Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

74x12 · Jan 19, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Interesting to read that you deny that you are trinitarian. Surely the word denotes 'a unity of three', not three discrete persons. As I understand it, the root of all trinitarian doctrine is the belief that God is able to dwell amongst men on earth [through the Son], and ultimately to dwell within men [as Holy Spirit].

I appreciate it; however what I believe is not the orthodox trinity view. I don't view God as a unity of three but One and manifests Himself in different ways. Yes He does favor these three main ways: Father, Son and holy Spirit. But that doesn't mean they're not the same person.

LightofTruth · Jan 20, 2020

74x12 said:
That's why He says in Hebrews 10:5 "but a body hast thou prepared me:" Of course God can't die. This is why He needed a human body to be the sacrifice. He humbled Himself to the cross for you. And you turn it around "oh he died so he's not God".

Psalm 40 (Septuagint)
6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require. 7 Then I said, Behold, I come: in the volume of the book it is written concerning me, 8 I desired to do thy will, O my God, and thy law in the midst of mine heart.

Jesus' bodily is the ultimate sacrifice.

But this verse disproves you:

1 John 3:16 in this we have known the love, because he for us his life did lay down, and we ought for the brethren the lives to lay down;

And indeed, by His own words Jesus cannot die unless He lays down His life freely.

John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

A body is NOT a WHO. When the Scripture repeatedly says that "it is Jesus Christ WHO died" . It does not refer to a body only that died, but to Jesus Christ himself. Jesus Christ is the WHO WHO died. The mortal body that he inhabited is a WHAT, not the WHO.
Jesus Christ will never die again, nor will the body that God has prepared for him by raising him from the dead.

LightofTruth · Jan 20, 2020

74x12 said:
Consider it accepted then.

Of course He had a Father and a God. He was human being!

Look why He is called the Son of God:

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

So because He is literally fathered by the holy Ghost; I quote "therefore" He'll be called the Son of God. So the holy Spirit literally fathered Him in the womb and so He's literally the Son of God by birth.

If HE was a human being then HE cannot be the ONE WHO was HIS God.
"He" refers to the ONE person. Jesus is ONE person (HE) and his Father and God is another person (HE).
They are NOT the same HE(person).
Even Trinitarians understand that simple truth.

74x12 · Jan 20, 2020

LightofTruth said:
A body is NOT a WHO. When the Scripture repeatedly says that "it is Jesus Christ WHO died" . It does not refer to a body only that died, but to Jesus Christ himself. Jesus Christ is the WHO WHO died. The mortal body that he inhabited is a WHAT, not the WHO.
Jesus Christ will never die again, nor will the body that God has prepared for him by raising him from the dead.

Every human is body, soul and spirit. Not just body but they ahve a soul and spirit as well. Jesus was no different. The only difference is that His soul and Spirit are one with God.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course when He died Jesus' Spirit left His body because it was dead. And that's what happens to anyone who dies by the way.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

But, what is so interesting about Jesus' death is that at the same time the Spirit left His body the Spirit of God also was symbolically leaving the holiest of holies in the temple.

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

So, it's clear that the "veil" of the temple represents Jesus own body and within is the holiest place. Or the place where the Spirit of God is. And when Jesus died, the Spirit left both His body and symbolically left the temple also. This means that Jesus was basically God veiled in human flesh.

So of course the holy Spirit although He can't die. He did take on the death and resurrection of Christ. It's clear from scriptures. So yes God did die and rise from the dead in Jesus Christ.

In Romans 8:9-10 we see no distinction between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. These are spoken of as the same exact Spirit. And, we find that it is by the Spirit of Christ that we have resurrection power in us. This means when anyone receives the Spirit of Christ their body is dead like His body died. And their Spirit lives like He lives. So that is "resurrection power" through the Spirit of Christ. And that power is available to us because He died first and rose from the dead.

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

LightofTruth said:
If HE was a human being then HE cannot be the ONE WHO was HIS God.
"He" refers to the ONE person. Jesus is ONE person (HE) and his Father and God is another person (HE).
They are NOT the same HE(person).
Even Trinitarians understand that simple truth.

Well, post your scripture you're referencing. You aren't citing a verse.

LightofTruth · Jan 21, 2020

74x12 said:
Every human is body, soul and spirit. Not just body but they ahve a soul and spirit as well. Jesus was no different. The only difference is that His soul and Spirit are one with God.

When it comes to the creation of man, Moses is the authority. Moses specifically tells us that man was formed from the dust of the ground and BECAME a living soul when God breathed the breath (spirit) of life into the man.
Therefore, a living, breathing man (or animal) is called a living soul according to the Scriptures. And when the soul ceases to breathe, he becomes a dead soul. And the man, which was formed in the image of God, returns to the dust he was made from.

The spirit or breath of life that was given to the man returns to God who gave it. The spirit or breath is simply a vital principle of life which caused the man to become a living soul.

exchemist · Jan 21, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Nothing you posted so far, including any of the scriptures you posted, address anything in the post you are reaponding to. It is your OP not mine. Did you want to have another go? Your OP's title is "Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts" Now so what?

Are you saying we ignore the Gospel of JOHN which is the only gospel that was witten by one of the APOSTLES that eye witnessed everything that JESUS said and did and the rest of the bible that shows the divinity of JESUS?

Your claims to the three gospels seems to be an argument of silence - because nothing is mentioned in them on Christs devinity, then it must not be true despite the gospel of JOHN being the only eyewitness account of the four gospels and the rest of the bible disagreeing with you. You can ignore my post if you want to it is up to you but please don't try and pretend that you addressed it when you clearly haven't

I can quote bible verses to and they do not teach what you do. Here you go....

John 14:7-10 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 8:58 I am telling you the truth,” Jesus replied. “Before Abraham was born, ‘I AM’ (see Exodus 3:14)

John 12:45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

John 10:37-38 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.

John 16:15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

John 1:1-4; 14 [1], In the beginning was the Word, and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. [2], The same was in the beginning with God. [3], ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE . [4], In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELLED AMONG US AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH

John 20:28-29 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and MY GOD!” Jesus said to him, “Do you believe because you see me? How happy are those who believe without seeing me

Luke 22:69 But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.

Luke 22:70 And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."

Colossians 2:9 For in Him (Chrsit) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

Philippians 2:6-11 [6], Who (Christ), being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7], But made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8], And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross. [9], Why God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10], That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11], And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 1:8 About the Son, however, God said: “YOUR KINGDOM O GOD, will last forever and ever! You rule over your people with justice.

Titus 2:12-13 That grace instructs us to give up ungodly living and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this world, as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST will appear.

2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ

..........

God's Word says we must live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not some of it *MATTHEW 4:4.

Hope this helps.

Yes. When I read the OP, my first thought was what then did Jesus mean by saying "Before Abraham was, I am".

One might argue that St John's gospel, being written later than the synoptic gospels, and being more overtly theological, might have invented this for the sake of inserting the theology that had evolved by the time it was written. But, if one accepts that gospel as authentic, it seems fairly clear.

LightofTruth · Jan 21, 2020

74x12 said:
Every human is body, soul and spirit. Not just body but they ahve a soul and spirit as well. Jesus was no different. The only difference is that His soul and Spirit are one with God.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course when He died Jesus' Spirit left His body because it was dead. And that's what happens to anyone who dies by the way.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

But, what is so interesting about Jesus' death is that at the same time the Spirit left His body the Spirit of God also was symbolically leaving the holiest of holies in the temple.

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

So, it's clear that the "veil" of the temple represents Jesus own body and within is the holiest place. Or the place where the Spirit of God is. And when Jesus died, the Spirit left both His body and symbolically left the temple also. This means that Jesus was basically God veiled in human flesh.

So of course the holy Spirit although He can't die. He did take on the death and resurrection of Christ. It's clear from scriptures. So yes God did die and rise from the dead in Jesus Christ.

In Romans 8:9-10 we see no distinction between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. These are spoken of as the same exact Spirit. And, we find that it is by the Spirit of Christ that we have resurrection power in us. This means when anyone receives the Spirit of Christ their body is dead like His body died. And their Spirit lives like He lives. So that is "resurrection power" through the Spirit of Christ. And that power is available to us because He died first and rose from the dead.

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Well, post your scripture you're referencing. You aren't citing a verse.

It's important to note that Jesus was a living soul who had the breath or spirit of life just like any other man. However, he was also indwelt by the Holy Spirit of the Father which allowed him to say and do the things he did.
When Jesus was on the cross, the Holy Spirit that had been indwelling him, left. And Jesus said, "My God, why has thou forsaken me". Then, soon after, Jesus died, and his spirit or breath of life was commended to his God.
Jesus was then a dead soul because the vital principle of the life of all man is the spirit or breath of life. His dead soul was put in the grave. and three days later God raised him from the dead and gave his life back to him.

Iymus · Jan 21, 2020

74x12 said:
I appreciate it; however what I believe is not the orthodox trinity view. I don't view God as a unity of three but One and manifests Himself in different ways. Yes He does favor these three main ways: Father, Son and holy Spirit. But that doesn't mean they're not the same person.

I'm not even going to mention adjectives at this point;

1. Do the pronouns of the bible correlate with your logic?

2. Does the definitions of pronouns change when it comes to the bible?

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

LightofTruth · Jan 21, 2020

Iymus said:
I'm not even going to mention adjectives at this point;

1. Do the pronouns of the bible correlate with your logic?

2. Does the definitions of pronouns change when it comes to the bible?

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I suppose if one is going to say Father and Son are the same person they might as well say that Isaac, who is the only begotten son of Abraham, are also the same person.
They may be said to be the same in spirit whereby one is as the other, but not the same person.
For example, Jesus referred to John as Elijah because John had come in the spirit of Elijah. But John and Elijah were two separate persons.
In the same way, Jesus can be referred to as the Father by coming in the Spirit of the Father, but they are not the same person.

Muffled · Jan 21, 2020

Unveiled Artist said:
I'm misreading something.

Jesus stated that Only God is good (not him).

Why do you call, me, good? Only god is good (no one else: not me. not you. no one else but god).

He's pointing away from himself to emphasis he isn't god (since god is good) but only god is good. He is the medium between god and man-the son-but by that statement he is literally saying "why call me good? I'm not good, only god is good."

The "only" is the key that differentiates him from being god instead of the bible saying he the son and intermediary between god and man.

If jesus was god, he would say he is good not Only his father. He would probably say, "I am good as well as the father; I'm equal to god; I am god".

Can you rephrase that because I don't see how those two statements say he is god when he is pointing away from himself and other people to only focus on one god in heaven both the god of the jews and the god of pagan converts.

I believe you will find that isn't in the text.

I believe he is attempting to get the rich young ruler to think of Him as God.

I believe it isn't a differentiation.

I believe it is unnecessary for Him to say that since the rich young ruler has already said it.

I believe that never happened and isn't in the text.

I believe there are many verses where Jesus indicates He is God. One has to take the whole text of what He says into consideration when making an interpretation. Your interpretation doesn't do that.

Muffled · Jan 21, 2020

LightofTruth said:
Trinitarians worship a Triune God. For them, the One true God is a Triune God. If the One True God is a Triune God then the One true God cannot be the Father alone. Nor could it be the Son alone.

The One True God that Jesus worships is his God and Father alone.

I believe God was alone throughout the OT except in prophecies of Jesus.

Muffled · Jan 21, 2020

Iymus said:
I find it amazing at times. There are direct verses that deny Jesus of being the only true God.

Yet nonbelievers will find indirect verses; and use sorcery and strong divination to confess Jesus is Lord God and the only true God.

Joh 10:36 KJV Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joh 20:17 KJV Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

1Jn 5:5 KJV Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 3:12 KJV Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Joh 8:42 KJV Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 KJV Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

The God and Father of Jesus is God himself to the brethren and disciples of Jesus.

Eph 1:3 KJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 KJV Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

I believe there are not and everything I write I write by the Spirit of God.

Iymus · Jan 21, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe there are not and everything I write I write by the Spirit of God.

1. Have you examined John 17:3 along with 1 John 5:20?

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

2. Is God the only true? Or is God the only true God along with the Son of God?

3. Are we in the Son of God because he is the only true God or are we in the Son of God because God appointed him heir of all things and used him to make the worlds?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

74x12 · Jan 21, 2020

Iymus said:
I'm not even going to mention adjectives at this point;

1. Do the pronouns of the bible correlate with your logic?

2. Does the definitions of pronouns change when it comes to the bible?

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

If you say no one has seen God then who did the prophets see? Isaiah, Ezekiel, Abraham, Daniel and Moses? But what they saw was not the form of God in all His unveiled glory but they saw manifestations of God. That's what Jesus is. Like in 1 Timothy 3:16.

That's why you can see Jesus. He reveals/declares the invisible God.

74x12 · Jan 21, 2020

LightofTruth said:
I suppose if one is going to say Father and Son are the same person they might as well say that Isaac, who is the only begotten son of Abraham, are also the same person.
They may be said to be the same in spirit whereby one is as the other, but not the same person.

You can't limit God by comparing Him to Abraham and Isaac. God is unlimited.

Unveiled Artist · Jan 21, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe you will find that isn't in the text.

I believe he is attempting to get the rich young ruler to think of Him as God.

I believe it isn't a differentiation.

I believe it is unnecessary for Him to say that since the rich young ruler has already said it.

I believe that never happened and isn't in the text.

I believe there are many verses where Jesus indicates He is God. One has to take the whole text of what He says into consideration when making an interpretation. Your interpretation doesn't do that.

I can't make sense of your replies with the color/bold. I'd have to change it to black/plain to understand it....

Iymus · Jan 21, 2020

74x12 said:
You can't limit God by comparing Him to Abraham and Isaac. God is unlimited.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Iymus · Jan 21, 2020

74x12 said:
If you say no one has seen God then who did the prophets see? Isaiah, Ezekiel, Abraham, Daniel and Moses? But what they saw was not the form of God in all His unveiled glory but they saw manifestations of God. That's what Jesus is. Like in 1 Timothy 3:16.

That's why you can see Jesus. He reveals/declares the invisible God.

But is not the only wise invisible God who is Lord God the Father. God our Father never died.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

LightofTruth · Jan 21, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe God was alone throughout the OT except in prophecies of Jesus.

It seems God was not alone because He used the angels to obey His commands and to do His will.

LightofTruth · Jan 21, 2020

74x12 said:
You can't limit God by comparing Him to Abraham and Isaac. God is unlimited.

The language is the same. Jesus is the son of the Father just as Isaac is the son of Abraham.
It's absurd to say that Jesus is the only begotten son if he is the same person as the one who is his father.
Father and son are never the same person. it's common sense..

Proof Jesus said he is not God in atleast 3 Gospel accounts

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