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Why Quran rejects crucifixion of Christ by the Jews?

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
He engendered hatred for them in a way that beggars belief.
But he didn't create all of it. The fires of hate were already burning.

The point is, you can't just separate all of the blame (of Jesus's death) and rest it squarely on the shoulders of the Jews. The Romans were at least equally to blame, if not more.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
But he didn't create all of it. The fires of hate were already burning.

The point is, you can't just separate all of the blame (of Jesus's death) and rest it squarely on the shoulders of the Jews. The Romans were at least equally to blame, if not more.

By all accounts the Jews liked Jesus and gathered to hear him speak.. so its unrealistic to blame all Jews (or the Romans) for what the Pharisees and the Sanhedren did. They despised the Jews from Israel anyway.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
By all accounts the Jews liked Jesus and gathered to hear him speak.. so its unrealistic to blame all Jews (or the Romans) for what the Pharisees and the Sanhedren did. They despised the Jews from Israel anyway.
By NT accounts. Are there other accounts besides?

And who despised the Jews?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
By NT accounts. Are there other accounts besides?

And who despised the Jews?

Israel and Judea despised each other. Judea considered the Jews in the north to be Hellenized half breeds.. and they were more prosperous than Judea.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
And? What are his sources? I'm not going to just accept your claim about something that's very important to Jewish-Christian relations just because you're name-throwing.

Why would it be important to Jewish-Christian relations.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
This is pretty sick nonsense. Not to mention the Jews simply did not have that much power, if any, over the Romans, let alone Pilate. It was the Romans who arrested him, it was the Romans who had such a problem with him declaring himself a King in their eyes, it was the Romans who had the authority to put someone to death. This is without mentioning that Jesus was crucified. This punishment was expensive and was reserved generally only for the most serious crime - treason against the Empire. Flogging went along with that and was a normal part of the process. If Pilate really gave a damn (and from what we know of the man he likely didn't, as even the Romans removed him for being too cruel) he could have spared Jesus all of this and had him killed any other way, but he wanted to make an example of the man. Nothing else would suffice.

When the Romans have to remove you from power for being too cruel, a bunch of backwater Jews isn't going to threaten you.

Toss in the previous rebellion more or less established to Rome that it's various Jewish cronies had no power nor influence over the masses thus the idea of semi-autonomy was a farce
 

sooda

Veteran Member
And? What are his sources? I'm not going to just accept your claim about something that's very important to Jewish-Christian relations just because you're name-throwing.

Why don't you study.. This isn't fast food.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

I just watched the video.

The claim that required proof is below:

Israel and Judea despised each other. Judea considered the Jews in the north to be Hellenized half breeds.. and they were more prosperous than Judea.
( link )

I didn't hear proof of that in the video that you provided. Did I miss it?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What happened to Jesus according to Quran?
Was He killed by Romans?
Did He die naturally eventually?
Did Allah took His body up to Himself, while He was alive?

Are you able to say exactly what happened to Jesus from Quran, without just taking guesses, or saying probably so, and so? Is Quran clear on this subject regarding what happened to Jesus? I am looking for an honest discussion.

The Quran does not say what exactly happened to Jesus.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I can't find any other first century claimants like Jesus.

Hezekiah is one. Ha Shamar is another. There were many. I dont know if someone made a list of them in a website, but Josephus mentions some of them in the antiquities of the Jews.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
But he didn't create all of it. The fires of hate were already burning.
Politicians and historians may deliberately promote prejudice for political or nationalistic ends. Hitler was a prime example.
A former member of the Hitler Youth movement, was quoted as saying: “Nazi propaganda first taught us to hate the Jews, then the Russians, then all the ‘enemies of the Reich.’ As a teenager, I believed what I was told. Later on, I learned that I had been deceived.”
As in Nazi Germany and elsewhere, racial or ethnic prejudice has been justified by appeals to nationalism, another source of hatred. We see it in other nations in just the same way. Nationalism seems to spawn the idea of "my country right or wrong".....propaganda works when the other guy is always the bad guy.

The point is, you can't just separate all of the blame (of Jesus's death) and rest it squarely on the shoulders of the Jews. The Romans were at least equally to blame, if not more.

Jesus would not have been arrested unless the Jewish leaders had brought charges against him. Jesus clearly showed them that their charges were groundless, but like their forefathers, they were not open to correction because they didn't think Jesus could be the Messiah. He did not fit their profile and he was always castigating them over their hypocrisy and lack of mercy in dealing with God's people....they were too full of their own importance.

Their Messiah was expected to be a strong political leader who was going to liberate Israel from the yoke of Rome and re-establish the Jewish nation, and elevate them in his kingdom. It didn't play out as they assumed even though Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies written about him. His liberation was a spiritual one and it didn't include those whom John the Baptist called "offspring of vipers"....bound for gehenna.

The Jews were expecting the Messiah in 29 CE according to Daniel's prophesy, but Jesus is the only Messiah who appeared. Despite his lineage, his miracles and his masterful teaching, the majority of Jews were persuaded to reject him. The Jewish leaders of the day bear responsibility for his murder....the Romans only hammered in the nails.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Why don't you study.. This isn't fast food.
This is the type of answer that puts any debate/discussion on hold. "Well, off I go to read who knows how many books by this archeologist with the possibility of finding out that everything he says may just be a wild theory, and then going off to read who knows how many books by other archeologists with opposite positions and then figuring it out for myself." :rolleyes: edit: Not mocking, just saying that if there's some concrete, definitive evidence, I'm sure it could be presented here. A pottery shard, a scroll scrap, something, you know?
Why would it be important to Jewish-Christian relations.
If I've been following correctly, you claim that Judean Jews totally hated Galileen Jews and therefore it makes sense that Jews hated Jesus and therefore, they really are at fault for killing him.
Which brings up another question: If Jesus was really originally from Beth Lehem, and he was from the family of the royal Davidic bloodline, why was he supposedly hated as a Galileen Jew? He wasn't really a Galileen. He just happened to be from Nazareth...
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
even though Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies written about him
Right... Sure he did...
Despite his lineage, his miracles and his masterful teaching
Right...now the only problem is how the NT retroactively changed things in the OT to make everything line up. o_O
Romans only hammered in the nails.
No, of course. The Romans were total puppets of the Jews. Next you'll tell me the Jews exiled themselves of their own free will...
 
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