What would the world look like without clergy?

[IndigoChild5559]

Hi everyone!

As a follow up to my previous thread I created this one because I think they are very closely connected, we each have been given eyes to see for ourselves and a mind to think with for ourselves so why do we need clergy?

Haven’t we arrived at a place in history with the internet where we can investigate truth for ourselves?

As opposed to Prophets, clergy have not been given any special powers by religious scriptures so why do people follow them and what if the world were free from clergy and we each independently investigated truth with our own minds?

What do you think the world would look like without clergy?

One has only to look at the traditional Quakers to see how a group functions without clergy. On the one hand, certain power abuses don't take place.

However, the kind of specialized knowledge that come from focused study over long periods of time doesn't exist. The average Quaker doesn't have the specialized knowledge of a scholar the way someone who has gone to seminary, or a yeshiva, or whatever your own higher institution is called, has. Questions arise, and the quality of the answers given is simply poorer. The idea that "the holy spirit will give all the wisdom a person needs" is simply preposterous. If a person doesn't know the needed facts, they aren't going to miraculously be given those facts by the holy spirit.

Remember also that the clergy are able to bring children into the covenant (whether it is baptism, circumcision, or whatever your faith does), passage into adulthood (bar mitzvah, confirmation, protestant baptism, etc.) marriage, visiting the sick and dying, and helping the mourning with a funeral for all the members of their congregations only because they don't have time competitions from another job.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What about all the wars and murders leaders have commanded their followers to commit? In the Quran it is forbidden to attack first but Muslim leaders have broken this law over the centuries and told their followers to commit mass murder of innocent people.

Had the followers studied the Quran for themselves many would have seen clearly that their leaders were disobeying the laws of the Quran and refused to take part in such atrocities. But as they never questioned their leaders nor checked what the Holy Texts said many innocent people have been slaughtered including Hindus.

These things happen when the clergy replace the Holy Book and the followers replace the authority of the Holy Book with leaders who have no real God given authority.

It seems to me that these things cannot be blamed on clergy per se, since they are abuses of authority, as you have made clear.

 

[loverofhumanity]

but how do you knoooooooooooow?

and yes the end is near
this planet can support only 9billion copies of this learning device

THEN you will need two things
water and lead

water to drink
and lead
to hold unto water long enough to drink it

That’s where we need science to help provide a solution.

 

[loverofhumanity]

One has only to look at the traditional Quakers to see how a group functions without clergy. On the one hand, certain power abuses don't take place.

However, the kind of specialized knowledge that come from focused study over long periods of time doesn't exist. The average Quaker doesn't have the specialized knowledge of a scholar the way someone who has gone to seminary, or a yeshiva, or whatever your own higher institution is called, has. Questions arise, and the quality of the answers given is simply poorer. The idea that "the holy spirit will give all the wisdom a person needs" is simply preposterous. If a person doesn't know the needed facts, they aren't going to miraculously be given those facts by the holy spirit.

Remember also that the clergy are able to bring children into the covenant (whether it is baptism, circumcision, or whatever your faith does), passage into adulthood (bar mitzvah, confirmation, protestant baptism, etc.) marriage, visiting the sick and dying, and helping the mourning with a funeral for all the members of their congregations only because they don't have time competitions from another job.

I respect that clergy do fulfil certain important aspects of religion but my personal view is that we should all investigate truth for ourselves as God gave us each a mind to think for ourselves. But they can and do perform vital functions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It seems to me that these things cannot be blamed on clergy per se, since they are abuses of authority, as you have made clear.

Yes very true. The followers are as much to blame for blindly following them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hi Youthon. You make some very good points.

I have one main argument why we need to think with our own minds and see with our own eyes and not others and it is summed up in these Words of Baha’u’llah....

Consider the Dispensation of Jesus Christ. Behold, how all the learned men of that generation, though eagerly anticipating the coming of the Promised One, have nevertheless denied Him. Both Annas, the most learned among the divines of His day, and Caiaphas, the high priest, denounced Him and pronounced the sentence of His death.
(Gleanings)

And how many Prophets of God have come since and been denounced by those who claim to be learned amongst all religions?

Since the appearance of Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah have appeared and yet similarly been denounced just as the priests of His Day denounced Christ.

What guarantee does the 4 billion followers of these clergy have that they have not made the same grave error the Jewish high priests made with Jesus?

 

[Kenny]

By clergy I mean self appointed primarily as opposed to scriptures authorising a person.

I think ‘seek and Ye shall find’ is the correct attitude but it must be using our own minds as we were given them for a reason. To question and never to just accept blindly the views of anyone. Blind imitation has been the cause of many wars where the followers blindly agree to carry out killings and wars called for by their leader without first questioning what the Holy Books say which are always opposed to hatred and violence.

Yes! There are those who self appoint! But that doesn't mean there are pastors, teachers etc.

Certainly we must test the spirits and make sure we don't follow blindly. The Holy Spirit will guide a person into what is true and what is not.

Good statement loverofnhumanity

 

[Kenny]

What guarantee does the 4 billion followers of these clergy have that they have not made the same grave error the Jewish high priests made with Jesus?

We have the Spirit of Truth to help us discern what is of God.

 

[Thief]

That’s where we need science to help provide a solution.

have you seen the movie?....Soylent Green

 

[Ancient Soul]

What about all the wars and murders leaders have commanded their followers to commit? In the Quran it is forbidden to attack first but Muslim leaders have broken this law over the centuries and told their followers to commit mass murder of innocent people.

Had the followers studied the Quran for themselves many would have seen clearly that their leaders were disobeying the laws of the Quran and refused to take part in such atrocities. But as they never questioned their leaders nor checked what the Holy Texts said many innocent people have been slaughtered including Hindus.

These things happen when the clergy replace the Holy Book and the followers replace the authority of the Holy Book with leaders who have no real God given authority.

It seems to me that these things cannot be blamed on clergy per se, since they are abuses of authority, as you have made clear.

That doesn't make any sense.

The "clergy" ARE those in authority, so they cannot be absolved by mere word games. For they are always the ones abusing their authority and miss-using their religion to suit their own agenda. So I don't get your attempt to absolve them.

 

[Ancient Soul]

We have the Spirit of Truth to help us discern what is of God.

Not that bombastic claim again!

So how come all Christians claim that, and yet NONE of them can agree on much of anything about what is or is not "true" or "false" about their mythology?

I'm thinking it's more the "Spirit of Demons" telling each Christian something entirely different and then LAUGHING at them all as they all fight among themselves on who has it "right" and who has it "wrong".

 

[loverofhumanity]

We have the Spirit of Truth to help us discern what is of God.

Thing is that’s what they all say especially those who persecuted the Prophets of God. In every age Prophets from God have been crucified, stoned, exiled and tortured at the hands of those who claim to have the Spirit of Truth.

 

[rational experiences]

Why is it that the human masses coerced by those who claim self superiority get harmed and not the hierarchy?

Why does a document say I built the Church and Temple for a Holy purpose.....for if it were holy, then everyone would just be going to Church and Temple and never own a war or fighting....for you would be applying self to be spiritual by mind and body.

By honouring your own life and sanctity....so built specific buildings for that purpose.

Why did religious pursuit own claim to controlling civilization laws in their community, asides from being spiritual?

Is the real circumstance of history. Groups of males who divided self between 2 living conditions and not factually co join spirituality and self in that ideal that spirituality is natural and to honour self, then the self needed to be honoured.

And if you owned a scientific community within that structure and that community abused life by owning irradiation and brain burning changes to our life spirit and chemical mind....then it became a huge challenge to be a spiritual life and honour it also.

Without being angered and then want to identify who the culprits were.

When the history says occult science, radiation science was owned and used by a huge world community as it is today...and then all lie about whose history owns the teaching of it.

When in actuality the blame is owned by the human male as a group world community.

And males know that not only do they victimize Nature, the animals and the human female, they also made self their own victim, and still today have not arrived at that personal conclusion.

There is a factual known human world communal advice about why brain radiation change and war is a mutual activated choice that belongs to the state SCIENCE...why science as a community separated its group from human law and spiritual idealism...as the fact of it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

have you seen the movie?....Soylent Green

Heard of it but haven’t seen it. It’s about overpopulation that’s all I know. If I get time I’ll have a look at it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That doesn't make any sense.

The "clergy" ARE those in authority, so they cannot be absolved by mere word games. For they are always the ones abusing their authority and miss-using their religion to suit their own agenda. So I don't get your attempt to absolve them.

What I’m advocating is we all use our own brains to think with and not blindly follow clergy for they have a proven track record of crucifying Prophets and starting holy wars. I believe we should never follow any religious leader who teaches superiority or exclusiveness as God teaches to love and respect all people but this is not what all clergy teach.

I have come across religionists who won’t talk to me because their religious leaders tell them not to befriend other religions as they might get ‘infected by the devil’ and such nonsense. In other countries priests instigate persecution against minority faiths.

A good minister who teaches love for all humanity is awesome and a person who should be listened to. But I believe we all need to be vigilant lest we allow ourselves to be manipulated to become prejudiced against others.

 

[Ancient Soul]

What I’m advocating is we all use our own brains to think with and not blindly follow clergy for they have a proven track record of crucifying Prophets and starting holy wars. I believe we should never follow any religious leader who teaches superiority or exclusiveness as God teaches to love and respect all people but this is not what all clergy teach.

I have come across religionists who won’t talk to me because their religious leaders tell them not to befriend other religions as they might get ‘infected by the devil’ and such nonsense. In other countries priests instigate persecution against minority faiths.

A good minister who teaches love for all humanity is awesome and a person who should be listened to. But I believe we all need to be vigilant lest we allow ourselves to be manipulated to become prejudiced against others.

Sorry to confuse you.

My reply was meant for "IndigoChild5559".

I added YOUR post up top so anyone reading the thread could better follow the full discussion.

 

[Kenny]

Not that bombastic claim again!

So how come all Christians claim that, and yet NONE of them can agree on much of anything about what is or is not "true" or "false" about their mythology?

I'm thinking it's more the "Spirit of Demons" telling each Christian something entirely different and then LAUGHING at them all as they all fight among themselves on who has it "right" and who has it "wrong".

Not bombastic at all. Even children disagree with their parents even though parents know better. People are still people and don't want to listen to the Holy Spirit.

They didn't even want to listen to Jesus Christ when he was speaking to them directly directly. Then you have so many voices and influences that create static. Like the old radio where you had to fine tune the station to remove other competing stations.

Even you disagree and yet I tell you the truth. 1 John 2:27 His anointing teaches you all that you need to know, for it will lead you into truth, not a counterfeit. So just as the anointing has taught you, remain in him. TPT

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Most of contemporary Paganism. We've often been described as traditions where everyone is functionally their own priest/priestess. That comes with its problems as well as its assets.

If everyone's their own priest/priestess, wouldn't that make everyone clergy?

That's the approach within some Quaker groups: they're also non-hierarchical and believe that there are no intermediaries between the believer and God, but their take on this is that their religion has no laity, not that it has no clergy.

I think this is an interesting approach.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One has only to look at the traditional Quakers to see how a group functions without clergy. On the one hand, certain power abuses don't take place.

I didn't see this before I posted.

As I mentioned to @Quintessence , it's fairly common among Quakers to see their religion as having no laity rather than no clergy.

 

[Muffled]

I believe it would look like the wild west. Cattle rustling and shootouts.