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New discoveries of 'missing links.'

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You said it perfectly. His misinformation is willful and intentional. Dad twists information around makes up what he wants to believe and says anything just to discredit any intelligent posting. Dad just keeps on typing nonsense. I am beginning to doubt if dad even cares what is in the replies as long as it is to promote dad's agenda to discredit evolution.

Answering dads post is like feeding gremlins after midnight.
Bingo!
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
New evidence of the radiation of species of the earliest reptilian dinosaurs.

A paleontological gold mine to understand the radiation of reptiles

A paleontological gold mine to understand the radiation of reptiles

A new early lizard- like reptile provides insights into the radiation of lepidosaurian reptiles and recovery patterns from the mother of all extinctions

Vellberg is a small village located in the state of Baden-Württemberg, in Southern Germany (approximately 80 km from Stuttgart). With less than 5,000 inhabitants, few would think that this beautiful setting and its surroundings host one of the most important sites in the world to understand the evolution of reptiles. Deposits near Vellberg, dated from the beginning of the Middle Triassic (~240 million years ago), provide one of the few known locations where the early steps in the radiation of reptiles during the Triassic can be studied in detail. The Triassic period started after the Permian-Triassic mass extinction, the largest mass extinction in the history of complex life and represented a key time vertebrate evolution. As I previously discussed here, it is important for us to understand how biodiversity was impacted by the Permian-Triassic mass extinction, and how surviving lineages radiated during the Triassic, as it can teach us about our own ongoing climate crisis.

699344b2-0a29-4b10-b112-6daeacc04986.png

Fig.1. The town of Vellberg, Germany.

Some of the main reasons for the uniqueness of this location have not only to do with the age of its rocks and the fossils embedded within them, but also because many important fossil localities bearing vertebrate fossils in the first 10-15 million years of the Triassic were formed in marine environments. Therefore, Triassic fossil sites preserve mostly marine creatures, rarely providing insights into ongoing changes of vertebrate life on land. The few deposits that have an abundance of terrestrial vertebrates (such as in Southwest Britain and Poland) usually have most fossil specimens found disarticulated and mixed with specimens from other species, sometimes limiting our ability to fully understand their anatomy and placement on the reptile evolutionary tree. Vellberg, on the other hand, preserves a large number of articulated or associated terrestrial skeletons, making it much easier for paleontologists to recognize all preserved elements and attribute them to their respective species.

In recent years, Vellberg has yielded a variety of new species of fossil reptiles that have been revealing fundamental aspects of reptile evolution: most notably one of the oldest turtles ever found that reveals fundamental aspects of the evolution of the turtle skeleton. Besides, there has been recent discoveries of small and delicate bones belonging to some of the earliest members of the lineage comprising modern-day lizards, snakes and tuataras (the later with only one living representatives, inhabiting New Zealand), known as lepidosauromorphs. This is perhaps the most surprising aspect of all about Vellberg. Despite the incredible diversity of more than 10,500 species of modern lizards, plus hundreds of fossil species, you do not need many fingers to count all of the known species of lepidosauromorphs during their first 40 million years of existence. Some of the major reasons for this include the delicate and hard-to-preserve nature of their skeletons, besides the relatively small number of researchers working on their fossils. Therefore, for the entire Triassic, the most species rich localities bearing fossil lepidosauromorphs in the world (Southwest Britain) have only six valid species, mostly known from disarticulated elements only.

c74a9620-6093-4ca3-92fe-7c9cfd8abbb1.png

Fig. 2. Vertebrae diversity from the Vellberg deposits (Schoch & Seegis 2016).

This Thursday, I had the opportunity to publish with two colleagues, Dr. Gabriela Sobral and Dr. Rainer Schoch (from the Staatliches Museum für Naturkunde, in Stuttgart), a new species of early evolving lepidosauromorph from Vellberg, named Vellbergia bartholomaei. This new species has an unusual mosaic of features that were previously unknown to occur together in the same species of Triassic lepidosauromorph, as some of those features characterize different groups of lepidosauromorphs. Such features include the simultaneous retention of a splenial bone in the lower jaw and the location of the dentition (apically on the jaw bone). This aspect of the dentition evolved independently at least five other times within lepidosauromorphs, including most members of the tuatara lineage (rhynchocephalians), of which the oldest known member was found in…Vellberg! The recognition of Vellbergia as one of the first evolving species of the lepidosauromorph tree of life indicates there were not five, but at least six instances of independent acquisition of this mode of tooth implantation. It also shows that evolutionary convergence of this feature was already ongoing among the oldest known lizard-like reptiles.

041ebb2b-7f01-428b-973e-a72fe464ac4d.png

Fig 3. Skull of Vellbergia bartholomaei.

Like most other reptile species from Vellberg, Vellbergia is represented by a tiny individual, with no more than a couple centimeters in skull length. The predominance of such a small bodied fauna is also remarkable for a fossil site of its age. Most fossil sites bearing terrestrial vertebrates from the Middle and Late Triassic are composed of species with quite disparate body sizes, some reaching skull and estimated body masses at least 10 times larger than Vellbergia. The Vellberg fauna resembles more closely older Triassic sites, between 252 and 242 million years old (the first 10 million years of the Triassic and after the Permian-Triassic extinction). The predominance of small bodied organisms after a mass extinction has been suggested to be an evolutionary phenomenon termed Lilliput effect (in honor of the island with tiny inhabitants from Gulliver's Travels). It suggests that small-bodied organisms were better able to cope with the elevated temperatures on Earth (especially in lower latitudes, closer to the equator) following the Permian-Triassic mass extinction, owing to their better capacity for heat exchange. Vellberg, which was located much closer to the equator at 240 million years ago (25⁰S), seems to be among the youngest Triassic localities in the world where a predominance of small bodied organisms is still observed. As no other mechanisms seem to satisfactorily explain the predominance of small bodied organisms in Vellberg, it suggests that the Lilliput effect was a long-lasting event at lower latitudes, for at least 12 million years after the Permian-Triassic extinction.

Vellbergia turns out to be the third species of lepidosauromorph from Vellberg, out of many more yet to come in the future. This means that this site has a true potential to be the most important site in the world to understand the early evolution of lizard-like reptiles: one of my favorite topics. Marked by an underwhelming early fossil record, it is likely that Vellberg will finally provide researchers with a more detailed picture on the earliest steps on the origin of lizards and their kin, which currently represents one of the most poorly understood evolutionary transitions in vertebrate evolution.


Tiago Rodrigues Simões
Alexander Agassiz Postdoctoral Fellow, Harvard University

I am a Postdoctoral Fellow in the Pierce Lab @ Dept. Organismic & Evolutionary Biology/Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University. I work on the early evolution of squamates and on the phylogenetic relationships among squamates and other major reptile lineages. I started my career in my home city (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil), developing research on fossil reptiles at the Museu Nacional/UFRJ, and subsequently moved to Canada, where I obtained my PhD at the University of Alberta and expanded my expertise on phylogenetic methods, functional morphology and macroevolution. I am interested in combining data from living and extinct species, as well as morphological and molecular data, to explore and investigate deep time problems in vertebrate evolution.
 

dad

Undefeated
New evidence of the radiation of species of the earliest reptilian dinosaurs.

A paleontological gold mine to understand the radiation of reptiles

A paleontological gold mine to understand the radiation of reptiles

A new early lizard- like reptile provides insights into the radiation of lepidosaurian reptiles and recovery patterns from the mother of all extinctions

Vellberg is a small village located in the state of Baden-Württemberg, in Southern Germany (approximately 80 km from Stuttgart). With less than 5,000 inhabitants, few would think that this beautiful setting and its surroundings host one of the most important sites in the world to understand the evolution of reptiles. Deposits near Vellberg, dated from the beginning of the Middle Triassic (~240 million years ago), provide one of the few known locations where the early steps in the radiation of reptiles during the Triassic can be studied in detail. The Triassic period started after the Permian-Triassic mass extinction, the largest mass extinction in the history of complex life and represented a key time vertebrate evolution. As I previously discussed here, it is important for us to understand how biodiversity was impacted by the Permian-Triassic mass extinction, and how surviving lineages radiated during the Triassic, as it can teach us about our own ongoing climate crisis.

699344b2-0a29-4b10-b112-6daeacc04986.png

Fig.1. The town of Vellberg, Germany.

Some of the main reasons for the uniqueness of this location have not only to do with the age of its rocks and the fossils embedded within them, but also because many important fossil localities bearing vertebrate fossils in the first 10-15 million years of the Triassic were formed in marine environments. Therefore, Triassic fossil sites preserve mostly marine creatures, rarely providing insights into ongoing changes of vertebrate life on land. The few deposits that have an abundance of terrestrial vertebrates (such as in Southwest Britain and Poland) usually have most fossil specimens found disarticulated and mixed with specimens from other species, sometimes limiting our ability to fully understand their anatomy and placement on the reptile evolutionary tree. Vellberg, on the other hand, preserves a large number of articulated or associated terrestrial skeletons, making it much easier for paleontologists to recognize all preserved elements and attribute them to their respective species.

In recent years, Vellberg has yielded a variety of new species of fossil reptiles that have been revealing fundamental aspects of reptile evolution: most notably one of the oldest turtles ever found that reveals fundamental aspects of the evolution of the turtle skeleton. Besides, there has been recent discoveries of small and delicate bones belonging to some of the earliest members of the lineage comprising modern-day lizards, snakes and tuataras (the later with only one living representatives, inhabiting New Zealand), known as lepidosauromorphs. This is perhaps the most surprising aspect of all about Vellberg. Despite the incredible diversity of more than 10,500 species of modern lizards, plus hundreds of fossil species, you do not need many fingers to count all of the known species of lepidosauromorphs during their first 40 million years of existence. Some of the major reasons for this include the delicate and hard-to-preserve nature of their skeletons, besides the relatively small number of researchers working on their fossils. Therefore, for the entire Triassic, the most species rich localities bearing fossil lepidosauromorphs in the world (Southwest Britain) have only six valid species, mostly known from disarticulated elements only.

c74a9620-6093-4ca3-92fe-7c9cfd8abbb1.png

Fig. 2. Vertebrae diversity from the Vellberg deposits (Schoch & Seegis 2016).

This Thursday, I had the opportunity to publish with two colleagues, Dr. Gabriela Sobral and Dr. Rainer Schoch (from the Staatliches Museum für Naturkunde, in Stuttgart), a new species of early evolving lepidosauromorph from Vellberg, named Vellbergia bartholomaei. This new species has an unusual mosaic of features that were previously unknown to occur together in the same species of Triassic lepidosauromorph, as some of those features characterize different groups of lepidosauromorphs. Such features include the simultaneous retention of a splenial bone in the lower jaw and the location of the dentition (apically on the jaw bone). This aspect of the dentition evolved independently at least five other times within lepidosauromorphs, including most members of the tuatara lineage (rhynchocephalians), of which the oldest known member was found in…Vellberg! The recognition of Vellbergia as one of the first evolving species of the lepidosauromorph tree of life indicates there were not five, but at least six instances of independent acquisition of this mode of tooth implantation. It also shows that evolutionary convergence of this feature was already ongoing among the oldest known lizard-like reptiles.

041ebb2b-7f01-428b-973e-a72fe464ac4d.png

Fig 3. Skull of Vellbergia bartholomaei.

Like most other reptile species from Vellberg, Vellbergia is represented by a tiny individual, with no more than a couple centimeters in skull length. The predominance of such a small bodied fauna is also remarkable for a fossil site of its age. Most fossil sites bearing terrestrial vertebrates from the Middle and Late Triassic are composed of species with quite disparate body sizes, some reaching skull and estimated body masses at least 10 times larger than Vellbergia. The Vellberg fauna resembles more closely older Triassic sites, between 252 and 242 million years old (the first 10 million years of the Triassic and after the Permian-Triassic extinction). The predominance of small bodied organisms after a mass extinction has been suggested to be an evolutionary phenomenon termed Lilliput effect (in honor of the island with tiny inhabitants from Gulliver's Travels). It suggests that small-bodied organisms were better able to cope with the elevated temperatures on Earth (especially in lower latitudes, closer to the equator) following the Permian-Triassic mass extinction, owing to their better capacity for heat exchange. Vellberg, which was located much closer to the equator at 240 million years ago (25⁰S), seems to be among the youngest Triassic localities in the world where a predominance of small bodied organisms is still observed. As no other mechanisms seem to satisfactorily explain the predominance of small bodied organisms in Vellberg, it suggests that the Lilliput effect was a long-lasting event at lower latitudes, for at least 12 million years after the Permian-Triassic extinction.

Vellbergia turns out to be the third species of lepidosauromorph from Vellberg, out of many more yet to come in the future. This means that this site has a true potential to be the most important site in the world to understand the early evolution of lizard-like reptiles: one of my favorite topics. Marked by an underwhelming early fossil record, it is likely that Vellberg will finally provide researchers with a more detailed picture on the earliest steps on the origin of lizards and their kin, which currently represents one of the most poorly understood evolutionary transitions in vertebrate evolution.


Tiago Rodrigues Simões
Alexander Agassiz Postdoctoral Fellow, Harvard University

I am a Postdoctoral Fellow in the Pierce Lab @ Dept. Organismic & Evolutionary Biology/Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University. I work on the early evolution of squamates and on the phylogenetic relationships among squamates and other major reptile lineages. I started my career in my home city (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil), developing research on fossil reptiles at the Museu Nacional/UFRJ, and subsequently moved to Canada, where I obtained my PhD at the University of Alberta and expanded my expertise on phylogenetic methods, functional morphology and macroevolution. I am interested in combining data from living and extinct species, as well as morphological and molecular data, to explore and investigate deep time problems in vertebrate evolution.
So there was a lot of (mostly marine "organisms with calcium carbonate skeletons, especially those reliant on stable CO2 levels to produce their skeletons--according to wiki) creatures that died and left fossil remains. I would look at the possibility that this could have been a result of the fall of man and changes in the world at the time. We start to see a lot of certain types of creatures die, and maybe not reappear later. No great problem for the creation model. If some little lizards or quasi dino reptiles and whatnots died then, it seems to be expected.
In no way does this mean that dinosaurs had to have evolved from those particular species. The millions of years thing is total religion so of course cannot be taken seriously.

No news here.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So there was a lot of (mostly marine "organisms with calcium carbonate skeletons, especially those reliant on stable CO2 levels to produce their skeletons--according to wiki) creatures that died and left fossil remains. I would look at the possibility that this could have been a result of the fall of man and changes in the world at the time. We start to see a lot of certain types of creatures die, and maybe not reappear later. No great problem for the creation model. If some little lizards or quasi dino reptiles and whatnots died then, it seems to be expected.
In no way does this mean that dinosaurs had to have evolved from those particular species. The millions of years thing is total religion so of course cannot be taken seriously.

No news here.

The importance of the discoveries at this site is that the abundant fossils show the evolving species and the predator prey relationship of animals over time in the cyclic deposition of sandstone, shale, and limestone. It is well worth the read of the full illustrated article.

The cyclic deposition of uniform sandstone, shale and limestone cannot form in flood waters described in the Bible. In fact these limestones and the vast deposits of limestones throughout the geologic strata cannot form in flood waters. They can only for gradually over long periods of time (millions of years) in shallow warm seas like as they are forming in Bahamas, in the coral reefs off Australia, and around the volcanic islands in the Pacific.
 

dad

Undefeated
The importance of the discoveries at this site is that the abundant fossils show the evolving species and the predator prey relationship of animals over time in the cyclic deposition of sandstone, shale, and limestone. It is well worth the read of the full illustrated article.
How much time is the issue. Of course there were predators and etc. In that former nature, reproduction was fast, formation of layers was fast, and so to you, it looks like a long time was involved. Then we have the fossils that were preserved not representing a full spectrum of what was alive at the time. We only see some creatures dying and leaving remains. What we do not see is all the other creatures also alive that could not leave remains. At the same time little reptiles were running around playing baby dino games, Adam was alive. Lions were hunting. Wolves were here. Even plants that left no pollen at the time were here! Etc. You are harping on, obsessing on the partial record only. You also do so using the present nature as your blind guide!
The cyclic deposition of uniform sandstone, shale and limestone cannot form in flood waters described in the Bible.
I agree, this site was post fall, pre flood! (by many centuries)
Now, got any tough ones?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How much time is the issue. Of course there were predators and etc. In that former nature, reproduction was fast, formation of layers was fast, and so to you, it looks like a long time was involved. Then we have the fossils that were preserved not representing a full spectrum of what was alive at the time. We only see some creatures dying and leaving remains. What we do not see is all the other creatures also alive that could not leave remains. At the same time little reptiles were running around playing baby dino games, Adam was alive. Lions were hunting. Wolves were here. Even plants that left no pollen at the time were here! Etc. You are harping on, obsessing on the partial record only. You also do so using the present nature as your blind guide!
I agree, this site was post fall, pre flood! (by many centuries)
Now, got any tough ones?

The fact that limestone in the strata takes millions of years to form, as the limestone in the Bermuda platform, Pacific Volcanic islands,and Great Barrier Reef, and the strata of the fossils in the article.
 

dad

Undefeated
The fact that limestone in the strata takes millions of years to form, as the limestone in the Bermuda platform, Pacific Volcanic islands,and Great Barrier Reef, and the strata of the fossils in the article.
Except you have not been here millions of years. How would you know it takes that long to form?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Except you have not been here millions of years. How would you know it takes that long to form?
By research and objective verifiable evidence that leads to how limestone forms over time. You cannot present any evidence that limestone forms any other way.

Still waiting for any evidence. . .
 

dad

Undefeated
By research and objective verifiable evidence that leads to how limestone forms over time. You cannot present any evidence that limestone forms any other way.

Still waiting for any evidence. . .
The only research ever done over any time has been over the last say hundred years or two, no? How does that equip you to talk of untold millions of years? Obviously you are looking at the processes that now go on, and modern nature deposition, stratification and etc and using this to imagine how much time 'must have' been involved in a uniform natured past! That is not research. That is religion.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The only research ever done over any time has been over the last say hundred years or two, no? How does that equip you to talk of untold millions of years? Obviously you are looking at the processes that now go on, and modern nature deposition, stratification and etc and using this to imagine how much time 'must have' been involved in a uniform natured past! That is not research. That is religion.

There is absolutely no evidence that the processes of nature have changed over time. Arguing from ignorance is a fallacy big time.

Still waiting for you to present the evidence that does not exist. . .
 
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