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whats your beef with brexit?

But we were promised golden uplands and flying unicorns when we left during the referendum. It is only fair that those who have delivered it are held to account.
"Wait and see" appears to be a very poor second.

We were also told that Brexiteers wanted to kick out the nurses, people would be dropping dead in the streets when their insulin ran out and the UK was on a fast track to becoming a 3rd world country.

It's almost like many people just make up stuff that supports their own ideological agenda.

If you find it entertaining to partake in tit-for-tat point scoring on statements that were clearly not going to turn out to be true when they were made, fair enough.

You understand that something like this can only be judged in the long run though, and that demanding instant results is just part of the partisan games that increasingly replace rational discussion on contemporary political issues.

Stuff like increased democracy is very general - especially when our government refuses to be interviewed apart from by tame reporters.
Decentralisation - if it happens - will be good, as a northerner it is desperately needed. But as Whitehall controls our spending, and is holding up investment, it is certainly not happening yet.
If we want to trade with the EU we will have to meet their standards, we used to be able to influence those standards, now we just accept them or do not trade - a vassal state we have become.

If the EU moved in a political direction you didn't like, you might not see the power to hold it to account as being so trivial.

If decentralisation would be good, why do you also support centralisation via the EU?

If we want to trade with the EU we will have to meet their standards, we used to be able to influence those standards, now we just accept them or do not trade - a vassal state we have become.

If a win-win solution can't be agreed it's an inditement on both sides. Britain runs a massive trade deficit with the EU, if they choose to cut off their nose to spite their face there are at least some benefits to the UK.

No idea what the overall long-term effects would be though, but then again nobody else does either.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Our Matthew : I would choose Putin over Juncker.
And it is true. Putin is ten times more loved here in Itsly than any EU technocrat


 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
We were also told that Brexiteers wanted to kick out the nurses,

Whether its brexiters or the trepidation if brexit, nurses and other medical staff have been leaving the NHS and Britain. The NHS is now not only grossly underfunded it is dangerously under staffed.

I have noticed that since late November the NHS has been tv advertising for trainee nurses. Interesting timing considering it takes at least 2 years to train a nurse.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Britain runs a massive trade deficit with the EU, if they choose to cut off their nose to spite their face there are at least some benefits to the UK.

As i understand it approximately 75% of UK exports are destined for the EU. I see no benefit in loosing that trade

Imports are mostly foodstuffs, again, there can be little benefit in stopping that trade either
 
Whether its brexiters or the trepidation if brexit, nurses and other medical staff have been leaving the NHS and Britain. The NHS is now not only grossly underfunded it is dangerously under staffed.

I have noticed that since late November the NHS has been tv advertising for trainee nurses. Interesting timing considering it takes at least 2 years to train a nurse.

Can always hire them from non-EU countries. That might even become easier outside the EU, although I can't say I know a great deal about the technicalities in this regard.

As long as the wages are much higher than in most countries, there will always be nurses willing to fill the vacancies.

As i understand it approximately 75% of UK exports are destined for the EU. I see no benefit in loosing that trade

Imports are mostly foodstuffs, again, there can be little benefit in stopping that trade either

It's mostly manufactured goods, not food. Anyway, you don't 'lose'/'stop' that trade, it just becomes a bit less competitive.

All we can do is wait and see what happens as nobody has a clue what the impact will be as there are still far too many unknowns, and humans suck at making predictions on complex issues.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Can always hire them from non-EU countries. That might even become easier outside the EU, although I can't say I know a great deal about the technicalities in this regard.

As long as the wages are much higher than in most countries, there will always be nurses willing to fill the vacancies.

So the advertising on UK TV is a waste of money.

There are not that many countries outside the EU where nursing standards are comparable and they tend to value the nursing profession and pay a wage relative to the skill. The funding in the UK will not allow the NHS to complete. No doubt why one never sees American, Canadian or Japanese nurses clamouring to work in Britain.


It's mostly manufactured goods, not food. Anyway, you don't 'lose'/'stop' that trade, it just becomes a bit less competitive.

All we can do is wait and see what happens as nobody has a clue what the impact will be as there are still far too many unknowns, and humans suck at making predictions on complex issues.

My mistake, i should have written 'imports include foodstuffs' which is why supermarkets are stockpiling

I just hope the deal goes through without a hitch.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
We were also told that Brexiteers wanted to kick out the nurses, people would be dropping dead in the streets when their insulin ran out and the UK was on a fast track to becoming a 3rd world country.

It's almost like many people just make up stuff that supports their own ideological agenda.

If you find it entertaining to partake in tit-for-tat point scoring on statements that were clearly not going to turn out to be true when they were made, fair enough.

You understand that something like this can only be judged in the long run though, and that demanding instant results is just part of the partisan games that increasingly replace rational discussion on contemporary political issues.



If the EU moved in a political direction you didn't like, you might not see the power to hold it to account as being so trivial.

If decentralisation would be good, why do you also support centralisation via the EU?



If a win-win solution can't be agreed it's an inditement on both sides. Britain runs a massive trade deficit with the EU, if they choose to cut off their nose to spite their face there are at least some benefits to the UK.

No idea what the overall long-term effects would be though, but then again nobody else does either.
What the Remain side says is irrelevant; just like what Corbyn said in the last election - totally meaningless.
The side that wins have to deliver their promises.
I don't think the EU prevents decentralisation, in fact you could argue it encourages it.
The EU and the UK will both lose because of Brexit.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
What the Remain side says is irrelevant; just like what Corbyn said in the last election - totally meaningless.
The side that wins have to deliver their promises.
I don't think the EU prevents decentralisation, in fact you could argue it encourages it.
The EU and the UK will both lose because of Brexit.
Only if UK wants it.
As for Italy, our PM has just said he wants to intensify the trade relations with Britain.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Only if UK wants it.
As for Italy, our PM has just said he wants to intensify the trade relations with Britain.

If no deal is agreed then he will need to do that through the Eu and meet EU regulations which it seems britain wants do ditch in favour or lower quality.
 
@Augustus
What do you think about Germany's behavior throughout the last 2 decades?

I would find the amount they have been able to enforce their interests over those of the citizens of a number of Eurozone countries, especially Greece, highly problematic were I a citizen of one of those countries.

But the Euro illustrates the very worst of the EU: ideology and wishful thinking over what is best for the people. It also illustrates the tendency of the EU to double down on its errors rather than learning from their mistakes and dealing with the reality as it is rather than how they think it should be in theory.
 
The side that wins have to deliver their promises.

Personally, I wouldn't spend my time complaining about the lack of instant results on something that will play out over the long term, but each to their own.

I don't think the EU prevents decentralisation, in fact you could argue it encourages it.

What makes you think that?

The EU by its very nature promotes centralisation: One size fits all rather than what is best for each. The EU has continually expanded its powers over the decades, ever closer union, and this is the opposite of decentralisation.

The EU and the UK will both lose because of Brexit.

They could easily enough both win. I don't have a great deal of faith in either side to get beyond posturing and ideology and actually focus on what is best for the people though.
 
So the advertising on UK TV is a waste of money.

Advertising for nurses?

Why would that be a waste of money?

There are not that many countries outside the EU where nursing standards are comparable and they tend to value the nursing profession and pay a wage relative to the skill. The funding in the UK will not allow the NHS to complete. No doubt why one never sees American, Canadian or Japanese nurses clamouring to work in Britain.

The NHS already hires many nurses from Commonwealth countries, as well as others like the Philippines. It will no doubt still be attractive to nurses from Eastern Europe too.

There is no reason why it should be significantly more difficult to hire nurses outside the EU than in. Just a bit more red tape to cut through for Europeans. Perhaps even becomes easier for non-Europeans.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Advertising for nurses?

Why would that be a waste of money?



The NHS already hires many nurses from Commonwealth countries, as well as others like the Philippines. It will no doubt still be attractive to nurses from Eastern Europe too.

There is no reason why it should be significantly more difficult to hire nurses outside the EU than in. Just a bit more red tape to cut through for Europeans. Perhaps even becomes easier for non-Europeans.


You said "Can always hire them from non-EU countries."

Ahh, red tape. Get used to that

As i said, that you seem to have ignored, Nurses from the countries with the standard of nursing that is expected pay better wages.
 
You said "Can always hire them from non-EU countries."

When you have hundreds of thousands of workers, you recruit via many channels.

Ahh, red tape. Get used to that

EU regulations are also a notorious source of bureaucracy for many businesses.

As i said, that you seem to have ignored, Nurses from the countries with the standard of nursing that is expected pay better wages.

As I said, the NHS already employs tens of thousands of nurses from countries that you assume aren't good enough to meet EU standards.

There are more non-EU nurses than there are EU nurses and by far the 2 biggest suppliers are India and the Philippines.

NHS staff from overseas: statistics - Commons Library briefing - UK Parliament

It's a bit outdated and Eurocentric to think that Asian or African countries are incapable of training nurses to the standard of Romania, Malta or Lithuania.

Finding people with good enough language skills is generally more of an issue than finding someone with acceptable nursing qualifications (hence India and the Philippines being the source of so many).
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Promises, promises ...

EQHQHNPXkAASZry
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Despite #NotaNumber and co not being able to name a benefit of Brexit, I've found one..

The EU have added the Cayman Islands to the tax blacklist. The UK had always vetoed it, watch all the rich Brexit backers move their monies out.
 
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