What are you trying to do when you debate against people denouncing your beliefs?

[Jim]

I started wondering about this just now when I was writing a post. There might be many different answers. Sometimes it might be just for the challenge of it or for social interaction. Sometimes when I’m tempted to do it, it’s just to test some ideas to see how well they will float or fly, maybe like experimenting with paper airplanes. Maybe sometimes it’s to help strengthen the beliefs of other people who believe the same way? Maybe sometimes people think that it’s a way of telling people something they might need or want to know? Maybe sometimes people are trying to prove that they aren’t wrong? Prove it to whom?

 

[Sunstone]

Based on what I have seen of folks on this Forum, my guess is people are for the most part trying to take out their anger and frustration at being disagreed with. Not everyone, but most everyone.

Humans seem to have a genetically-based revulsion to having their core beliefs contradicted. One wonders how such a thing might have evolved in us. However, from the neurosciences we learn that the part of the brain that decides whether something is true or false lies in close proximity to the part of the brain that detects spoiled food. No wonder folks can feel nauseated by opinions they perceive as false!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I really can not say there is any preconceived intention.

If I was to think of a reason why I stay on RF and offer a reply to such a response, it may be to offer an elixer, offer a remedy to those that give such a response. It may be they give such a response as their soul is searching for an elixer or remedy, even if they are not aware that may be so.

Or, maybe it is better said, it is to offer the opportunity to see the topic with a different frame of reference, yes that is a better way of saying it.

In the end, if it turns to arguments, RF is a great place to practice not participating in arguing.

It is a fine line when it it turns from Debate/discussion and into argument, it may only be one post too many.

Regards Tony

 

[Skwim]

What are you trying to do when you debate against people denouncing your beliefs?

Typically I don't debate them, but simply explain where they may have gotten it wrong. After that they can believe and do whatever they like.

.

 

[Terry Sampson]

"What are you trying to do when you debate against people denouncing your beliefs?"

"Pissing into the wind" comes to mind.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Well if a person is sincere about finding the actual truth of things and or the actual truth of the matter, I can't think of a better way than through the crucible of debate.

 

[osgart]

I admit I have boldly said things I would never say outside of a forum.

At times I forget that people are debating, and I will offer up my thoughts as if it were a discussion. Bad mistake!

Debating is sporty though isn't it. Winning championship points to make a fool of the other side!

I also admit I do RF on a single tapper iPhone.

 

[Jim]

Now I remember something that I forgot. I see beliefs as defensive or belligerent attachment to some views. It’s the defensiveness or belligerence associated with a view that makes it a belief. Then obviously, by definition, a person will want to try to defend their beliefs when they see people denouncing them. I’m still interested in what people think they’re trying to do, when they do that.

 

[osgart]

Now I remember something that I forgot. I see beliefs as defensive or belligerent attachment to some views. It’s the defensiveness or belligerence associated with a view that makes it a belief. Then obviously, by definition, a person will want to try to defend their beliefs when they see people denouncing them. I’m still interested in what people think they’re trying to do, when they do that.

Are beliefs really that bad though?. I believe in virtue, and the application of virtues to one's life. I believe that humans are possesors of qualities and that we can instill in ourselves what is objectively good. I find that is better than seeing myself as an ever-changing vaporous being. I desire an anchor for my life.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"What are you trying to do when you debate against people denouncing your beliefs?":
Check your own beliefs.
Matthew 7:3-5 New International Version (NIV)
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

 

[Jim]

Are beliefs really that bad though?. I believe in virtue, and the application of virtues to one's life. I believe that humans are possesors of qualities and that we can instill in ourselves what is objectively good. I find that is better than seeing myself as an ever-changing vaporous being. I desire an anchor for my life.

Maybe what I’m saying doesn’t apply to all beliefs. I’m talking about ways of thinking that are important to a person to think of as being true or right, especially when it’s important to them for other people to think the same way. That’s usually how people feel about what they think they know from scriptures or from science.

 

[Jim]

"What are you trying to do when you debate against people denouncing your beliefs?":
Check your own beliefs.
Matthew 7:3-5 New International Version (NIV)
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

And ...? Your point is ...?

 

[osgart]

Maybe what I’m saying doesn’t apply to all beliefs. I’m talking about ways of thinking that are important to a person to think of as being true or right, especially when it’s important to them for other people to think the same way. That’s usually how people feel about what they think they know from scriptures or from science.

Science has so many specialized fields that I couldn't possibly know what they know the way that they know it. And often I don't want to jump all in on what somebody says on here.

Unreal expectations it sounds like to me. How could you possibly not know or think the way you are supposed to is how it comes across.

I can't help but be wary of foolproof righteous people on either side myself.
I don't know, is there a Science Bible out there that I should have read?

 

[Jim]

Well if a person is sincere about finding the actual truth of things and or the actual truth of the matter, I can't think of a better way than through the crucible of debate.

Did you mean for that to be an answer to my question? When you debate against people denouncing your beliefs, you’re trying to find the actual truth of things and/or the actual truth of the matter, not thinking that you already know?

 

[Jim]

Science has so many specialized fields that I couldn't possibly know what they know the way that they know it. And often I don't want to jump all in on what somebody says on here.

Unreal expectations it sounds like to me. How could you possibly not know or think the way you are supposed to is how it comes across.

I can't help but be wary of foolproof righteous people on either side myself.
I don't know, is there a Science Bible out there that I should have read?

I’m really confused about what you’re trying to say. Could you try saying it again, a different way?

 

[Jim]

"What are you trying to do when you debate against people denouncing your beliefs?":
Check your own beliefs.
Matthew 7:3-5 New International Version (NIV)
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Maybe you think that I’m not paying any attention to the plank in my eye? And you think that my question is about a mote in some other people’s eyes?

 

[osgart]

I’m really confused about what you’re trying to say. Could you try saying it again, a different way?

Well, let me see. Do you think all this denouncing going on is productive, or healthy?

All I am saying is that each side of religion vs. science feels that they have foolproof ways.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I started wondering about this just now when I was writing a post. There might be many different answers. Sometimes it might be just for the challenge of it or for social interaction. Sometimes when I’m tempted to do it, it’s just to test some ideas to see how well they will float or fly, maybe like experimenting with paper airplanes. Maybe sometimes it’s to help strengthen the beliefs of other people who believe the same way? Maybe sometimes people think that it’s a way of telling people something they might need or want to know? Maybe sometimes people are trying to prove that they aren’t wrong? Prove it to whom?

They try to prove it to themselves, not to me

 

[Jim]

Science has so many specialized fields that I couldn't possibly know what they know the way that they know it. And often I don't want to jump all in on what somebody says on here.

Unreal expectations it sounds like to me. How could you possibly not know or think the way you are supposed to is how it comes across.

I can't help but be wary of foolproof righteous people on either side myself.
I don't know, is there a Science Bible out there that I should have read?

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. My idea was that it’s a natural impulse for people to want to defend their beliefs when they’re being denounced, but that doesn’t always mean that they’ll know what they’re trying to do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

... is there a Science Bible out there that I should have read?

Anything that becomes Bible is no more science.
That means all books considered as scriptures. Once they become Bibles, they are useless. Buddha said to Kalamas in Kesamutti Sutta* (Kalama Sutta):
* Kesamutti (Skt: Kesha-mukti) means that you are no more held by your hair. These are our fetters.
"Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing (anussava), nor upon tradition (paramparā), nor upon rumor (itikirā), nor upon what is in a scripture (piṭaka-sampadāna), nor upon surmise (takka-hetu), nor upon an axiom (naya-hetu), nor upon specious reasoning (ākāra-parivitakka), nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over (diṭṭhi-nijjhān-akkh-antiyā), nor upon another's seeming ability (bhabba-rūpatāya), nor upon the consideration, The monk is our teacher (samaṇo no garū)."

Then, such beliefs hold us by our hair.