Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
No, the trick is to know how to break free from of all bible related religions FEAR mongering brainwashing systems.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Where's the devil?
- Thread starter Ebionite
- Start date
No, the trick is to know how to break free from of all bible related religions FEAR mongering brainwashing systems.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You think that they are worthy of fear?
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Depends.
If someone has a feeble mind that cannot tell fact from fiction, then they might fear the devil/Satan myth.
Otherwise, no.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You're conflating reality with perception.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
No.
I think I made it clear enough, that the ones "conflating reality with perception" would be the feeble minder persons who could not tell fact from fiction, and so feared the devil/Satan as something "real".
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You did when you conflated reality with what people think about it.
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
I cited al Fatihah first, who then, according to qur'an, are:
[1] those who have evoked [Your] anger
[2] those who are astray.
[2] those who are astray.
Secondly, are you stating to me that the sources I cited, in both Tafsir and Hadith are in error in what they state? Answer straight please.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
I've no idea if they are in error or not. The point is that the Quran is not the same as the Hadith or exegesis. The Hadith has an extensive history of errors including the paedophile prophet story. Exegesis is secondary/derived material. Typically religions are politicised by secondary sources being held as more authoritative than the original, particularly regarding interpretation of the primary source.
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
Please, you cannot simply erase the Sahih Hadith, and used in Islamic Jurisprudence in marriage, I know better, and have all the sources, but just to shortcut it, - Muhammad's Marriage to a Prepubescent Girl and its Moral Implications
Aisha was circa 19 (18-19) years old when Abu al Qasim died (AD 632, and live for another 44 years or so, dying around age 64; circa AD 678).
"... Aisha was born 613 or early 614.[18][19] ..." - Aisha - Wikipedia
18. Abbott 1942, p. 1
19. Ibn Sa'd 1995, p. 55
Aisha was born at the beginning of the fourth year of prophethood
i.e., the year 613–614
i.e., the year 613–614
Ibn Sad is accepted by Islam, and Muslim Scholars.
"... The sīra of Ibn Ishaq edited by Ibn Hisham states that she was nine or ten years old at the consummation.[38] ..." - Aisha - Wikipedia
So, even Ibn Ishaq (which I also have on file) says the same, and his record is one of the earliest, as redacted by Ibn Hisham.
We can show in other ways, by simply narrowing down the questions by other accepted Sahih Hadith. Let's begin:
For instance:
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 736:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet died when he was sixty three years old.
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet died when he was sixty three years old.
Do you accept this Hadith?
(Yes, it's a trap, but at least I told you so).
I don't know if it's been mentioned somewhere in here, but how is it that the devil is supposed to be confined and condemned to Hell, yet he is running amok in the world leading souls astray? How do demons escape Hell to possess and torture souls on Earth?
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
That's a misunderstanding of what scripture (KJB) teaches. The devil is in no way in charge of 'hell'. The devil, a real physical being, is alive and running around on this planet:
1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
NO.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
The vision of cosmic struggle, forces of good contending against forces of evil, derived originally from Jewish apocalyptic sources and was developed by sectarian groups like the Essenes as they struggled against the forces they saw against them.
This revision of earlier monotheism also involved a split in society, divided between ‘sons of light’ against ‘sons of darkness’. Followers of Jesus adopted the same pattern. Each of the gospels in its own way invokes this apocalyptic scenario to characterize conflicts between Jesus’ followers and the various groups each author perceived as opponents.
The Devil does not come from Judaism, it is rather a pagan influence. The Zoroastrians believed that there were two gods, one good and one evil, in constant opposition and competition for human souls. Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism during the time period before Christianity arose.
In no part of the canonical books of the “Old Testament” are we given the Devil in the Christian sense—the once favored angel that sought to lead a rebellion to overthrow God, was cast from heaven into hell, and now seeks to tempt/trick/torture human beings in opposition to God’s will.
The term ha‑Satan means literally the‑Adversary, and the term is used in a number of contexts that mean adversary in general. The closest thing that we find to the Christian concept is its use as the title (though not the name) assigned to an angel in Yahweh’s court.
He was a prosecutor for God against human individuals, with God as the Judge. Ha‑Satan could not act without God’s permission and did not cause people to sin, though God may have ha‑Satan test a person, as in the case of Job. Ha‑Satan’s primary role was to record and point out the sins people committed and argue against them in the holy court in accordance with God’s will. In the (apocryphal) book of Enoch, Satanael/Samyaza is the leader of the Grigori, who again were cast out of heaven for sleeping with human women and producing a race of giants.
This revision of earlier monotheism also involved a split in society, divided between ‘sons of light’ against ‘sons of darkness’. Followers of Jesus adopted the same pattern. Each of the gospels in its own way invokes this apocalyptic scenario to characterize conflicts between Jesus’ followers and the various groups each author perceived as opponents.
The Devil does not come from Judaism, it is rather a pagan influence. The Zoroastrians believed that there were two gods, one good and one evil, in constant opposition and competition for human souls. Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism during the time period before Christianity arose.
In no part of the canonical books of the “Old Testament” are we given the Devil in the Christian sense—the once favored angel that sought to lead a rebellion to overthrow God, was cast from heaven into hell, and now seeks to tempt/trick/torture human beings in opposition to God’s will.
The term ha‑Satan means literally the‑Adversary, and the term is used in a number of contexts that mean adversary in general. The closest thing that we find to the Christian concept is its use as the title (though not the name) assigned to an angel in Yahweh’s court.
He was a prosecutor for God against human individuals, with God as the Judge. Ha‑Satan could not act without God’s permission and did not cause people to sin, though God may have ha‑Satan test a person, as in the case of Job. Ha‑Satan’s primary role was to record and point out the sins people committed and argue against them in the holy court in accordance with God’s will. In the (apocryphal) book of Enoch, Satanael/Samyaza is the leader of the Grigori, who again were cast out of heaven for sleeping with human women and producing a race of giants.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It's not about erasing it, it's about recognizing the hazards in using it as a basis for interpretation.
Better than what?
