Looking for meaningful conversations

[RabbiO]

Welcome to the forum.

As to meaningful conversations, well, you’ll have to decide whether your interactions here fit your definition!

 

[Ebionite]

I'm nearing the end of the first part, with the conclusion that it is probable that God exists, and that faith can be rationale. Definitely not what I thought the conclusion was, but it's where the research is leading.

"In the beginning was the logos"

Hello and welcome.

 

[Deeje]

@amatuerscholar LOL...spellcheck is your friend.

Welcome to the madhouse.

Just wondering if you view "theology" as something that Jesus taught? Do we need a degree in theology to understand and practice his teachings?

I learned more from the Bible itself than I ever learned from a man with a degree in theology....just sayin'.....

 

[Windwalker]

A bit about me. I grew up in a fundamentalist house, where I was groomed to be a minister. At 18, I was ordained, but the church I was at really had fallen a part and new leadership was brought in, so I was out.

I rebelled, and converted to Judaism. I also toyed around a bit with Islam, and converted for a short while to it, before becoming a militant atheist. I can assure you I was incredibly annoying.

But then I met my wife, and started going back to church. I became more agnostic, and eventually agnostic theist. I ended up going to college for Religious Studies and History, while minoring in Greek and Classics. I did that in a roundabout way as when I was getting my associates, I couldn't really make my mind up. I studied psychology, criminal justice, secondary education, and literature. I spent way too much time getting my associates. But that led me to a Bachelors program, that I also spent way too much time on.

Now I'm beginning to pursue a Master's in Theology. I had a chance to go about it in a unique manner, but currently I'm working on a large argument in regards to the existence of God. The assignment was to create an argument about God, whether God exists or not, and if God does exist, about God's morality and it's connection with us. It's a lot to take on, but the point was to push me.

I'm nearing the end of the first part, with the conclusion that it is probable that God exists, and that faith can be rationale. Definitely not what I thought the conclusion was, but it's where the research is leading.

Other than that, I'm married, and have 3 kids. My middle child, when he was 2, was diagnosed with cancer, but is now cancer free. We still have regular CT scans, but they have been clear so far. My oldest son loves reading and sports. Then my youngest son is now just 2 and is a terror. But he makes our family very happy as well.

Nice to meet you. I look forward to some conversations and learning more of your thoughts.

 

[amatuerscholar]

The background to my question was my thought that to say that God exists and to bring in morality brings up the question of God's nature. Is God immanent or transcendent or both transcending the duality of immanence and transcendence?

Christians typically have one frame-of-reference to address this although, of course, some might focus on "I am that I am" and reflect that God's nature is beyond the rational mind.

Morality also necessarily involves a view. If one sees the duality of God being separate from humans, then morality has one path. If the view is that we are all God but are, as it were, dreaming, then that casts a different light on the question.

And a belief in reincarnation and karma (sowing and reaping) changes how might view pain and pleasure in any given life and thus reflect on morality as a topic.

I'm more of a panentheist, which I think helps sum up a lot of problems. With that, I see God as being self-limiting, in that God is all powerful, but in order for humans to have any power, to be humans, God has to take a step back. This is an idea I'm working more through though as it works in some cases, but when placed in the context of the Holocaust, there arises other problems.

Welcome

Just wondering, since you seem to have been a bit all over the place, did you ever consider yourself a true believer in any of them or did you always have doubt? Or what made you change from lets say Judaism to Islam? And especially what made you change from militant atheist back to a theist? Because it seems like you are going from one extreme to another or maybe just a good amount of the way, so to speak?

The reason I ask is because im an atheist my self, but do not consider my self a militant one or being part of the new atheism tendency, which are actively trying to stop religion. Im probably somewhere between, so it just seems like you went on a huge rollercoaster ride, can you expand on that?

Growing up, I was a very devout believer in fundamentalism Christianity. What changed that was the movie Stigmata, which introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. When I started questioning that, I was told that I needed to stop or I was going to hell. That didn't sit right with me, and I started looking elsewhere as I still had faith in God. I converted to Judaism as it's part of my heritage, so it was a way to connect with that, but also because I met a Rabbi who really helped me work through my questions and thoughts about God. But looking back now, it was simply too late. I was already really loosing faith and part of that was just rebelling against my parents.

As for what brought me from being a militant atheist to a theist really was researching the historical Jesus. As a militant atheist, I was convinced of the Christ-myth theory. But as I continued researching it, I started reading the views of historians, and of various scholars, and I couldn't justify my acceptance of the Jesus-myth idea, which made me question other ideas that I had. Mainly though, it helped strip away some of my anger, and pushed me to be more open.

@amatuerscholar LOL...spellcheck is your friend.

Welcome to the madhouse.

Just wondering if you view "theology" as something that Jesus taught? Do we need a degree in theology to understand and practice his teachings?

I learned more from the Bible itself than I ever learned from a man with a degree in theology....just sayin'.....

I view theology as the complete study of God or gods. So while it does look at what Jesus taught, it goes beyond that. Part of it is how to read the Bible and place it in a historical context. How others interpreted various verses. It tackles ethical and moral issues. So I see it as much more.

 

[Windwalker]

I'm more of a panentheist, which I think helps sum up a lot of problems. With that, I see God as being self-limiting, in that God is all powerful, but in order for humans to have any power, to be humans, God has to take a step back. This is an idea I'm working more through though as it works in some cases, but when placed in the context of the Holocaust, there arises other problems.



Growing up, I was a very devout believer in fundamentalism Christianity. What changed that was the movie Stigmata, which introduced me to the Gospel of Thomas. When I started questioning that, I was told that I needed to stop or I was going to hell. That didn't sit right with me, and I started looking elsewhere as I still had faith in God. I converted to Judaism as it's part of my heritage, so it was a way to connect with that, but also because I met a Rabbi who really helped me work through my questions and thoughts about God. But looking back now, it was simply too late. I was already really loosing faith and part of that was just rebelling against my parents.

As for what brought me from being a militant atheist to a theist really was researching the historical Jesus. As a militant atheist, I was convinced of the Christ-myth theory. But as I continued researching it, I started reading the views of historians, and of various scholars, and I couldn't justify my acceptance of the Jesus-myth idea, which made me question other ideas that I had. Mainly though, it helped strip away some of my anger, and pushed me to be more open.





I view theology as the complete study of God or gods. So while it does look at what Jesus taught, it goes beyond that. Part of it is how to read the Bible and place it in a historical context. How others interpreted various verses. It tackles ethical and moral issues. So I see it as much more.

Very interesting stuff. I read some of your blog on your website as well. I think you and I have may have some common thoughts about these thing. I've recently been reading works by John Dominic Crossan that have helped put things into a more reasoned discussion about the historical Jesus. I agree, while it's hard to read the gospel accounts as literal history (which is not their purpose), it's another thing to glibly claim it's just made up out of whole cloth. There is just too much detail there that can been seen, to imagine this is nothing but pure fantasy. Too many things line up, when examined from a cross-disciplinary perspective.

I also draw from those like James Fowler and other developmentalist looks at stages of faith, and how that mythic-literal thought is an earlier stage of faith. What it sounds like to me, and where we probably share more in common than not, is you have moved through stage 4 faith, the Individuative/Reflective stage, which is able to deconstruct meaning from myth, and are moving into Stage 5 faith, Conjunctive faith, where one rescues the baby from the bathwater, so to speak, using Fowler's models. That's pretty much where I've been at for awhile now.

If you're interested, I attempted a thread to open discussion beyond mythic-literal faith, drawing off some of Crossan's thoughts. I found them quite revealing, and true, looking at the "Biblical Heartbeat" as he calls it: How to Read the Bible, and Still be a Christian

 

[Deeje]

I view theology as the complete study of God or gods. So while it does look at what Jesus taught, it goes beyond that.

From the beginning of man's history, there has always been "God"....later developing into "gods" and ways to appease them, so there is no denying the spiritual nature of man, but his unbridled excursions into matters of faith, have not led the human race into anything but conflict and confusion. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on why, if there is a God who is the Creator of all things, he would permit this situation to take place?

Part of it is how to read the Bible and place it in a historical context. How others interpreted various verses. It tackles ethical and moral issues. So I see it as much more.

I have researched a lot of these issues online rather than going to any formal education facility, which to me often creates its own problems when denomination plays a role in how the scriptures are interpreted and taught in those facilities. There are as many points of view as there are scholars, so who is to say who has the correct handle on any of these things? The truth IMO is not subject to popularity or human interpretation. There is one truth, and I believe that the Creator is the only one who can guide a person (having read their hearts) to that truth. (John 6:44; 65)

Faith IMO is not necessarily the product of an intelligent mind, (atheists see faith as completely irrational) it is the product of one's spirituality....their heart....which can be expressed in extremes in both directions, and everything in between....so I see Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 to have application in this. Everything that is not truth is a personal 'delusion'......but one that God permits, so that our (free willed) choices tell him everything he needs to know about us. He allows us to keep our delusions (no matter how sincerely they are held) if he sees no potential in us for change.

I am a bit of a research junkie as I consider myself a perpetual student of the Bible.....a course from which I will never graduate....(as if I could ever know it all.) Degrees mean nothing to God...only to men. Looking back at the attitude of the Pharisees in Jesus' day we see a similar attitude today, as if being educated and earning a degree means that we must know more than anyone else.....nothing has changed really. Elitism is nothing new, especially in religion.
Jesus and his apostles were not "educated" in the rabbinical schools and were regarded as 'uneducated' and in no position to preach or teach others anything about God and his purpose...especially about this false Messiah, Jesus....

I will be interested in your opinions on a range of topics, and how you came to your conclusions.....I hope you find some challenges and some food for thought on these forums.

I came here with a swag....graduated to a tent, then a caravan and now I'm considering building a small cabin....it's basically my second home.

 

[sparcz1978]

Many people Still want to see Proof or Evidence that God Exist...
If Their is no Proof there is no God?

If someone Tell you something as a Proof... there is another Question...

why we waste our time to Proved that There is God or there is no God Exist?

Try to Live your life without God in your Heart... you can only recognize him after Death.. or not at all...

and if you ask about God Existence look at the Mirror and ask your self How do you Exist?


Thanks God that Your Middle child are free of Cancer.