A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

[kjw47]

Do you see that the koine Greek word stauros, has the very word for "T", "t" right in it, as "stauros"?

The Hebrew and koine Greek "Tau" is the letter and shape "T" or "t", and may even be a sideways "t", also like an "x". - Tau - Wikipedia and Taw - Wikipedia

Psa 119:169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.​

Paleo-Hebrew (tau) - wiki

Proto - Sinaic (tau) - wiki

Here is the pictographic Hebrew (value 400, Tav):

From what I understand of historical languages, as noted above, it was always present, even from the beginning in Genesis 1:1 the Aleph Tav. I would like to comment more on that in a bit.

The "trinity" (as defined by Trent, etc) is non-sequitur to our current topic. If we may please leave it out? I am not "trinitarian" (Trent), but believe what the Bible says about "Godhead" (which we can discuss in another thread, location, but please not this one).

As shown, the very word itself carries the image of the "t" (Tau) in it. It's ancient pictographic form was that of a cross. I would like to go into more depth on why this is later.

I will differ with you here, and I would like the opportunity to show you that evidence which is in my possession. Would you be willing to consider the evidence I have? It will come from the scripture (KJB) itself, and I would like to hear what you have to say about that evidence.

Again, the subject of "trinity" is non-sequitur to the present discussion. If we may please leave it aside for this thread (we can discuss what the Bible says about JEHOVAH Elohiym in another thread).

Why then do you rely upon W E Vine, whose sources were Catholic (cited above)? Why does the NWT (which I have in my hand, possession) refer, in its notations (footnotes), to the Codex Aleph (Sinaiticus) and Codex B (Vaticanus), among others?

For instance in the the Revised 1970 NWT (I am holding), on page 1162, the New Testament, the Gospel of John, Chapter 7-8 (bottom of the page), it states (as confirmed likewise here - Link):

"a Manuscripts (aleph) B Sys omit verses 53 to chapter 8, verse 11 which read (with some variation in the various Greek texts and versions) as follows ..."​

The NWT (Rev. 1970) just referenced Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. In fact, the NWT, is largely based in these Codices, when compared to them, and in comparison to the KJV (GNT TR).

"For the Christian Greek Scriptures, the master Greek text of 1881 as prepared by Westcott and Hort was used primarily, but several other master texts were consulted as well as numerous early versions in other languages." - Link​

"... Those verses, found in some translations, are not in the oldest available Bible manuscripts. Comparison with other modern translations, such as The New English Bible and the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, shows that other translators have also recognized that the verses in question do not belong in the Bible. ..." - Link​

The "other master texts" they refer to are Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (both Catholic!, see Matthew 24:26 in a new light, for the one, Sinaiticus (in a desert), and Vaticanus (in a secret chamber of the Vatican vault)) which is what Westcott and Hort used clandestinely (in their own diaries)! You do not have to believe me, ask the WTS/JW org itself until you get straight answers.

It is even known that., "The layout resembles the 1901 edition of the American Standard Version." - Wiki

"... The Greek master text by the Cambridge University scholars B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort (1881) was used as the basis for translating the New Testament into English.[23] The committee also referred to the Novum Testamentum Graece (18th edition, 1948) and to works by Jesuit scholars José M. Bover (1943),[23] and Augustinus Merk (1948).[23] ..." - Wiki​

Even the Latin Vulgate was consulted for the OT of the NWT.

Also, it is stated,

"As a basis for translating the Hebrew Scriptures, the text of Rudolf Kittel’s Biblia Hebraica, editions of 1951-1955, was used." - Link​

Do you know who Rudolph Kittel was, who his father was, and his (RK) theological positions were? Do you know what condition the mss that Kittel used is in and why it was rejected?

There are 34,000 denominations all caused by massive confusion of truth. Will I believe mortals I do not know= never.

The latin vulgate-- a translation by the religion that came out of Rome. 100% proven-false religion.

Not one on earth who knows the real Jesus serves a trinity god--so no they are not scholars. Only in their minds.

ONLY translating by the religion that came out of Rome translating remained by the time the protestants translated. It was all screwed up to fit false council teachings.

 

[kjw47]

The cross= something the blind bow to, kiss, yet it can do 0. It is a icon, a graven image condemned to use in the bible. It can do 0.

 

[coconut theology]

There are 34,000 denominations all caused by massive confusion of truth.

Essentially true, but that doesn't negate that there is the One True Church (1 Timothy 3:15), known as the "remnant" (Revelation 12:17; Joel 2:31-32).

Among the myriad shards of broken glass exists the true diamond. I am a member of that "remnant".

Will I believe mortals I do not know= never.

Not sure what you mean here exactly, as the English is a little broken, at least as I understand it. I am not asking you to believe mortals. I am asking you to believe what JEHOVAH Elohiym gave as the "pattern" from Heaven - A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

The latin vulgate-- a translation by the religion that came out of Rome. 100% proven-false religion.

I basically agree with you, and yet why then was the Latin Vulgate (Jerome) consulted for the OT portion of the NWT translation? Why was the Sinaiticus (aleph) and Vaticanus (B) of Westcott and Hort consulted for the NT portion of the NWT translation?

Not one on earth who knows the real Jesus serves a trinity god--

I just told you above, that I do not so serve such "trinity" (Trent). The conversation is non-sequitur to the topic under discussion at present, which is the "cross" in the Bible and history. If you would like to discuss the Persons/Beings of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.Spirit, please begin a new thread and we can discuss there, or I can if you need me to. Please not here.

so no they are not scholars.

Scholar or not, doesn't really have to do with much. It is all a matter of whether the person believes the inspired and preserved word of God (and in English, is the KJB).

Only in their minds.

I will ask you to please focus upon the topic, "cross".

ONLY translating by the religion that came out of Rome translating remained by the time the protestants translated. It was all screwed up to fit false council teachings.

I am showing, by scripture that the "cross" exists even without translation into any language. it exists in picture form in the very Sanctuary of God, and elsewhere, of which I will now present the 2nd example in the following response.

 

[coconut theology]

The cross= something the blind bow to, kiss, yet it can do 0. It is a icon, a graven image condemned to use in the bible. It can do 0.

It is no such thing. It is merely "the way" as found in the Sanctuary. It is God which does the mighty works of salvation, not the shape. Yet, the shape exists, please notice the second example:

Here is another example of the Cross, even in the Banners of Israel:

Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.​

Which image may be found here - Study Notes, Sabbath School & More - SDA Maranatha Multicultural Church in American Samoa

Notice, that each 'standard' or 'flag' of 'creature flesh' (hide) is hung from two poles, a vertical and a horizontal, even as the scripture states of Jesus, that He was the 'banner of love over me':

Son_2:4 He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.​

Christ Jesus "hung" from the Vertical, attached to the Horizontal.

For even over His own Head, reveals that He is the King. This was God's standard, His Banner, of Love. Self-Sacrifice. Thy [JEHOVAH Elohiym's] will be done, and not as the WTS/JW, their will be done.

JEHOVAH Nissi. The LORD (JEHOVAH) is my Banner.

Exo_17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:​

This was even noted in the old writers, long before AD 250. Notice Justin Martyr (AD 100-165); First Apology; Chapter LV (55), Symbols of the Cross:

"... And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called "vexilla" [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished." ..." - Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

I had not even known this quote existed when I was studying the matter out, through prayer and the word of God. I find it absolutely providential that God led me first to the word, then to those who saw it before me after!

 

[kjw47]

It is no such thing. It is merely "the way" as found in the Sanctuary. It is God which does the mighty works of salvation, not the shape. Yet, the shape exists, please notice the second example:

Here is another example of the Cross, even in the Banners of Israel:

Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.​

View attachment 36742

View attachment 36743

Which image may be found here - Study Notes, Sabbath School & More - SDA Maranatha Multicultural Church in American Samoa

Notice, that each 'standard' or 'flag' of 'creature flesh' (hide) is hung from two poles, a vertical and a horizontal, even as the scripture states of Jesus, that He was the 'banner of love over me':

Son_2:4 He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.​

Christ Jesus "hung" from the Vertical, attached to the Horizontal.

For even over His own Head, reveals that He is the King. This was God's standard, His Banner, of Love. Self-Sacrifice. Thy [JEHOVAH Elohiym's] will be done, and not as the WTS/JW, their will be done.

JEHOVAH Nissi. The LORD (JEHOVAH) is my Banner.

Exo_17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:​

This was even noted in the old writers, long before AD 250. Notice Justin Martyr (AD 100-165); First Apology; Chapter LV (55), Symbols of the Cross:

"... And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called "vexilla" [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished." ..." - Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

I had not even known this quote existed when I was studying the matter out, through prayer and the word of God. I find it absolutely providential that God led me first to the word, then to those who saw it before me after!

I didn't say they didn't use crosses to murder others--I said there is 0 proof Jesus was executed on one, except a translated greek word. Now since they erred greatly translating at John 1:1 according to their own greek lexicon--Their translating cannot be trusted. They mislead over 2 billion into serving a non existent god( trinity) making them break Gods #1 commandment daily--I for one will not trust their translating.

 

[kjw47]

It is no such thing. It is merely "the way" as found in the Sanctuary. It is God which does the mighty works of salvation, not the shape. Yet, the shape exists, please notice the second example:

Here is another example of the Cross, even in the Banners of Israel:

Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.​

View attachment 36742

View attachment 36743

Which image may be found here - Study Notes, Sabbath School & More - SDA Maranatha Multicultural Church in American Samoa

Notice, that each 'standard' or 'flag' of 'creature flesh' (hide) is hung from two poles, a vertical and a horizontal, even as the scripture states of Jesus, that He was the 'banner of love over me':

Son_2:4 He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.​

Christ Jesus "hung" from the Vertical, attached to the Horizontal.

For even over His own Head, reveals that He is the King. This was God's standard, His Banner, of Love. Self-Sacrifice. Thy [JEHOVAH Elohiym's] will be done, and not as the WTS/JW, their will be done.

JEHOVAH Nissi. The LORD (JEHOVAH) is my Banner.

Exo_17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:​

This was even noted in the old writers, long before AD 250. Notice Justin Martyr (AD 100-165); First Apology; Chapter LV (55), Symbols of the Cross:

"... And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called "vexilla" [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished." ..." - Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

I had not even known this quote existed when I was studying the matter out, through prayer and the word of God. I find it absolutely providential that God led me first to the word, then to those who saw it before me after!

I didn't say they didn't use crosses to murder others--I said there is 0 proof Jesus was executed on one, except a translated greek word. Now since they erred greatly translating at John 1:1 according to their own greek lexicon--Their translating cannot be trusted. They mislead over 2 billion into serving a non existent god( trinity) making them break Gods #1 commandment daily--I for one will not trust their translating.

 

[kjw47]

It is no such thing. It is merely "the way" as found in the Sanctuary. It is God which does the mighty works of salvation, not the shape. Yet, the shape exists, please notice the second example:

Here is another example of the Cross, even in the Banners of Israel:

Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.​

View attachment 36742

View attachment 36743

Which image may be found here - Study Notes, Sabbath School & More - SDA Maranatha Multicultural Church in American Samoa

Notice, that each 'standard' or 'flag' of 'creature flesh' (hide) is hung from two poles, a vertical and a horizontal, even as the scripture states of Jesus, that He was the 'banner of love over me':

Son_2:4 He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.​

Christ Jesus "hung" from the Vertical, attached to the Horizontal.

For even over His own Head, reveals that He is the King. This was God's standard, His Banner, of Love. Self-Sacrifice. Thy [JEHOVAH Elohiym's] will be done, and not as the WTS/JW, their will be done.

JEHOVAH Nissi. The LORD (JEHOVAH) is my Banner.

Exo_17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:​

This was even noted in the old writers, long before AD 250. Notice Justin Martyr (AD 100-165); First Apology; Chapter LV (55), Symbols of the Cross:

"... And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called "vexilla" [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished." ..." - Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

I had not even known this quote existed when I was studying the matter out, through prayer and the word of God. I find it absolutely providential that God led me first to the word, then to those who saw it before me after!

I didn't say they didn't use crosses to murder others--I said there is 0 proof Jesus was executed on one, except a translated greek word. Now since they erred greatly translating at John 1:1 according to their own greek lexicon--Their translating cannot be trusted. They mislead over 2 billion into serving a non existent god( trinity) making them break Gods #1 commandment daily--I for one will not trust their translating.

 

[coconut theology]

I didn't say they didn't use crosses to murder others

I didn't say or imply you had said it. I am rather puzzled at your response to what I did say.

--I said there is 0 proof Jesus was executed on one

Psalms 77:13, is one such proof as shown in the 'pattern' of the sanctuary, which was given from Heaven. I am showing that even the word stauros has the Tau in it. I have showed that even the pictographic and paleo Hebrew letter Tau is in the very shape. There is yet further evidences in prophecy and typology yet to come.

except a translated greek word.

Which may be translated as "wood', "tree", "cross" or a number of similar things.

Now since they erred greatly translating at John 1:1

Non-sequitur to the present topic of "cross". If you want to consider John 1:1, please do so in another thread. I would be glad to show you the evidence for the translation in John 1:1 KJB is just fine, and why it was written in koine Greek the way it was.

according to their own greek lexicon--

There is no such 'standard (singular) work. God's word is not translated by men's lexicons. It is self translating, self interpreting. It is God who does "translation".

Their translating cannot be trusted.

Why is it always these things with the WTS/JW member? It is as if there if nothing else upon their mind. Tell you what. I will give you a test to translate both Hebrew and Greek on the spot. I will give you two hours. I will choose an Hebrew and Greek text, and I will ask you to translate it for me within two hours of it being posted. Will you do so? If not, how about I give you a work that is already translated from Hebrew or Greek and you tell me if it is properly translated or in error, and I will show the correct result/answer when you are done, deal?

They mislead over 2 billion into serving a non existent god( trinity)

Non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with the present discussion on the shape of the instrument upon which Jesus was crucified. If you want to discuss JEHOVAH Elohiym, we can do so in another location. I am not "trinitarian" (Trent) as already told to you.

making them break Gods #1 commandment daily--I for one will not trust their translating.

Please, the NWT is translated like the ASV, and others, and even uses some of the same translated words found in those RV (1881), ASV (1901) etc. It is based in Westcott and Hort's Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, and other such materials, like Kittel's Hebraica (singular) text. Will you blindly trust the mysterious translating committee that 'translated' the original NWT, or the revising committees that do so today? Why? Who are you kidding? You are relying upon the Lexicons of those who were both trinitarian and unitarian (at the root its the same).

 

[coconut theology]

... I for one will not trust their translating.

I am not asking you to "trust their (who???, its like wikipedia or something) translating". I am asking you to consider the scripture in what it shows in the Sanctuary whose 'language' surpasses that of mankind into image/picture. I am showing you through the linguistical shape of the letters of the paleo and pictographic Hebrew, and koine Greek, etc. It is standard, and all agree.

Notice now what Jesus Himself said, as I present the next evidence of the "cross" in scripture (and the examples I give, can be found in your own NWT and KIT, as these things are in every Bible, good or bad translation):

Jesus, Himself said:

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

And the "vine" spoken of, was of the grapevines near Jerusalem, onward towards the mount of olives, as an object lesson for His disciples, as giving them a mental picture of their relation to Him and His Father, and in the way in which He was about to die for them, for in the grape, is the "pure blood of the grape" (Deuteronomy 32:14) and not that fermented alcohol of the false systems of Babylon.

Here is what a grapevine looks like in several pictures:

Notice of the Grape Vine Hangs upon the Vertical and Horizontal Trellis, with the stock/stump/body being central, and the branches or arms going outward, east to west, held up by iron wire:

Notice, how the body of the cluster is central, to the main shoot, and with the outstretched branches, even as nature, created by God, is an object lesson for us, as it is written:

1Co_15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.​

And thus:

And as pierced in the side, out came "blood" and "water" even as it is from the grapevine itself, which turns water into the pure "fruit of the vine", the grape juice, the "wine" of God (and not Sodom), by God's design.

Joh_19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.​

Even as Jesus was baptized with the water, and had a baptism of blood:

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

I pray you do not look away from nature, and the word of God, and to your own designs, to your own makings and imagination, so not recognizing the Person before you. God has placed it in nature for you, and in the word for you.

The very name JEHOVAH means:

As the Aleph-Bet carries meaning for every letter:

I didn't make this up. It is written upon the rocks of old. - The Ancient Pictographic Hebrew Language · Mini Manna Moments

 

[Deeje]

@coconut theology I am having trouble replying to your very detailed posts for some reason. I will try again later.

 

[kjw47]

I didn't say or imply you had said it. I am rather puzzled at your response to what I did say.

Psalms 77:13, is one such proof as shown in the 'pattern' of the sanctuary, which was given from Heaven. I am showing that even the word stauros has the Tau in it. I have showed that even the pictographic and paleo Hebrew letter Tau is in the very shape. There is yet further evidences in prophecy and typology yet to come.

Which may be translated as "wood', "tree", "cross" or a number of similar things.

Non-sequitur to the present topic of "cross". If you want to consider John 1:1, please do so in another thread. I would be glad to show you the evidence for the translation in John 1:1 KJB is just fine, and why it was written in koine Greek the way it was.

There is no such 'standard (singular) work. God's word is not translated by men's lexicons. It is self translating, self interpreting. It is God who does "translation".

Why is it always these things with the WTS/JW member? It is as if there if nothing else upon their mind. Tell you what. I will give you a test to translate both Hebrew and Greek on the spot. I will give you two hours. I will choose an Hebrew and Greek text, and I will ask you to translate it for me within two hours of it being posted. Will you do so? If not, how about I give you a work that is already translated from Hebrew or Greek and you tell me if it is properly translated or in error, and I will show the correct result/answer when you are done, deal?

Non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with the present discussion on the shape of the instrument upon which Jesus was crucified. If you want to discuss JEHOVAH Elohiym, we can do so in another location. I am not "trinitarian" (Trent) as already told to you.

Please, the NWT is translated like the ASV, and others, and even uses some of the same translated words found in those RV (1881), ASV (1901) etc. It is based in Westcott and Hort's Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, and other such materials, like Kittel's Hebraica (singular) text. Will you blindly trust the mysterious translating committee that 'translated' the original NWT, or the revising committees that do so today? Why? Who are you kidding? You are relying upon the Lexicons of those who were both trinitarian and unitarian (at the root its the same).

If God did the translating, then why so much confusion within the religions claiming to be Christian?34,000 of them.Every one of them say they have holy spirit. Is the Hoy spirit confused?
It is clear at 1Cor 1:10= a true mark of the religion that has Jesus--Unity of thought, no division= 1 single religion. one single religion had God in the Ot as well.
Yes I trust the NWT. Holy spirit is behind it. It fixed the errors found in trinity translations.
The cross cannot be proven either way. There are much more important realities few know the truth of.
Yes, tree was a word translated from Stauros, but when I checked back in the 1960,s-- cross was not a translation.

 

[kjw47]

I am not asking you to "trust their (who???, its like wikipedia or something) translating". I am asking you to consider the scripture in what it shows in the Sanctuary whose 'language' surpasses that of mankind into image/picture. I am showing you through the linguistical shape of the letters of the paleo and pictographic Hebrew, and koine Greek, etc. It is standard, and all agree.

Notice now what Jesus Himself said, as I present the next evidence of the "cross" in scripture (and the examples I give, can be found in your own NWT and KIT, as these things are in every Bible, good or bad translation):

Jesus, Himself said:

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

And the "vine" spoken of, was of the grapevines near Jerusalem, onward towards the mount of olives, as an object lesson for His disciples, as giving them a mental picture of their relation to Him and His Father, and in the way in which He was about to die for them, for in the grape, is the "pure blood of the grape" (Deuteronomy 32:14) and not that fermented alcohol of the false systems of Babylon.

Here is what a grapevine looks like in several pictures:

View attachment 36746

View attachment 36747


Notice of the Grape Vine Hangs upon the Vertical and Horizontal Trellis, with the stock/stump/body being central, and the branches or arms going outward, east to west, held up by iron wire:

View attachment 36748

Notice, how the body of the cluster is central, to the main shoot, and with the outstretched branches, even as nature, created by God, is an object lesson for us, as it is written:

1Co_15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.​

And thus:

View attachment 36749

And as pierced in the side, out came "blood" and "water" even as it is from the grapevine itself, which turns water into the pure "fruit of the vine", the grape juice, the "wine" of God (and not Sodom), by God's design.

Joh_19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.​

Even as Jesus was baptized with the water, and had a baptism of blood:

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

I pray you do not look away from nature, and the word of God, and to your own designs, to your own makings and imagination, so not recognizing the Person before you. God has placed it in nature for you, and in the word for you.

The very name JEHOVAH means:

View attachment 36750

As the Aleph-Bet carries meaning for every letter:

View attachment 36751

I didn't make this up. It is written upon the rocks of old. - The Ancient Pictographic Hebrew Language · Mini Manna Moments

 

[kjw47]

I am not asking you to "trust their (who???, its like wikipedia or something) translating". I am asking you to consider the scripture in what it shows in the Sanctuary whose 'language' surpasses that of mankind into image/picture. I am showing you through the linguistical shape of the letters of the paleo and pictographic Hebrew, and koine Greek, etc. It is standard, and all agree.

Notice now what Jesus Himself said, as I present the next evidence of the "cross" in scripture (and the examples I give, can be found in your own NWT and KIT, as these things are in every Bible, good or bad translation):

Jesus, Himself said:

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

And the "vine" spoken of, was of the grapevines near Jerusalem, onward towards the mount of olives, as an object lesson for His disciples, as giving them a mental picture of their relation to Him and His Father, and in the way in which He was about to die for them, for in the grape, is the "pure blood of the grape" (Deuteronomy 32:14) and not that fermented alcohol of the false systems of Babylon.

Here is what a grapevine looks like in several pictures:

View attachment 36746

View attachment 36747


Notice of the Grape Vine Hangs upon the Vertical and Horizontal Trellis, with the stock/stump/body being central, and the branches or arms going outward, east to west, held up by iron wire:

View attachment 36748

Notice, how the body of the cluster is central, to the main shoot, and with the outstretched branches, even as nature, created by God, is an object lesson for us, as it is written:

1Co_15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.​

And thus:

View attachment 36749

And as pierced in the side, out came "blood" and "water" even as it is from the grapevine itself, which turns water into the pure "fruit of the vine", the grape juice, the "wine" of God (and not Sodom), by God's design.

Joh_19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.​

Even as Jesus was baptized with the water, and had a baptism of blood:

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

I pray you do not look away from nature, and the word of God, and to your own designs, to your own makings and imagination, so not recognizing the Person before you. God has placed it in nature for you, and in the word for you.

The very name JEHOVAH means:

View attachment 36750

As the Aleph-Bet carries meaning for every letter:

View attachment 36751

I didn't make this up. It is written upon the rocks of old. - The Ancient Pictographic Hebrew Language · Mini Manna Moments

Yes they are one--in purpose--The living 24/7, 365 doing Jesus' Fathers will. As all true followers strive for as well and will achieve in Gods kingdom fully. Jesus was clear--Matthew 7:21-23--Those living now to do his Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom( be saved)-- Too many blind guides tell workers of iniquity( willfull or practice of sin) they are saved or born again and they go through life believing it.

 

[coconut theology]

If God did the translating, then why so much confusion within the religions claiming to be Christian?34,000 of them.Every one of them say they have holy spirit. Is the Hoy spirit confused?

They have chosen their own interpretation over God's. It is that simple. They have relied upon their own heart:

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?​

I assume your question in regards the Holy Ghost/Spirit was merely facetious and not an actual question. Do not mock the Holy Spirit, its very dangerous to do that. You are hereby warned in love from off that ground.

It is clear at 1Cor 1:10= a true mark of the religion that has Jesus--Unity of thought, no division= 1 single religion. one single religion had God in the Ot as well.

It is one identifier, yes. Thus, why I am, by God's grace, a true Seventh-day Adventist and not another. The "same" JEHOVAH Elohiym, I agree, Hebrews 1:8-12; Psalms 45:6-7; Psalms 102:12,24-27; Hebrews 13:4-8.

Yes I trust the NWT.

Why? It's based upon Catholic MSS/Codices as shown.

Holy spirit is behind it. It fixed the errors found in trinity translations.

I agree that there is a "spirit" behind it. That is not in question in the least. Yet the WTS/JW teach that Jesus came in unfallen flesh, which is the doctrine of anti-christ (Roman Catholicism).

The cross cannot be proven either way.

I am showing quite the opposite, that it definitely can, whether I use a KJB, or NWT or KIT, etc. God left the pattern all through scripture, and I have several more great examples, which so far, have not been refuted, or even attempted to be addressed in any serious rebuttal.

There are much more important realities few know the truth of.

Oh, no doubt, but truth is truth, whether great or small, and this is one way to help identify that the WTS/JW have greatly erred and refuse to change, showing that they are not what they claim to be. I will be showing in this thread the other ways also, through the prophecies, etc as time allows. I expect soon for the dialogue to become merely one voice.

Yes, tree was a word translated from Stauros, but when I checked back in the 1960,s-- cross was not a translation.

Seems rather narrow window to 'choose' from., as I showed. And why then do the WTS/JW "laugh" (their word, not mine) at those who cite material 50 years old, when you are citing as old material, and incomplete, and from a theological position which is counter to your own? (In otherwords, why rely upon those not of the WTS/JW such as Vine, Thayer, Liddell, Westcott, Hort; etc, whom all would vehemently disagree with the basic WTS position? They are not WTS/JW friendly.)

My next example is found in the First and the Last:

As, we (who are honest) have noticed from scripture, and from nature (the second 'book' of God), the example of the "Cross", let us now look at the other designation of God, "... the First ... and the Last ..."

Isa_41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa_48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev_1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev_2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.​

This is even seen in Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew (vav, and aleph, tav):

Genesis 1:1 Hebrew:

רֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ​

Genesis 1:1 Transliterated Hebrew:

B'rëshiyt Bärä élohiym ët haSHämayim w'ët hääretz​

Gen 1:1 KJB In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The "ët" and "w'ët" are two untranslated words, not found in the English, except as defined elsewhere as "first and last", "beginning and ending", "alpha and omega", "author and finisher", and even from the beginning of finshed creation the "7th day" to the final end, the "advent".

Thus in pictographic Hebrew, the very "sign" suspended between the words "Heaven" and "Earth", which is what John was speaking of in John 1:1, when he said, "In the beginning was the word ...", for John being Hebrew/Jew could understand.

This very "sign" is seen in Ezekiel 9:4,6 of the Tau/Tav:

Ezekiel 9:4 Hebrew

וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה *אֵלוֹ [אֵלָיו] עֲבֹר בְּתוֹ הָעִיר בְּתוֹ יְרוּשָׁלִָם וְהִתְוִיתָ תָּו עַל־מִצְחוֹת הָאֲנָשִׁים הַנֶּאֱנָחִים וְהַנֶּאֱנָקִים עַל כָּל־הַתּוֹעֵבוֹת הַנַּעֲשׂוֹת בְּתוֹכָהּ​

Ezekiel 9:4 transliterated Hebrew

9:4 waYomer y'hwäh *ëlô [ëläyw] ávor B'tôkh' häiyr B'tôkh' y'rûshäläim w'hit'wiytä Täw al-mitz'chôt häánäshiym haNeénächiym w'haNeénäqiym al Käl-haTôëvôt haNaásôt B'tôkhäH​

Ezekiel 9:6 Hebrew

זָקֵן בָּחוּר וּבְתוּלָה וְטַף וְנָשִׁים תַּהַרְגוּ לְמַשְׁחִית וְעַל־כָּל־אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר־עָלָיו הַתָּו אַל־תִּגַּשׁוּ וּמִמִּקְדָּשִׁי תָּחֵלּוּ וַיָּחֵלּוּ בָּאֲנָשִׁים הַזְּקֵנִים אֲשֶׁר לִפְנֵי הַבָּיִת​

Ezekiel 9:6 transliterated Hebrew

9:6 zäqën Bächûr ûv'tûläh w'†af w'näshiym Tahar'gû l'mash'chiyt w'al-Käl-iysh ásher-äläyw haTäw al-TiGashû ûmiMiq'Däshiy TächëLû waYächëLû Bäánäshiym haZ'qëniym ásher lif'nëy haBäyit​

Thus we see that it is translated as "mark" [H8420].

The very name, "Jesus" means "JEHOVAH is [my] salvation./saviour":

Mat_1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.​

In the OT Hebrew, the Hebrew word (H3444) for "salvation" is "yeshua", for instance, which is part of His name, see:

Exo 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation [לי לישׁועה]: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.​

In several places in the OT, the name used is literally (Alpha-Omega, "et") Yeshua YHVH or Jesus JEHOVAH, for instance see:

Genesis 49:18 HOT - לישׁועתך קויתי יהוה׃

Genesis 49:18 HOT Translit. - liyshûät'khä qiûiytiy y'hwäh

Exodus 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃

Exodus 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm​

The "et" or "את" is the Alpeh Tau, the Alpha Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letter, the Author and Finisher.

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT - לא לכם להלחם בזאת התיצבו עמדו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה עמכם יהודה וירושׁלם אל־תיראו ואל־תחתו מחר צאו לפניהם ויהוה עמכם׃

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT Translit. - lo läkhem l'hiLächëm Bäzot hit'yaTZ'vû im'dû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh iMäkhem y'hûdäh wiyrûshälaim al-Tiyr'û w'al-TëchaTû mächär tz'û lif'nëyhem wayhwäh iMäkhem

Jonah 2:9 (2:10) HOT - ואני בקול תודה אזבחה־לך אשׁר נדרתי אשׁלמה ישׁועתה ליהוה׃

Jonah 2:9 HOT Translit. - waániy B'qôl Tôdäh ez'B'chäh-Läkh' ásher nädar'Tiy áshaLëmäh y'shûätäh layhwäh š

Psalms 119:174 HOT - תאבתי לישׁועתך יהוה ותורתך שׁעשׁעי׃

Psalms 119:174 HOT Translit. - Täav'Tiy liyshûät'khä y'hwäh w'tôrät'khä shaáshuäy​

 

[coconut theology]

A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

I had asked @kjw47 if they would be kind enough to explain some of their material, and that I might ask some questions and have some dialogue about some specific prophecies and doctrines.

I had asked here - A huge problem with the JW religion:

"I have some questions if you have some time? Some are in regards the books I have received from the WTS/JW org members back in the country I came from (having since moved). One is "What does the Bible really teach?" and the other is "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy".

Would you be willing to look at those materials with me? I would like for you to explain a few things in them in a bit more detail from scripture, and have a bit of dialogue about what I believe also."​

kjw47 said:

"Ask a question."​

So, here begins that dialogue,

kjw47, would you be able to explain the time prophecies (7 times in Daniel 4, the time, times and dividing of time in Daniel 7:25, the time, times and a half in Daniel 12:6, the 1,290 in Daniel 12:11, the 1,335 in Daniel 12:12-13, 70 Weeks, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, 1 week, midst of the week in Daniel 9, the 2,300 days in Daniel 8, as well as the 10 days in Revelation 2:10, the 42 months in Revelation 11:2, the 1,260 in Revelation 11:3, and the 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11:9,11, the 1,260 in Revelation 12:6, the time, times and half a time in Revelation 12:14, the 42 months in Revelation 13:5, the "hour" in Revelation 3:10, the "about the space of half an hour" in Revelation 8:1, the "five months" in Revelation 9,5,6,10, the "hour" in Revelation 17:12, the "hour" in Revelation 14:7, the "hour, and day, and month and year" in Revelation 9:13-15, and the 1000 years in Revelation 20:1-7) of Daniel and Revelation, and would you say that the following image is an accurate representation of the material found in those two books mentioned above? In other words, did I correctly understand what is taught therein?

WTS/JW timeline:

View attachment 36645

Source Link

I noticed that some of the time prophecies mentioned above were not listed in the two books. Are they listed elsewhere in WTS/JW material, and if so, can you provide that with citation for me, on the other time prophecies?...

I still would like an answer from any WTS/JW about the question I asked (regarding the time prophecies). So far, I am not receiving any answers to this question. I have asked, I do not know how many WTS/JW over the years, and never do I get an answer on these. All I ever get is , "We'll get back to you ..."

 

[coconut theology]

@coconut theology I am having trouble replying to your very detailed posts for some reason. I will try again later.

It's understandable. I noticed that there were issues with kjw47 and their responses duplicating last night. It's the forums fault.

Yet, I would like to take this opportunity to share another example, this time from prophecy:

Let us now consider a prophecy from the OT itself.

Isaiah 28:16,17 KJB.

Isaiah 28:16 KJB - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Isaiah 28:17 KJB - Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.​

Can any not see Christ Jesus in vs 16 [compare to Romans 9:33; 1Corinthians 3:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:8, etc KJB], but what more in vs 17!

"Judgment also will I lay to the line... "

What is a line?

It is a measuring tool upon the horizontal - as far as the east is from the west (Psalms 103:12); eternal in either direction, relationship of man to man, straight

* * * * * * *

" ... and righteousness to the plummet ..."

What is a plummet?

It is a measuring tool upon the vertical - binding Heaven and earth together [Genesis 1:1, vav, aleph, tav]; from highest to lowest, relationship of man to God, straight

*
*
*
*
*
*
*

Thus the "line" and the "plummet" is what God uses as the perfect standard for measurement:

The Justice and Righteousness of God, the very Love of God, meet there, forever demonstrated before all the 4 quadrants of the universe... the truest standard of measurement, the perfect 'meter' - God' love, God is love at Origin.

In fact, the Cross, is a Throne. Jesus is Crowned King of the Jews. He has them which are on his right and left. There is also a seat placed upon it also.

There is more, much more, let us look and see, even in the very lives of the Patriarchs themselves...

 

[coconut theology]

... The cross ... Yes, tree was a word translated from Stauros ...

Good, I want to look at this word "tree" a bit, ok, and show that it too in the natural, and in scripture shows the "cross":

Now, we can begin to look at a word used in scripture, over and over again for the "cross", as in other places Paul calls it the "tree", of which every known tree in the world has its Central Body, and then "branches" to the side:

Looking at the Scriptural evidences, we can see that the very word “tree” in Deuteronomy 21:22,23 KJB, as cited before, and re-quoted in the New Testament by Luke, Paul [Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29; Galatians 3:13, etc KJB], and Peter [1 Peter 2:24 KJB], does indeed refer to “tree”, as we find the same word used in Genesis 1:11 KJB.

This is the first time that this word is used, and the first use, in Scripture, generally defines the meaning. In the word secondary uses, it also can mean that “wood”, or “sticks”, etc which come from the “tree”, and we can know also, from the very fact that in the beginning, there was no items separate from trees like lumber, for there was no need, in the Garden of Eden.

Therefore, anything which came from the “tree” is simply derivative of it. The last use in the Scripture of the Greek equivalent, also refers to a literal “tree”, even the “tree of life”, again found in the Garden. This is one of the principles of Scripture. First and Last usages, even the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending...

The “tree of life” in the Beginning, the “tree of life” in the ending, and the “tree” of “Life” in the center, the Cross of Jesus and Him Crucified, spreading its saving shadow and cover, from the heat and fiery fury of the wrath of God to come.

Deuteronomy 21:22 - And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

Deuteronomy 21:23 - His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.​

The Hebrew word for “tree” in Deuteronomy 21:22,23, is [Hebrew: H6086] “עֵץ” [transliterated] “ëtz”, meaning “[1] tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows; [A] tree, trees; wood, pieces of wood, gallows, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax” [Strong's Concordance] which comes from the root word [Hebrew: H6095] “עצה”, [transliterated] “`atsah”, meaning “shut”. The translates Strong's H6086 in the following manner, taken from E-Sword KJC [King James Concordance]:

“Total Occurrences: 334:

wood, 107:

Gen 6:14, Gen 22:3, Gen 22:6-7 (2), Gen 22:9 (2), Exo 7:19, Exo 25:5, Exo 25:10, Exo 25:13, Exo 25:23, Exo 25:28, Exo 26:15, Exo 26:26, Exo 27:1, Exo 27:6, Exo 30:1, Exo 30:5, Exo 35:7, Exo 35:24, Exo 35:33, Exo 36:20, Exo 36:31, Exo 37:1, Exo 37:4, Exo 37:10, Exo 37:15, Exo 37:25, Exo 37:28, Exo 38:1, Lev 1:6-8 (3), Lev 1:12, Lev 1:17, Lev 3:5, Lev 6:12 (2), Lev 11:32, Lev 14:4, Lev 14:6, Lev 14:49, Lev 14:51-52 (2), Lev 15:12, Num 13:20, Num 19:6, Num 31:20, Num 35:18, Deu 4:28, Deu 10:1, Deu 10:3, Deu 19:5, Deu 28:36, Deu 28:64, Deu 29:11, Deu 29:17, Jos 9:21, Jos 9:23, Jos 9:27, Jdg 6:26, 1Sa 6:14, 2Sa 6:5, 2Sa 24:22, 1Ki 6:15, 1Ki 18:23 (2), 1Ki 18:33 (3), 1Ki 18:38, 2Ki 6:4, 2Ki 19:18, 1Ch 21:23, 1Ch 22:4, 1Ch 29:2 (2), 2Ch 2:16, Neh 8:4, Neh 10:34, Neh 13:31, Job 41:27, Pro 26:20-21 (2), Son 3:9 (2), Isa 10:15, Isa 30:33, Isa 45:19-20 (2), Isa 60:17, Jer 5:14, Jer 7:18, Jer 28:13, Jer 46:22, Lam 5:4, Lam 5:13, Eze 15:3, Eze 20:32, Eze 39:10 (2), Eze 41:16, Eze 41:22 (2), Hab 2:19, Hag 1:8, Zec 12:6

tree, 88

Gen 1:11-12 (2), Gen 1:29 (2), Gen 2:9 (3), Gen 2:16-17 (2), Gen 3:1, Gen 3:3, Gen 3:6 (2), Gen 3:11-12 (2), Gen 3:17, Gen 3:22, Gen 3:24, Gen 18:4, Gen 18:8, Gen 40:19, Exo 9:25, Exo 10:5, Exo 15:25, Lev 27:30, Deu 12:2, Deu 19:5, Deu 20:19, Deu 21:22-23 (2), Deu 22:6, Jos 8:29 (2), Jdg 9:10-11 (2), 1Ki 4:33, 1Ki 6:23, 1Ki 6:31-34 (4), 1Ki 14:23, 2Ki 3:19, 2Ki 16:4, 2Ki 17:10, 2Ch 3:5, 2Ch 28:4, Est 2:23, Job 14:7, Job 19:10, Job 24:20, Psa 1:3, Pro 3:18, Pro 11:30, Pro 13:12, Pro 15:4, Son 2:3 (3), Isa 40:20, Isa 44:19 (2), Isa 44:23, Isa 56:3, Isa 57:5, Isa 65:22, Jer 2:20, Jer 3:6, Jer 3:13, Jer 10:3, Jer 11:19, Jer 17:8, Eze 6:13, Eze 15:2 (2), Eze 15:6, Eze 17:24 (4), Eze 20:47 (2), Eze 21:10, Eze 31:8, Eze 34:27, Eze 36:30, Joe 2:22, Hag 2:19

trees, 79

Gen 3:2, Gen 3:8, Gen 23:17, Exo 10:15 (2), Lev 19:23, Lev 23:40 (2), Lev 26:4, Deu 16:20-21 (2), Deu 20:19-20 (3), Deu 28:42, Jos 10:26-27 (3), Jdg 9:8-15 (8), Jdg 9:48, 2Sa 5:11, 1Ki 4:33, 1Ki 10:10-12 (7), 2Ki 3:25, 1Ch 16:33, 1Ch 22:4, 2Ch 9:10-11 (2), Ezr 3:7, Neh 8:15, Neh 9:25, Neh 10:35, Neh 10:37, Psa 74:5, Psa 96:12, Psa 104:16, Psa 105:33, Psa 148:9, Ecc 2:5-6 (2), Son 2:3, Son 4:14, Isa 7:2, Isa 10:19, Isa 44:14, Isa 55:12, Jer 7:20, Eze 15:2 (2), Eze 15:6, Eze 17:24, Eze 20:28, Eze 31:4-5 (2), Eze 31:8-9 (3), Eze 31:14-16 (3), Eze 31:18 (2), Eze 47:7, Joe 1:12 (2), Joe 1:19

timber, 23

Exo 31:5, Lev 14:45, 1Ki 5:6, 1Ki 5:8 (2), 1Ki 5:18, 1Ki 6:10, 1Ki 15:22, 2Ki 12:12, 2Ki 22:6, 1Ch 14:1, 1Ch 22:14-15 (2), 2Ch 2:8-10 (3), 2Ch 2:14, 2Ch 16:6, 2Ch 34:11, Neh 2:8, Eze 26:12, Hab 2:11, Zec 5:4

stick, 9

2Ki 6:6, Lam 4:8, Eze 37:16-17 (4), Eze 37:19 (3)

gallows, 8

Est 5:14 (2), Est 6:4, Est 7:9-10 (2), Est 8:7, Est 9:13, Est 9:25

sticks, 5

Num 15:32-33 (2), 1Ki 17:10, 1Ki 17:12, Eze 37:20

carpenters, 3

2Ki 12:11 (2), 1Ch 14:1

staff, 3

2Sa 21:19, 2Sa 23:7, 1Ch 20:5

stock, 2

Jer 2:27, Jer 10:8

stocks, 2

Jer 3:8-9 (2), Hos 4:12

carpenter, 1

Isa 44:12-13 (2)

helve, 1

Deu 19:5

pine, 1

Neh 8:15

planks, 1

Eze 41:25

stalks, 1

Jos 2:6”​

 

[coconut theology]

... The cross ... Yes, tree was a word translated from Stauros ...

Good, I want to look at this word "tree" a bit, ok, and show that it too in the natural, and in scripture shows the "cross":

The “tree”, as a whole itself, is made up of “sticks” [Hebrew: H6086, same as the word “tree” in Deuteronomy 21:22,23], see Numbers 15:32,33:

Numbers 15:32 - And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

Numbers 15:33 - And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.​

These “sticks”, or the various parts of the whole “Tree”, in Scripture, are known as the:

[1] Root/s: [Deuteronomy 29:18; Judges 5:14; 1 Kings 14:15; 2 Kings 19:30; 2 Chronicles 7:20; Job 5:3, 8:17, 14:8, 18:16, 19:28, 28:9, 29:29, 30:4, 31:12; Psalms 52:5, 80:9; Proverbs 12:3,12; Isaiah 5:24, 11:1,10, 14:29,30, 27:6, 37:31, 40:24, 53:2; Jeremiah 1:10, 12:2, 17:8; Ezekiel 17:6,7,9, 31:7; Daniel 4:15,23,26, 7:6, 11:7; Hosea 9:16, 14:5; Amos 2:9; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 3:10, 13:6,21,29; Mark 4:6,17, 11:20; Luke 3:9, 8:13, 17:6; Romans 11:16,17,18, 15:12; 1 Timothy 6:10; Hebrews 12:15; Jude 1:12; Revelation 5:5, 22:16 KJB].

A “root” is that part of the “tree” which is generally “in the earth” [Daniel 4:15,23 KJB], and “beneath” [Job 18:16; Amos 2:9 KJB] or “under” [Ezekiel 17:6 KJB] the soil, or “spreadeth out … by the river” [Jeremiah 17:8 KJB], often “wrapped about the heap … the place of stones” [Job 8:17 KJB].

Any “tree” which was “cut down”, by “the axe” which is “laid unto the root of the trees” [Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9 KJB] or “plucked up by the roots” [Psalms 52:5; Daniel 7:8; Jude 1:12 KJB], it is “twice dead” [Jude 1:12 KJB], having no hope, it is even as the “second death” [Revelation 2:10, 20:6,14, 21:8 KJB].​

[2] Stock/s [Stump, Shoot, Shaft, Stalk/s, Stem]: [Genesis 41:5,22; Exodus 37:17; Leviticus 25:47; Joshua 2:6; 1 Samuel 5:4; Job 14:8; Isaiah 11:1, 40:24, 44:19; Jeremiah 2:27, 3:9, 10:8; Ezekiel 31:14; Daniel 4:15,23,26, Hosea 4:12, 8:7; Acts 13:26; Philippians 3:5 KJB].

As it is written, if a “tree” be cut down, yet not to the root, but to even to the Stump with roots left intact in the earth, it still has hope, “For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.” [Job 14:7 KJB].

King Nebuchadnezzar [II] of [Neo] Babylon, was “purge[d]” [pruned; John 15:2 KJB] in such a way [Daniel 4:15,23,26 KJB], and was delivered from destruction, and shall be in the Kingdom of Heaven [Daniel 4:1-3,36,37 KJB].​

[3] Branch[es] [Bough/s, Rod/s]: [Genesis 30:37,38,39,41, 40:10,12, 49:22; Exodus 4:2,4,17,20, 7:9,10,12,15,17,29,20, 8:5,16,17, 9:23, 10:13, 14:16, 17:5,9, 21:20, 25:31,32,33,35,36, 37:17,18,19,21,22; Leviticus 23:40, 27:32; Numbers 13:23, 17:2,3,5,6,7,8,9,10, 20:8,9,11; Deuteronomy 24:20; Judges 9:48,49; 1 Samuel 14:27,43; 2 Samuel 7:14, 18:9; Nehemiah 8:15; Job 8:6, 9:34, 14:7,9, 15:30,32, 18:16, 21:9, 29:19; Psalms 2:9, 23:4, 74:2, 80:10,11,15, 89:32, 104:12, 110:2, 125:3; Proverbs 10:13, 11:28, 13:24, 14:3, 22:8,15, 23:13,14, 26:3, 29:15; Song of Songs [Solomon] 7:8; Isaiah 4:2, 9:4,14, 10:5,15,24,26,33, 11:1,4, 14:19,29, 16:8, 17:6,9, 18:5, 19:15, 25:5, 27:10,11, 28:27, 30:31, 60:21; Jeremiah 1:11, 10:16, 11:16, 23:5, 33:15, 48:17, 51:19; Lamentations 3:1; Ezekiel 7:10,11, 8:17, 15:2, 17:3,6,7,8,22,23, 19:10,11,12,14, 20:37, 21:10,13, 31:3,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,13,14, 36:8; Daniel 4:12,14,21, 11:7; Hosea 11:6, 14:6; Joel 1:7; Micah 5;1, 6:9, 7:14; Nahum 2:2; Zechariah 3:8, 4;12, 6:12; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 13:32, 21:8, 24:32; Mark 4:32, 11:8, 13:28; Luke 13:19; John 12:13, 15:2,4,5,6; Romans 11:16,17,18,19,21,24; 1 Corinthians 4:21; 2 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 9:4; Revelation 2:27, 11:1, 12:5, 19:15 KJB; see also “barked” [Joel 1:7 KJB]; see also “beam/s” [Genesis 19:8 [roof]; 1 Kings 6:6,9,36, 7:2,3,12; 2 Kings 6:2,5; 2 Chronicles 3:7; Nehemiah 2:8, 3:3,6; Psalms 104:3; Song of Songs [Solomon] 1:7 KJB]]

[4] Leaf[ves]: [Genesis 3:7, 8:11; Leviticus 26:36; 1 King 6:34; Job 13:25; Psalms 1:3; Isaiah 1:30, 6:13, 34:4, 64:6; Jeremiah 8:13, 17:8, 36:23; Ezekiel 17:9, 41:24, 47:12; Daniel 4:12,14,21; Matthew 21:19, 24:32; Mark 11:13, 13:28; Revelation 22:2 KJB]

[5] Knop/s [Bud[s, ded]]: [Genesis 40:10; Exodus 25:31,33,34,35,36, 37:17,19,20,21,22; Numbers 17:8; 1 Kings 6:18, 7:24; Job 14:9, 38:27; Psalms 132:17; Song of Songs [Solomon] 6:11, 7:12; Isaiah 18:5, 27:6, 55:10, 61:11; Ezekiel 7:10, 16:7, 29:21; Hosea 8:7; Hebrews 9:4 KJB; see also “lintel” [Amos 9:1; Zephaniah 2:14 KJB]]

[6] Flower/s [Blossom]: [Exodus 25:31,33,34, 37:17,19,20; Leviticus 15:24,33; Numbers 8:4, 17:5; 1 Samuel 2:33; 1 Kings 6:18,29,32,35, 7:26,49; 2 Chronicles 4:5,21; Song of Songs [Solomon] 2:12, 5:13; Job 14:2, 15:33; Psalms 103:15; Isaiah 5:24, 18:5, 27:6, 28:1,4, 35:1,2, 40:6,7,8; Nahum 1:4; Habakkuk 3:17; 1 Corinthians 7:36; James 1:10,11; 1 Peter 1:24 KJB]

[7] Fruit/s: [Genesis 1:11,12,29, 3:2,3,6, 4:3, 30:2, 43:11; Exodus 10:15, 21:22, 22:29, 23:10; Leviticus 19:23,24,25, 23:39, 25:3,15,,16,19,21,22, 26:4,20, 27:30; Numbers 13:20,26,27; Deuteronomy 1:25, 7:13, 11:17, 22:9, 26:2, 28:4,11,18,33,40,42,51,53, 30:9, 33:14; Joshua 5:12; Judges 9:11; 2 Samuel 9:10, 16:1,2; 2 Kings 8:6, 19:19,29,30; Nehemiah 9:25,36, 10:35,37; Job 31:39; Psalms 1:3, 21:10, 72:16, 92:14, 104:13, 105:35, 107:37, 127:3, 132:11; Proverbs 1:31, 8:19, 10:16, 11:30, 12:12,14, 13:2, 18:20,21, 27:18, 31:16,31; Ecclesiastes 2:5; Song of Songs [Solomon] 2:3, 4:13,16, 6:11, 7:13, 8:11,12; Isaiah 3:10, 4:2, 10:12, 13:18, 14:29, 16:9, 27:6,9, 28:4, 33:9, 37:30,31, 40:10,12, 48:32, 57:19, 65:21; Jeremiah 2:7, 6:19, 7:20, 11:16,19, 12:2, 17:8,10, 21:14, 29:5,28, 32:19; Lamentations 2:20, 4:9; Ezekiel 17:8,9,23, 19:12,14, 25:4, 34:27, 36:8,11,30, 47:12; Daniel 4:12,14,21; Hosea 9:16, 10:1,13, 14:8; Joel 2:22; Amos 2:9, 6:12, 7:14, 8:1,2, 9:14; Micah 6:7, 7:1,13; Habakkuk 3:17; Haggai 1:10; Zechariah 8:12; Malachi 1:12, 3:11; Matthew 3:8,10, 7:16,17,18,19,20, 12:33, 13:8,23,26, 21:19,34,41,43, 26:29; Mark 4:7,8,20,28,29, 11:14, 12:2, 14:25; Luke 1:42, 3:8,9, 6:43,44, 8:8,14,15, 12:17,18, 13:6,7,9, 20:10, 22:18; John 4:36, 12:24, 15:2,4,5,8,16; Acts 2:30; Romans 1:13, 6:21,22, 7:4,5, 15:28; 1 Corinthians 9:7; 2 Corinthians 9:10; Galatians 5:22; Ephesians 5:9; Philippians 1:11,22, 4:17; Colossians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 12:11, 13:15; James 3:17,18, 5:7,18; Jude 1:12; Revelation 18:14, 22:2 KJB; see also “firstfruit/s” [Exodus 23:16,19, 34:22,26; Leviticus 2:12,14, 23:10,17,20; Numbers 18:12, 28:26; Deuteronomy 18:4, 26:10; 2 Kings 4:42; 2 Chronicles 31:5; Nehemiah 10:35,37, 12:44, 13:31; Proverbs 3:9; Jeremiah 2:3; Ezekiel 20:40, 44:30, 48:14; Romans 8:23, 11:16, 16:5; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, 16:15; James 1:18; Revelation 14:4 KJB]]

[8] Seed/s: [Genesis 1:11,12,29, 3:15, 4:25, 7:3, 9:9, 12:7, 13:15,16, 15:3,5,13,18, 16:10, 17:7,8,9,10, 12,19, 19:32,34, 21:12,13, 22:17,18, 24:7,60, 26:3,4,24, 28:4,13,14, 32:12, 35:12, 38:8,9, 46:6,7, 47:19,23,24, 48:4,11,19; Exodus 16:31, 28:43, 30:21, 32:13, 33:1; Leviticus 11:37,38, 12:2, 15:16,17,18,32, 18:21, 19:19, 20:2,3,4, 21:15,17,21, 22:3,4, 26:16, 27:16,30; Numbers 5:28, 11:7, 14:24, 16:40, 18:19, 20:5, 24:7, 25:13; Deuteronomy 4:37, 10:15, 11:9,10, 14:22, 22:9, 28:38,46,59, 30:6,19, 31:21, 34:4; Joshua 24:3; Ruth 4:12; 1 Samuel 2:20, 8:15, 20:42, 24:21; 2 Samuel 4:8, 7:12, 22:51; 1 Kings 2:33, 11:14,39, 18:32; 2 Kings 5:27, 11:1, 17:20, 25:25; 1 Chronicles 16:13, 17:11; 2 Chronicles 20:7, 22:10; Ezra 2:59, 9:2; Nehemiah 7:61, 9:2,8; Esther 6:13, 9:27,28,31, 10:3; Job 5:25, 21:8, 39:12; Psalms 18:50, 21:10, 22:23,30, 25:13, 37:25,26,28, 69:36, 89:4,29,36, 102:28, 105:6, 106:27, 112:2, 126:6; Proverbs 11:21; Ecclesiastes 11:6; Isaiah 1:4, 5:10, 6:13, 14:20, 17:11, 23:3, 30:23, 41:8, 43:5, 44:3, 45:19,25, 48:19, 53:10, 54:3, 55:10, 57:3,4, 59:21, 61:9. 65:9,23, 66:22; Jeremiah 2:21, 7:15, 22:28,30, 23:8, 29:32, 30:10, 31:27,36,37, 33:22,26, 35:7,9, 36:31, 41:1, 46:27, 49:10; Ezekiel 17:5,13, 20:5, 43:19, 44:22; Daniel 1:3, 2:43, 9:1; Joel 1:17; Amos 9:13; Haggai 2:19; Zechariah 8:12; Malachi 2:3,15; Matthew 13:4,19,20,22,23,24,27,31,32,37,38, 17:20, 22:24; Mark 4:26,27,31, 12:19,20,21,22; Luke 1:55, 8:5,11, 13:19, 17:6, 20:28; John 7:42, 8:33,37; Acts 3:25, 7:5,6, 13:23; Romans 1:3, 4:13,16,18, 9:7,8,29, 11:1; 1 Corinthians 15:38; 2 Corinthians 9:10, 11:22; Galatians 3:16,19,29; 2 Timothy 2:8; Hebrews 2:16, 11:11,18; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9; Revelation 12:17 KJB]

 

[coconut theology]

... The cross ... Yes, tree was a word translated from Stauros ...

Good, I want to look at this word "tree" a bit, ok, and show that it too in the natural, and in scripture shows the "cross":

Further, it is written, any “tree” can only bring forth after its “kind” [Genesis 1:11,12 KJB]:

Matthew 7:17 KJB - Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18 KJB - A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 7:19 KJB - Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 12:33 KJB - Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Luke 6:43 KJB - For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.​

Paul the Apostle, in the New Testament quotes Deuteronomy 21:22,23 KJB, in regards to the “tree” that Jesus was hung upon, when he writes:

Galatians 3:13 KJB - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:​

Peter does the same, recorded by Luke, in reference:

Acts 5:30 - KJB - The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39 - And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

1 Peter 2:24 KJB - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.​

Other examples, of others in the Old Testament “hanged on a tree” are found in Genesis 40:19; Joshua 8:29; Esther 2:23 KJB.

Now, since it is written, in many places in Scripture, that any “tree”, including the “tree”, as Paul writes and cites, upon which Jesus was hung, is not simply made up of a “root/s”, nor a “stump”, nor a “seed/s”, nor a “flower/s”, nor a “fruit/s”, nor a “knop/s”, nor a “leaf[ves]”, but incorporating them all, then so also includes, the “branches” which come off of the “stump” [trunk], and for the cross this is known commonly as the 'transverse' or 'transom' “patibulum”, which Jesus carried, further reading, may be done here, for the historical uses of it - Instrument of Jesus' crucifixion - Wikipedia

Let us remember, that Jesus said, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” [John 5:39 KJB]

Jesus hands were “stretched out”, on this “tree”, even to the “right hand” and to the “left”:

Psalms 88:9 KJB - Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.

Romans 10:21 KJB - But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Matthew 27:38 KJB - Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.​

For it is written of Jesus:

Psalms 22:12 KJB - Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

Psalms 22:13 KJB - They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psalms 22:14 KJB - I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Psalms 22:15 KJB - My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Psalms 22:16 KJB - For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalms 22:17 KJB - I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Psalms 22:18 KJB - They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.​

And further:

Matthew 27:37 KJB - And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.​

For Jesus “hands” were “pierced” by the “nails” [plural], one nail in the right hand, the other in the left, while the accusation, His title, above:

John 20:25 KJB - The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.​

Jesus opened his arms wide, as “far as the east is from the west” in His love, to deliver and save:

Psalms 103:10 KJB - He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Psalms 10:3:11 KJB - For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

Psalms 103:12 KJB - As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.​

For the Scriptures declare that He would deliver by His “mighty hand” and “out stretched arm”.

 

[coconut theology]

... The cross ... Yes, tree was a word translated from Stauros, ...

Continuing with this word "tree", let's take a look at a typology even found in the NWT:

Let's add to this study with the WTS/JW own source the NWT translation, and see the typology laid out there, as it is even in the KJB, and any Bible:

While the central root "stock" would be a pole-beam, there would also be the cross-beam, the 'Patiblum', which would be the "branches" coming off the root stock, and thus be a "tree" as Paul and others called it.

Even in the Footnotes of the NWT, they allow for the word "tree":

"... [Acts 5:20 NWT] The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake.*n ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

"... [Acts 10:39 NWT] And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake.* ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

"... [Acts 13:29 NWT] And when they had accomplished all the things written about him, they took him down from the stake and laid him in a tomb.z ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

"... [1 Peter 2:24 NWT] He himself bore our sinsu in his own body on the stake,v so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”w ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]​

Other mentions:

"... [Joshua 8:29 NWT] He hung the king of Aʹi on a stake until the evening, and as the sun was about to set, Joshua gave the order to take his dead body down from the stake.v Then they pitched it at the entrance of the city gate and raised up a great pile of stones over him, which is there to this day. ..."; "... Or “tree.” ..." [1]

"... [2 Samuel 18:9,10,14 NWT] 9 Abʹsa·lom eventually found himself facing the servants of David. Abʹsa·lom was riding on a mule, and the mule went under the thick branches of a large tree, and his head got entangled in the big tree, so that he was suspended in midair* while the mule he had been riding kept going.

10 Then someone saw it and told Joʹab:l “Look! I have seen Abʹsa·lom hanging in a big tree.”

14 To this Joʹab said: “I am not going to waste any more time with you!” So he took three spikes* in his hand and drove them through the heart of Abʹsa·lom while he was still alive in the midst of the big tree. ..." [1]​

In the Typology of 2 Samuel 18:9,10,14 KJB, we read of Absalom [the son of David; whose name means the "Father's peace"] was, because of sin, rebellion against the King, hung upon a tree [by his hair, his glory], and was suspended between Heaven and Earth, and struck with three piercings, or as the NWT says, "three spikes", as large nails, and then in his death buried as wicked.

2 Samuel 18:9 KJB - And Absalom met the servants of David. And Absalom rode upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a great oak, and his head caught hold of the oak, and he was taken up between the heaven and the earth; and the mule that was under him went away.

2 Samuel 18:10 KJB - And a certain man saw it, and told Joab, and said, Behold, I saw Absalom hanged in an oak.

2 Samuel 18:14 KJB - Then said Joab, I may not tarry thus with thee. And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak.​

Just as Jesus, who took our sins upon himself, was hung upon a Tree, the son of David, the Father's peace towards man, suspended between Heaven and Earth, pierced by three nails upon the Cross, then in His death, taken down and buried as with the wicked [Isaiah 53:9 KJB].

Arms raised to the east and west, seeking help.

Pierced with the spear.