For Noahides or any in Judaism

[Jeremiah Ames]

In my reading of my Bible, a question has arisen which I think can best be answered by someone in Judaism or Noahidism.

Forgive my errors or misunderstandings.

Hopefully they will not have an affect on my thread.


(I am assuming Noahides utilize the Torah. (Since Noah is mentioned there))

Something recently came to my attention.

I was noticing that wine is mentioned quite often, and I thought that there was no wine or grapes in the Garden of Eden, so I checked and confirmed that. Then I decided to check where wine, or grapes, or vineyard is first mentioned. And I discovered it was with Noah.

I found this to be interesting, because the very first thing that Noah does (written about) after leaving the ark, is to plant a vineyard, make wine, and get drunk.

That does seem a bit odd, and raises many questions. Where did the vines come from? How did he know how to make wine? Why get drunk? Why mention it in the Torah?

You can give me some insight regarding the above if you want to, but my question is this: does wine have some special meaning or special purpose?


The following is more of a bonus type question. If you don’t know or follow anything related to Jesus, just ignore it because the question above is of most interest to me.

I was looking in the writings related to Jesus regarding wine, and noticed that His first miracle was turning water into wine. And this was so it could be used at a wedding party, where the guests had already been given plenty of wine. It seems to me like an odd choice for a miracle, but then I admit I don’t know much. Do you think there is some connection between these two events?

Thanks much in advance. I’m just trying to learn and understand more.

 

[rosends]

There are plenty of commentaries on this event. The commentator Rabbi Shlomo the Son of Yitzchak wrote

ויחל [AND NOAH] BEGAN — (The word may be connected also with a root meaning “profane”) He profaned (degraded) himself, for he should have occupied himself first with planting something different) (Genesis Rabbah 36:3).

ויטע כרם AND HE PLANTED A VINEYARD — When he went into the Ark he had taken with him vine-branches and shoots of fig trees (Genesis Rabbah 36:3).
-------------

Nachmanides explains

Noach … planted a vineyard. While earlier generations had planted grapevines, Noach, motivated by his desire for wine, was the first to plant an entire vineyard.
----------
Ovadia ben Jacob Sforno wrote

Noach began. Since his first undertaking was an unworthy one it led to disgraceful consequences, illustrating that a small flaw at the outset of an endeavor leads to a large one in the end.
----------
The Baal Haturim states that the stems came from the Garden of Eden.

There are plenty of other commentators who have things to say here.

 

[Tumah]

According to one Talmudic opinion, the Tree of Knowledge was actually a grape vine.

The Christian sub would be a better place to ask philosophical or theological questions about Jesus. Most of us don't even believe that the NT depicts actual events.

 

[Harel13]

Why get drunk? Why mention it in the Torah?

I heard once - no sources at the moment - that he was depressed with the state of the world: almost everyone he knew - and considering that not too many generations passed from creation, he probably knew a large percentage of the world's population - was now gone, dead in a terrible punishment. So he drank to provide some relief (instead of doing what God commanded him, which was re-populate the world).

 

[dybmh]

does wine have some special meaning or special purpose?

"When wine enters, secrets are revealed". (Eruvin 65a)

Wine [in Hebrew "yayin"] comes from a hidden place; therefore its numerical value is 70, which is the same as the word "secret" [in Hebrew, "sod"]. (Chidushei Aggadah, Sanhedrin)

( source )

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

There are plenty of commentaries on this event. The commentator Rabbi Shlomo the Son of Yitzchak wrote

ויחל [AND NOAH] BEGAN — (The word may be connected also with a root meaning “profane”) He profaned (degraded) himself, for he should have occupied himself first with planting something different) (Genesis Rabbah 36:3).

ויטע כרם AND HE PLANTED A VINEYARD — When he went into the Ark he had taken with him vine-branches and shoots of fig trees (Genesis Rabbah 36:3).
-------------

Nachmanides explains

Noach … planted a vineyard. While earlier generations had planted grapevines, Noach, motivated by his desire for wine, was the first to plant an entire vineyard.
----------
Ovadia ben Jacob Sforno wrote

Noach began. Since his first undertaking was an unworthy one it led to disgraceful consequences, illustrating that a small flaw at the outset of an endeavor leads to a large one in the end.
----------
The Baal Haturim states that the stems came from the Garden of Eden.

There are plenty of other commentators who have things to say here.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response.

 

[Jake1001]

In my reading of my Bible, a question has arisen which I think can best be answered by someone in Judaism or Noahidism.

Forgive my errors or misunderstandings.

Hopefully they will not have an affect on my thread.


(I am assuming Noahides utilize the Torah. (Since Noah is mentioned there))

Something recently came to my attention.

I was noticing that wine is mentioned quite often, and I thought that there was no wine or grapes in the Garden of Eden, so I checked and confirmed that. Then I decided to check where wine, or grapes, or vineyard is first mentioned. And I discovered it was with Noah.

I found this to be interesting, because the very first thing that Noah does (written about) after leaving the ark, is to plant a vineyard, make wine, and get drunk.

That does seem a bit odd, and raises many questions. Where did the vines come from? How did he know how to make wine? Why get drunk? Why mention it in the Torah?

You can give me some insight regarding the above if you want to, but my question is this: does wine have some special meaning or special purpose?


The following is more of a bonus type question. If you don’t know or follow anything related to Jesus, just ignore it because the question above is of most interest to me.

I was looking in the writings related to Jesus regarding wine, and noticed that His first miracle was turning water into wine. And this was so it could be used at a wedding party, where the guests had already been given plenty of wine. It seems to me like an odd choice for a miracle, but then I admit I don’t know much. Do you think there is some connection between these two events?

Thanks much in advance. I’m just trying to learn and understand more.

Thank you, Gerry, this is one of the puzzles of Torah and I defer to RabbiO to provide the answer.

I will just say Noah did worse than just get drunk!!

In my view, the Noah wine incident is a great backdrop for “Mothers Against Drunk Driving” !! Anyone agree ??

 

[Jake1001]

Most of us don't even believe that the NT depicts actual events.

While likely true for OJ’s, I would say RJ’s are more open to historical archeological and anthropological fact.

Agreed @dyb?

 

[Rival]

I will just say Noah did worse than just get drunk!!

What in your opinion did he do?

 

[Jake1001]

What in your opinion did he do?

Lots of rumors, but lets say, sex, drugs and rock’n’roll!!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was noticing that wine is mentioned quite often, and I thought that there was no wine or grapes in the Garden of Eden, so I checked and confirmed that.

Seriously. How did you manage to confirm such a thing?

Parenthetically, in Legends of the Jews; the Creation of the World (by Louis Ginzberg) we read about "four rivers, one of milk, the other of balsam, the third of wine, and the fourth of honey."

 

[dybmh]

Seriously. How did you manage to confirm such a thing?

Parenthetically, in Legends of the Jews; the Creation of the World (by Louis Ginzberg) we read about "four rivers, one of milk, the other of balsam, the third of wine, and the fourth of honey."

Where's the super-duper useful frube when you need one...

I'll just go with winner.

 

[dybmh]

four rivers, one of milk, the other of balsam, the third of wine, and the fourth of honey

Here's a fun riddle... why honey in this story? but not honey post-this-story?

The answer is in the mishnah.