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To those who do not believe in spiritual beings (Gods, Buddhas and so on)

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
There are several possible answers to that.

First, I did not claim to be able to explain the sensation of purple to a blind person. I said I can make that blind person understand that there is a property that is being consistently described by those claiming to see.

So, for example, I can have a variety of objects. the blind person could verify some of their characteristics by touch. Then sighted people can come in, one-by-one and describe that object. That they give consistent descriptions independently of each other would be evidence for the blind person that the colors mentioned are actual properties that sighted people can detect and the blind person not.

Alternatively, a blind person could use a prism to separate out the different wavelengths of light and verify that a certain range of wavelengths is consistently described as 'purple' by people who are sighted. This can be done in a way very similar to how we can detect and verify the properties of infrared light. We can verify, for example, that bees see some ultraviolet and the range of frequencies of light they can see even if we cannot see them ourselves.

Once again, my claim is that I can convince a blind person that there is an actual property that sighted people detect, since they *do so in a consistent way*. At no point do they actually have to experience color themselves to know that it exists and what its properties are.

Thank you for elaborating.

Then you are in agreement that unless one experiences the color purple for themselves, the experience is subject to someone else's perspective and/or experience.
 

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
Human beings are full of karma, how could we be fully spiritual beings or supernatural beings when we carry so much karmic substance?

As I was taught in the context of Mahamudra - enlightened mind is the coemergence of nirvana and samsara.

You have an idealized image of spiritual beings IMO.
Be aware that your mind will follow the thoughts you persevere in. If you imagine spiritual beings, you will have ‘experiences’ of spiritual beings.

Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?

I would expect to see or hear what I expect to see or hear.
In fact I did. It was interesting.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for elaborating.

Then you are in agreement that unless one experiences the color purple for themselves, the experience is subject to someone else's perspective.

All experiences of other people is always subject to someone else's perspective. But the perspective of others can also be faulty (as can my own). So I am concerned about the consistency, especially in the face of independent observers, to determine if the phenomenon is real and what it actually refers to. Many times people can misinterpret their experiences (visual illusions are a good example of the problem), so that is another source of my skepticism about some classes of experience.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
May it be that you are just not able to see or hear the supernatural beings that are called Gods, Buddhas, and so on? Maybe you just look at it the wrong way? or your spiritual vision is not tuned to the right frequency? Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?

I've never believed in gods, buddhas, deities, and so forth. So, I don't know what I'd expect to see with these things.

Which is ironic because I do know spirits of loved ones exist and spirits of people in general. Belief is an interesting word because I can believe that I can fly and maybe it will help me in my life, but that does not make it true. The thing is: what is wrong with that?

Anyway. I don't know what makes us see the supernatural if you mean deity.

1. Skepticism: Pretty much based on what we are told the supernatural is "supposed" to be like. Consciousness/mysticism/god/spirit/so have you and not what one experiences him or herself. So, if you don't believe in what I listed, you don't believe in the supernatural hence an atheist.

2. Disinterest: Millions of people love mystery, why does that mean the rest of the population needs to? Is it a fault that the minority of disinterested parties are some how missing out on something?

3. Limited definitions: God is christian god. (What about pagan? Hindu? Pantheist? I don't know. Witchcraft?) Kind of like saying, I don't like chocolate cake, therefore I don't like cake at all.

I never had a "spiritual" experience. I've had spirit-ual experiences which were pretty concrete but nothing abstract like the workings of the cosmos, auras, and things like that. No "higher power". Deceased ancestors spirits is exactly what/who they are. Not higher. Not lower. Not mystical. Why does it need to be all that to be functioning and relating in everyday reality? What earns supernatural our special attention?

4. Misguided criteria. God is a person in the sky. So, if I don't see and hear this person, god does not exist. Not minding that the god they speak of is not the god abrahamics speak of and definitely not the gods other religious speak of.

5. Assuming all abrahamics define god the same way
Some UUs are christian and they explain god in one way.
JW explain god one way and some protestants have interesting ways to explain god that isn't quite deified as one would think of Zues and Apollo.

6. Miscategorization: Buddhas, Christian God, and Pagan gods are totally different context, content, and definition. One would need to be more specific? Which is kind of hard since abrahamics have different versions of god and his edicts.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
May it be that you are just not able to see or hear the supernatural beings that are called Gods, Buddhas, and so on? Maybe you just look at it the wrong way? or your spiritual vision is not tuned to the right frequency? Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?

First you'd have to tell me how you are defining a god or a spiritual being. After that if I still don't see or hear your god or spiritual being you would then have to tell me what was wrong with how I am looking at it and what the proper way of looking at it would be in order for me to see or hear your god or spiritual being.

When I've done this with people in the past the thing I am most often told that I'm doing wrong is that I lack faith. In order to do it properly I'm supposed to somehow FIRST have faith that it is true and THEN I'll be provided with evidence that my faith wasn't misplaced. However, I am simply not capable of accepting any claim of significance on mere faith.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
To me belief is not the main part of spiritual life, but a part of it as a basis for further understanding of the wisdom that arise through spiritual practice, and practice it every day. And when wisdom about spiritual realm arise this is the moment we can "see" the spiritual beings. , but we do not see them with our physical eyes, we can see because spiritual eye (third eye) has opened, this is why some spiritual practicing people can see god as they say, but an atheist with no wisdom eye open can not see, it all come from practicing the teachings
Is any sort of belief in a higher power necessary for spirituality? I don't think so. But then the concept of a "spiritual realm" as any thing in reality does not seem to be reasonable to me.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
May it be that you are just not able to see or hear the supernatural beings that are called Gods, Buddhas, and so on? Maybe you just look at it the wrong way? or your spiritual vision is not tuned to the right frequency? Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?

As far as I know, "Buddha" never claimed to be a god, and I don't know of anyone who believes in multiple Buddhas.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I'm not quite there on spiritual beings. I think of the eternal as a mental/emotional force that produces life forms from it's unknowable substance. I suppose this force has an ultimate source in spiritual beings. But I do not see how.

Speak the language of the universe, and all its mental constructs. Reveal the modus operandi of the program we are in. Then I'll know instead of wonder.

You would have to uncover what exists beyond our universe.
 

Howard Is

Lucky Mud
As far as I know, "Buddha" never claimed to be a god, and I don't know of anyone who believes in multiple Buddhas.

There are various offshoots of Buddhism that do assert he is a god, or the god. That is to be expected, given human nature.

Regarding multiple Buddhas, anyone who realises what Gautama realised is a Buddha, by definition.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
May it be that you are just not able to see or hear the supernatural beings that are called Gods, Buddhas, and so on? Maybe you just look at it the wrong way? or your spiritual vision is not tuned to the right frequency? Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?
What reason do I have to think that this is possible?

The alternate possibility - i.e. that people who claim to have experienced these things are just deluded - also agrees with the facts and it already works within my current paradigm.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
May it be that you are just not able to see or hear the supernatural beings that are called Gods, Buddhas, and so on? Maybe you just look at it the wrong way? or your spiritual vision is not tuned to the right frequency? Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?
Maybe it's because we don't live in a world of delusion and understand that these spiritual creatures are archetypal in structure, egregores/thoughtforms and that they are experienced because the brain interacts between the cortex, hypothalamus, hippocampus, amygdala and the limbic system. Parietal Lobe disinhibition can result in altered senses of the body in space, and dissolution of the sense of self. The Temporal lobes are involved in visual processing that creates vivid 3D representations (allows us to design the spiritual creatures we are seeking). Agency allows for the perception that such a spiritual creature is actually acting on its own accord.

i.e. God is a fictional character in a book. Our right temporal lobe and the associated limbic lobe is the hub of the 'god' experience, a designed divine agency.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
May it be that you are just not able to see or hear the supernatural beings that are called Gods, Buddhas, and so on? Maybe you just look at it the wrong way? or your spiritual vision is not tuned to the right frequency? Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?
I've always been adamant that it will take a God to know a God.

Not a human being to know a God.

So far, everything points to God being a mental puppet. An extension of its master pulling its strings and making it say or do whatever a person wants it to.


 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I have no wish to prove you wrong or right, i just trying to understand how none believers think, and why they always want to debunk believers.
There can be multiple reasons for that.
1. With the claim of spiritual beings often comes a demand of exceptional treatment, When, for example, YEC demand that their stories are taught in science class, even though they didn't go through the usual process of scientific theory building. In those cases the sceptic works as a consumer protector. He warns about a potential fraud who wants to extract resources from an audience (even though that resource may be just attention).
This is a public service.
2. When someone introduces a (new) idea of seeing things, a hypothesis, a belief (system), s/he implicitly asks for a discussion of that idea. We give our valuable input.
That is a personal service.

We are here to serve and protect, tirelessly, unpaid and sometimes unloved.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
May it be that you are just not able to see or hear the supernatural beings that are called Gods, Buddhas, and so on? Maybe you just look at it the wrong way? or your spiritual vision is not tuned to the right frequency? Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?

This expectation of fallible humans is a stretch. I believe in God, but I do not expect God to talk to nor tell me personally anything. Too many people from diverse conflicting beliefs claim God talks to to them and they believe in the one true God. God reveals the attributes of God through the universal nature of our physical existence and humanity. The evidence indicates an evolving spiritual nature of humanity as it reflects in the evolving physical nature of our physical existence. This harmony and unity of the universal nature of God's Creation is the only rational conclusion for the existence of God. The evidence indicates that the many diverse conflicting views of God is to a large degree the human perspective and burdened by ancient cultures.

I have empathy for the agnostic and atheist worldviews when faced with the conflicting out of touch diversity of ancient cultural view of the 'Source' some call God(s). They are far more reasonable than ancient worldviews clinging ancient views of our existence.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
First you'd have to tell me how you are defining a god or a spiritual being. After that if I still don't see or hear your god or spiritual being you would then have to tell me what was wrong with how I am looking at it and what the proper way of looking at it would be in order for me to see or hear your god or spiritual being.

When I've done this with people in the past the thing I am most often told that I'm doing wrong is that I lack faith. In order to do it properly I'm supposed to somehow FIRST have faith that it is true and THEN I'll be provided with evidence that my faith wasn't misplaced. However, I am simply not capable of accepting any claim of significance on mere faith.
Faith is only the beginning that some "need" to be able to see, whereas Wisdom of the spiritual realm is something we cultivate over time :)
 

Ayjaydee

Active Member
May it be that you are just not able to see or hear the supernatural beings that are called Gods, Buddhas, and so on? Maybe you just look at it the wrong way? or your spiritual vision is not tuned to the right frequency? Would it be possible for you to explain what you expect to see or hear to get your proof of an existence of God or other spiritual beings?
Buddha was not supernatural, he was a man
 
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