority, it would mean that it has to find foundation in the Quran and the issue then is the interpretation of the Quran verses themselves. Who in this age has authority to say what the Quran means?

Regards Tony

I do not believe there is a Word of God that has ever quoted an Hadith

 

[shunyadragon]

The problem is you can't divorce the label Islam from those who claim it. This is why it's a false religion like all others now.

In one sense or another all religions are false religions, because of the fallible nature of being human including yours. Human understanding of the Divine is through dark dirty glass.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yet, aren't you doing the same?

I don’t believe so.

 

[firedragon]

I don’t believe so.

See brother, while you accuse others of following others, other than God, you are quoting others, other than God.

Dont you see that you stand on your own accused stand?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I posted the following in another thread:

By the way from my point of view anyone who denies anything in Quran from it's clear teachings to verify a system come up by humans is a polytheist. This is the state of Muslims. They are polytheists worshipping their scholars. The truth is Ilmel Rijaal can be useful but when taking too seriously as it is, the intention is not truth seeking but Sunnah of forefathers confirmation bias kicking in and the intention is Shirk not for God. I testify that Ilmel Rijal worshippers are the worse type of disbelievers among humans. This only because the Quran is testified by them but they misinterpret it to worship Satanic identity of themselves and their scholars.

Comment (past this is new):

I want to prove that Islam in it's current state and people coming to it and holding on to it, are coming to a polytheistic religion in a polytheistic state.

This might sound exaggerated, but per Quran, I believe this is true. The real intention when God is disobeyed and Iblis' authorities obeyed is when God is deemed less or equally as important as idols among humans and Jinn.

This is the truth.

I will be proving Islam is a false religion and Muslim a meaningless title in this thread. Of course, there are exceptions and truth seekers in all religion labels, but the label is meaningless now, and the religion false in the state it is.

I will be proving this beyond doubt. This will be through seeing what the true religion of submitting to God means and what Islam is meant today. This will be proven through both Quran and Sunnah.

We are probably the most insolent and insincere to God nations, but have deceived ourselves otherwise. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Your thesis is just baloney. The professions of Islam is "There is ONE GOD and Muhammed is his prophet." That's not polytheism, sir.

 

[Link]

People who purposely disobey God to obey their own chosen leaders are polytheists.